In yesterday’s bonus episode of Undisclosed, I mentioned that I agreed with Colin about how Jay’s borrowing of Adnan’s car and phone appeared to be directly tied to their involvement in weed dealing, and further that, based on the calling patterns from the cell records, it appeared that Jay had been regularly borrowing Adnan’s car/phone on Wednesdays during the time that Adnan should have been at track. Since I’ve gotten a few questions about it today from listeners curious about it, I figured I’d put up a quick summary of the records I’m referencing.
First off, though, I should note that any “drug dealing” at issue would be the type of “drug dealing” that necessitates the use of scare quotes — there is no suggestion that anything more serious was going on here than teenagers providing pot to other teenagers. Moreover, based on Jay’s statements in his first police interview, whatever he was involved in was clearly some small time stuff, based on the total dollar amounts involved:
(Side note: I wish the police had actually gotten a copy of this check, but I guess they knew it looked really bad for their “Adnan blackmailed Jay into helping with a murder” story.)
So with that in mind, here’s what the phone records show:
Days on which (a) Adnan had a cellphone1; (b) Woodlawn had track practice2; and (3) Adnan was eligible to be at track practice3:
- Jan. 13
- Jan. 26
- Jan. 27
- Feb. 1
- Feb. 2
- Feb. 3
- Feb. 4*
- Feb. 5
Days on which Adnan should have been at track practice, but on which there was phone activity inconsistent with Adnan being at track practice4 from 3:30 to 5:00pm:
- Jan. 13
- Jan. 27
- Feb. 1
- Feb. 3
Days on which Adnan should have been at track practice, but between 3:30 and 5:00pm there were calls made from Adnan’s phone to Patrick, “a guy [Jay] bought marijuana from a whole lot” (2/04/00 Tr. 134):
- Jan. 13
- Jan. 27
- Feb. 3
Days on which Adnan should have been at track practice, but between 3:30 and 5:00pm there were calls made to NHRN Cathy (who was Jay’s friend, and did not know who Adnan was):
- Jan. 27
- Feb. 3
Days on which Adnan’s phone made calls originating on either L689B (a.k.a. “the Leakin Park tower”) or L653C (tower on Edmonson Ave., south of Leakin Park):
- Jan. 13
- Jan. 27
Weed dealers (a) who sold weed to Jay; and (b) who, according to AT&T’s maps, Jay had to drive through L689B and L653C’s coverage areas in order to get to their houses:
- Patrick.
Woodlawn HS depicted top left. Leakin Park is the grassy area to the center/right of image. Cell towers are marked by triangles. Blue line marks Cooks Avenue, which is mentioned repeatedly in Jay’s stories, and which both L653C and L689B could provide coverage for.
In sum, there is a correlation between (a) Wednesdays that Adnan should have been at track and (b) times when the phone activity shows calls to people only Jay would be calling. Similarly, there is also a correlation between (a) days that Adnan’s phone made calls to a weed dealer that lived near Leakin Park, and (b) days that Adnan’s phone made calls originating on L689B and L653C.
You can draw your own conclusions as to what else this pattern of activity may represent, but it does show that Jay being in possession of Adnan’s phone on a Wednesday afternoon during track practice would not have been an unusual event during this time frame.
-Susan
1 Adnan got his cellphone on January 12th, and available cell records run through February 18th.
2 There were track meets — and therefore no track practices — on January 12th, 25th, and 28th, and Woodlawn High School was either on a break, had a snow day, or was on a half-day exam schedule on January 14th, 15th, 18th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, and 29th.
Additionally, I’ve only considered here the time period from January 12th – February 5th, due to the fact that Adnan does not appear to have regularly attended track practice following that date. The track meet on January 28th was the last regularly scheduled competition, and although the track season technically continued after, only the school’s top athletes would be competing in the remaining championship meets, Adnan not among them. So although Adnan continued to make sporadic appearances at practices following the last regular season meet, his attendance is reported to have significantly dropped off and it does not appear he went much or at all after the first week of February.
3 Per a track coach interviewed by the detectives, students who had missed school were not eligible to participate in athletics programs that afternoon. Adnan was out of school for a religious holiday on January 19th, and marked as absent on the 25th. He is also marked as absent on February 4th according to one record, but no absence is marked on another, so it’s not completely clear if he was eligible for track that day.
4 January 26th and February 4th also show some activity during these time periods, but not activity would be inconsistent with his attendance at track on those days, so I’ve not included them on this list. On January 26th, there was a call to check voicemail at 4pm, and on February 4th, there was a 10 second call to Adnan’s friend Peter at 4pm. Both calls were on towers that would be expected for a call made from Woodlawn High School.
The View From LL2 
Susan, you know I love you, but you are a young ‘un. One used to (in the old days like the 90’s) get back “cancelled checks” in the mail from the bank when the check was cashed. It was cashed. And then Jay would have received the “cancelled check” with his bank statement. 🙂
Okay fine in that case I apologize to Jay, he’s only partially failed to pay back the money for the weed he somehow didn’t buy. Or something.
But then, the date of the transaction should have been available from other sources, not just Jay. Unfortunately, the cops did subpoena Adnan’s bank records, but there’s no copy present in the police or defense file, so there’s no way to know what it showed.
You’re still awesome Susan. LOL. The transaction definitely would have been available.
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I think Jay is using the wrong word when he says canceled. Before checks were tracked electronically, you could get the check back from the bank after it cleared, right?
No, I believe that “canceled” is the correct verb. In olden days, when checks were cashed or deposited, they were ink stamped by the bank, which then served to “cancel” them as a vehicle for the transfer of funds. This is similar to how stamps are “canceled” once an item of mail has been posted.
Canceled is the right word, for those too young to remember the world before electronic payments. When the bank “canceled” a check, it means they have processed it and transferred the funds to the person who deposited it, then ink-stamped the check so it could not be used again. Sounds counter-intuitive, but that’s what it means. When the check is canceled, it means it’s been paid.
Many thanks. I’m in awe & more than a little jealous of your productivity!
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Thanks for the follow up Susan. I was one of the people asking and this is exactly the info I was looking for! This explains so much about the Adnan/Jay relationship, the borrowing of the car, Jay picking Adnan up at practice more than once (according to Will), etc. Looking forward to hearing more in February after the hearings!
Susan, after listening to the special episode I just wanted you to know I don’t think you speak too quickly and that you, Ravia and Colin are a pleasure to listen to! Thanks for all the work, this is very interesting!
OK, Susan, good work. Very plausible that Jay and Adnan were drug dealing associates but what’s the connection to Haes death? Especially as you say: it’s small time high school weed dealing… So presumably Hae was not killed by some big time heavy drugs dealing mobster because of Adnan or Jay? Sadly your revelation also shows that Adnan and Jay were/are capable of keeping secrets and covering up with lies. Adnan seems like he’s kept a secret and covered up a massive lie since 1999. Not saying he killed Hae, just that he is keeping a secret and it must be pretty important for him to almost prefer jail to freedom to keep it.
It doesn’t take big time mobster drug dealers for violence to get involved. That’s a myth perpetuated by the media. Small time idiot drug dealers kill people all the time, just like startled small-time burglars kill people in their homes even though they didn’t intend to at the outset.
So Jay owes Adnan $50 with 17 years of interest and we’re not sure what price can be put on ages 17-35 of Adnan’s life if he’s exonerated. Susan are you attending the PCR hearing?
But on the 13th Jay & Adnan ping Leakin Park tower twice just after 7pm, around an hour after getting a call from the police down near Cathy’s house. A time at Cathy’s when Jay & Adnan have already smoked weed so they don’t need anymore.
Why wouldn’t Adnan have said “we went & bought dope at Patrick’s after Cathy’s” if that’s what they did do? Would Adnan rather live a life in prison than tell that info?
Where does Jay & Adnan go around an hour after the Leakin Park pings? Was it not in the area where the car was then dropped off.
Big problem is that Adnan can not account for these two hours from after the police called to shortly after 8pm. That is Adnans biggest problem and why he was convicted together with Jays testimony.
According to Jay, this is when Adnan went back home, and didn’t come back for several hours. They didn’t actually go to Leakin Park until around midnight…according to Jay. So, the 7PM *incoming calls* are largely irrelevant since Jay’s Intercept interview, except that they show them being near Patrick’s house, where drugs could have been obtained before or after smoking a joint (there’s no general rule on that.)
If Bilal had not been arrested he very likely would have testified that Adnan was at the mosque from 7 to 8pm.
There is absolutely no proof or even any reason to be at all confident that Adnan was with Jay around 7pm. It could very easily have been another person entirely
You are missing a huge point and should go to the relevant pages on this blog. The “ping” evidence was wrong in numerous ways. The records do not show that the phone pinged in Leakin Park.
I guess my reply was irrelevant to the point about the calls around 7 pm going through cell tower L689B. Jay and Adnan could have been on their way to a weed dealer’s house as Susan suggests. It’s just that I happen to think they weren’t and that Adnan was at mosque and that Jay was in Leakin Park helping the real murderer dig the grave.
Did Jay write in the memo line of the check “Not for weed”?
Wow!! The more I read and listen from all the way down in Australia the more I cannot comprehend how Adnan has not been released pending appeal. I’m really struggling to understand how with all this doubt he still has to wait behind bars!!!
Are his full cell records available to view somewhere online? I’m curious in that approx two month period what his late night phone habits were. Did he regular use his phone after 10:30 at night? On the 13th, there are no calls after 10:30 pm. He paged Hae three times the prior night around midnight but incredulously never paged her again? I respect all the efforts you have put forth and feel that you more than disproved the State’s case. However a not guilty verdict does not equate to actual innocence.
I was under the impression he called her parents’ home phone three times the previous night rather than paging her. Innocent or guilty it’s hardly incredulous that he didn’t call her parents home again once she was missing, he’d just be pestering her family?
Perhaps Susan can clarify if Adnan ever paged Hae from his cell phone. I thought even the existence of a pager for Hae at the time of her murder was under some doubt.
Good point Alex about calling her house vs. pager. But if he’s calling her three different times the night before (“just to give her my cell phone number”) between 11:30 – 12:30 when he simply could have waited until school the next morning, it doesn’t strike me as the same personality that wouldn’t try to page her at least 1 time after she went missing and before her body was found? I guess this blog isn’t the right place to ask these questions, because Susan is not an unbiased investigator looking for the truth; rather looking through a litigation/legal lens to debunk the conviction. His full phone records and more information from Adnan could be more helpful, but I suspect it won’t come out, especially if it increases suspicion that Adnan was involved. Questions like: Where was Adnan going between 11:30-12:30 the school night before Hae went missing? 3 calls to Hae from 3 different cell towers (not nearest his house where his earlier calls were from) including one in downtown Baltimore? I thought his parents were strict? Did he use his phone every night after 10:30pm between Jan 14th and Feb 28th? If so, the fact that his phone was unused after 10:30pm on the 13th (when Jay most recently has said the body was buried…and yes, I’m aware of his varying stories…but this one actually aligns best with lividity evidence) would be interesting to know. How often does Adnan/Jay talk after Jan. 13th. Both have denied being close friends, but would the phone records tell a different story? So many questions…
I don’t feel comfortable linking to the source, but there isn’t such a decipherable pattern in his calling. There are some nights where he stops calling early, and some nights where it goes into the late hours. The towers pinged on the night of the 13th are consistent with the towers pinged during those times on other nights as well. So, either his parents aren’t strict and he’s hanging out somewhere, he’s sneaking out, or certain towers just get pinged from his house sometimes regardless of how far away they are.
Good information TJ – thanks!
Great comments. Not enough attention is paid to the days before Hae disappeared. I’ve been waiting for discussion on those 3 calls the night before from 3 different towers. Very odd. State did not prove Adnan’s guilt. But doesn’t mean he’s innocent. I’ve always felt the reason he remains silent is because the State’s story is 100% false. And Jay has actually managed to keep what he knows a secret. Adnan will likely walk free. If so let’s hope he joins the search for Hae’s killer. If not I think we can put 2 and 2 together.
This is where I get lost. When we use the “facts” of the case to figure out who called who and where from etc etc. When it seems to me that all the “facts” in this case are suspect at best. If some of the story is made up (by Jay or Jenn or, worse, the cops) then how can any of it be relied on?
I, for one, agree with you 100%.
For Adnan’s appeal the attorneys probably have to work with the present evidence. But really, to find who actually did this, investigators should start from scratch.
Here is why I don’t think it’s that big a deal that Adnan didn’t page Hae after 1/12. 1. I personally buy the theory that her BFFs (Krista, etc) were all paging her and keeping Adnan updated. If she’s not calling them back, why would she call Adnan? Remember, 17 year old boy. And 2. this is total speculation, but we know that a lot of the group thought initially that Hae had run off with Don. I can imagine a scenario whereby a 17 YO ex boyfriend who may feel a little jealous would think to himself “if she’s with another guy, then I’M certainly not calling her to beg her to come back.” Like I said, it’s just my speculation but to me this is the more likely explanation of why he didn’t try to page her. He was concerned, but didn’t want to appear weak if she was with her new BF.
I feel the opposite with Don, however. He had no connection to Hae’s friends or family, had no method of staying in the loop on where she was, had plans with her that she never showed up for, was apparently her boyfriend, yet never tried to get in contact? To me this is much fishier and far less reasonable than Adnan.
well he ‘says’ he had plans and she never showed up..but I smell a rat, don’t you?
Adnan called 7-9 people the evening of the 12th, when he got his cell phone, presumably primarily to give them his number, or just say hi from his new cell phone. This “called Hae 3 times” thing is getting a little old. The first two calls were 2 seconds each. He and Hae seem to have worked out a system so he could call her house without her parents knowing. So, in essence, he spoke to her one time, for 84 seconds, to tell her about his new cell phone, just like he did with a bunch of other people. There is nothing sinister here, it is completely normal.
I was under the impression their system was that Adnan would call, hang up, then call back 2-3 minutes later when Hae was calling time/temperature or something so she could click over from call waiting so the phone wouldn’t ring. 3 calls 30 minutes apart does not indicate a system was being used. If he thinks it’s urgent enough to continue to try to reach her at 12:30 pm just to give his cell phone number out, that personality type doesn’t mesh with someone who doesn’t even attempt to page her in the 6 weeks following. Sinister? absolutely not. Suspicious? yes.
That’s obviously not the system here, because he doesn’t call back 2-3 minutes later in these cases. He called at 11:27, 12:01, and 12:35, so roughly 30 minutes apart each time. There is no way he spoke to her the first two tries, so those have to be signal calls. You’re reading urgency here, but it could just as easily be “well, I’m still awake, I’ll try Hae one more time”. The final call was 84 seconds, which is pretty much in line with most of his other outgoing calls that night (mostly 1-4 minutes). It really has nothing to do with not trying to page her after that, that is a separate issue. It’s not even proven that he didn’t try to page her since the police never bothered to pull Hae’s pager records, just that he didn’t try to page her from his cell phone. I’ll concede that he probably didn’t try to page her, but guess what, neither did Don. Neither did probably a lot of her friends. I know lots of people get hung up on this, but this explanation resonates with me. Hae had a group of friends, and it makes sense that me that if Adnan knew that Krista and Aisha (I think it was them) had tried to contact her and failed, then he took that at face value. Why on earth would Hae respond to him but not them?
And, for what it’s worth, it does NOT make sense to me that Don didn’t try to contact her. He’s not in the group of friends. I don’t understand why he didn’t try to contact her (again, we don’t have the pager records or Don’s phone records, so we can’t be sure, but he pretty much admitted that he never tried to call her).
Well said. I think if you step back and consider everything without staring at the details too long, both Adnan and Don are equally suspicious (assuming you don’t believe anything out of Jay’s mouth). However the investigation was so one-sided that 16 years later we are left with a boatload of details and records regarding Adnan so we can use that to debunk theories and certainly the State’s case…but at the end of the day, he doesn’t have a solid alibi for large portions of the afternoon and late that night. On the flip side we have so little information about Don. It’s easier to create a narrative and fill in more blanks, especially with the fishy time-card details. And to think how easy it would have been to confirm his alibi at the time.
If you look at one of Don’s interviews, he says that on the night of the 12th, he was on the phone with Hae from around 11:00 p.m. until 2:00 a.m. or something (I can’t remember the exact times). If she had call waiting, it could have been that when Adnan called, she clicked over and either said “I’ll call you back” quickly, or just clicked over and hung up on him. Or she could have just let it ring until Adnan hung up. If that’s the case, you could speculate that Don asked who kept calling her (three times during their conversation), and he may have gotten upset or jealous if she told him it was Adnan, her ex boyfriend. [Motive? Maybe this led to a fight, left unresolved at the end of the night, and then she got a page from him at school the next day asking to talk it out? All just speculation]. If she did not have call waiting, then Adnan would have gotten a busy signal, and perhaps he just kept trying again later until she finally picked up. Either way, it sounds perfectly normal to me that he might have called her three times that night just to give her his new number.
That’s a very interesting point about Hae talking to Don. If Hae did not have call waiting and Adnan got a busy signal when he called, I wonder if that would have showed up as a 2 second call in the records?
He had to have reached her, she wrote down his phone number next to her diary entry about Don that night. 2 seconds is long enough to click over on call waiting to tell Adnan, “call you later” or something.
Matt: I know he reached her on the 3rd call. We discussed that above. I am asking what if she did NOT have call waiting and she was talking to Don the first two times he called. Does a call show up in the call log if the caller gets a busy signal, and if so, what does that call look like?
In Serial, Adnan talked about the system they used to talk late at night, using call waiting to avoid Hae’s phone ringing, so it’s a reasonable conclusion that she had call waiting. If you believe Don’s story that they talked until 3 am, then you could conclude that Adnan’s 84 second conversation happened while Don was holding on the other line.
Very good point. I hadn’t thought about the call waiting. I would have redialed too if I was trying to reach someone.
The first person Adnan called with his new number was Nisha.
Jay’s Intercept interview does NOT satisfy the lividity evidence at all. This isn’t my theory, it’s backed by the evidence we can view for ourselves (the autopsy report). And it is broken down in Undisclosed #5 and addendum to it. That episode is very revealing.
In order for Hae’s lividity to be full frontal, Hae has to be lying face down (prone) for at least 8 to 10 hours, laid out. She could not have been curled up and squashed into the trunk of her car from 3pm to midnight.
And the way I read the autopsy report her face was also in full frontal lividity, as in, she was literally face down.
Click to access autopsy-report.pdf
It’s pretty clear Jay is unaware of this in his recent interview. He’s probably trying to fit his story to the change in what is now known about the ping evidence.
Great post. This is similar to what I’ve been arguing on Reddit recently. People find the “Leakin Park Ping” so damning because that tower is pinged so rarely in Adnan’s cell records. But if you restrict your sample to days that are *like* 1/13/1999 then it’s actually not rare at all.
This is why people who are determined to believe Adnan is guilty come up with ridiculous theories about how Adnan was spooked on 1/27 due to Jay’s arrest and started calling all of Jay’s friends while going to “check on the body” in Leakin Park. This theory usually hinges on Stephanie telling Adnan about Jay getting arrested, but the timing doesn’t work at all. If Stephanie tells Adnan at school, then why does Adnan all of a sudden get frantic at 4:30? And how would Stephanie even know that Jay was arrested in the first place unless Jay was already released and told her, in which case why is Adnan calling Jay’s *friends* instead of just calling *Jay*? Also, NHRN Cathy never indicates she ever interacted with Adnan outside of the one time he came to her house with Jay.
On the other hand, the calls during track on 1/27 perfectly match Jay having the phone and calling his friends/drug dealer/family, right down to the last call coming via the Woodlawn tower like Jay has returned to Woodlawn to pickup Adnan from track. There’s also a call the prior evening (before Jay’s arrest) where they could have planned for Jay to borrow Adnan’s car after school the next day. But the people who want so badly for Adnan to be guilty just can’t admit that the phone pinged L689B during Jay’s normal activity because they need to believe that murder is the only possible explanation for the L689B pings on 1/13.
The ping information was wrong. Adnan’s phone never pinged in the area where the body was found. The police mapped the towers inaccurately.
Regarding Don’s comment, I am most amazed that Don (whom Have was supposed to meet that evening) never called her home or anyone else looking for her. And where was he until 1 am?
Correction – I meant Matt’s comment!
Hae was reported missing before 10 pm when Don was scheduled to meet her. And Don was called when Hae didn’t show up to her scheduled time at LensCrafter at 6pm. He would have been aware she was missing well before their scheduled rendezvous.
I hear you on this one. The fact that the police didn’t investigate Don further denies us any data/information to analyze like we have with Adnan as a suspect. Personally, I think the boyfriend label is a little strong. His perspective could be simply a 20 year old hooking up with a co-worker, big deal if she didn’t show up the next day.
For me it comes down to which is more plausible scenario. If Don did it, then there are so many things that don’t fit: Why Adnan asks for a ride when he had his car. Why Jay implicates himself in a murder. Coincidence that Jay/Adnan were together 2-3 separate times that day. Why Jenn implicates herself at all (with a lawyer hired). And not to mention a massive police coercion and where they supply the method (strangulation) and the location of the car to a witness. It’s easy to explain away any one of those, but they start to pile up when put together (and this is without any cell phone data, other witness testimony e.g. Cathy, etc.). It’s Occam’s razor in my mind.
But Adnan didn’t have his car, he’d lent it to Jay. And its looking more likely that the reason for that is: Jay had gone to score some weed. One thing that bothers me is: if they weren’t friends, how come he trusted J with his car AND his mobile? And don’t forget: Adnan is pakistani and Jay is black, but Don’s a white boy.
It’s also been mentioned around a billion times (okay, exaggerating) that Adnan didn’t *give* Jay his phone. He loaned Jay his car, the phone was in the glove compartment during the school day, and Jay helped himself to it.
This totally gave me a flashback to high school. Our weed dealer and buddy “Dude Larry” used to have to run “errands” and didn’t like to use his own car. One of us would usually help him out. The idea that Adnan would loan Jay the car on Wednesdays to score for their little clique while he was at practice makes perfect sense. It’s totally the way high school kids who “know somebody who knows somebody who kind of knows somebody” would go about scoring weed.
Stephanie wouldn’t let Jay borrow her car that day. I wonder if it’s for similar reasons as Dude Larry.
One thing I found curious about Adnan’s interviews on Serial, was when he stated a few times that he had been involved in some stuff he shouldn’t have been, and this might have led to his being wrongfully convicted.
I never understood those statements. But if he was aiding in weed-sales, maybe that’s what he is referring to?
The problem is what it always has been. The lack of alibi or an account for where Adnan was for those two hours. I don’t believe he can’t remember. Maybe he was hiding something that to a 17 year old was unspeakable, but not afterwards. Not later. Not now. Surely nothing could be worse than actually the suggestion of the crime of murder? Can’t get past this myself. Yeah, police are incompetent. Yeah,,the judiciary sucks. But if you can help yourself by telling the truth why wouldn’t you? I feel sorry for all those who are being duped into helping him. Let him tell you where he was for those hours – then fight for his innocence.
OK,
Which hours do you mean? That evening at 7pm to 9?
This is the thing, if the lividity evidence is correct, that Hae Min Lee had full frontal lividity (https://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/autopsy-report.pdf,) then she can’t have been placed in Leakin’ Park until, at the very earliest, midnight.
If, as the State claims, Hae is killed at around 2:30, then she would have to have lain somewhere, on her stomach, face down for at least 8 to 10 hours after for frontal lividity to fix.
That’s science. And science trumps memory.
If Adnan did this, then where did he keep Hae’s body for all those hours? He lived at home with a mother who sounds as if she was very much in his business. I doubt a dead body in that home would have gone unnoticed.
I’m not sure it even matters if Adnan can account for his time that entire day. Given that Hae could not have been where Jay says she was, then there is nothing to tie Adnan to the crime.
The burden of proof is on the prosecution. That’s the law. If the prosecution’s theory of the crime falls apart, no one is required to account for their time.
The science and the law are on Adnan’s side. Not to mention that the only evidence (if you can call it that) that ever tied Adnan to this crime is the testimony of a guy who can’t keep his story straight.
This case should never even have gone to trial.
Dear Kat,
I think if you are a suspect in a murder case you are expected to give an account of yourself. This would hopefully help the innocent. And cast doubt on the less than innocent.
Whose to say where Haes body was lain after her death? Maybe she was in Linkin Park undetected from the get go?
Why do you bring in an implausible scenario that Adnan took the body to his home? Just to point out it is indeed implausible.
I was mortified by Jays story telling too but like Matt concluded why on earth drag yourself in to the murder at all, unless you have some connection. Some information to relay,
I note no one suggests Jay might have done it anymore so despite being an awful witness he’s given some credit as a human being at least.
After all, whoever did it, we can hazard a guess that they were a sociopath.
Now sociopaths are extremely clever at avoiding detection. They have no remorse. No empathy. No fear of lying or the harm they cause. No fear of fear in fact.
To suggest Adnan should be exonerated because of technicalities in the law is just as bad as saying he should be locked up without sufficient evidence.
I think most people got drawn into this case because they want to know the truth, to discover the truth – endless investigation and hours of time given free by Joe Public. It’s truly amazing and impressive but sadly we are no nearer the truth of what happened to Hae.
Instead of coming at it from the mindset of proving Adnan innocent why don’t people investigate from the point of view of just finding out what happened.
Judgement is clouded by opinion and preconceptions.
Bias doesn’t lead you to the truth.
Hae disappeared around 3pm… Of course it matters for any suspect or indeed witness to give an account of themselves from this time onwards. And some hour or so before.
Adnan is alive. He’s accessible. He has friends and family to confide in. His best friend at the time has kept his distance. And I don’t mean Rabias brother. He had another best friend who was suspicious of Adnan at the time. Where is he now?
Why is he silent?
There’s a bit of this jigsaw missing.
The picture is incomplete and the truth is still out there.
I hope it’s found.
RIP Hae
OKkimmy,
The autopsy report indicates that Hae’s body was on a uniform surface for the 8 to 10 hours that lividity fixed (and that she lay there undisturbed). The report does not indicate that she lay on rough, mottled ground that one might find in a park.
She only has markings in the lividity that come from her clothes and something diamond shaped at her shoulders. She does not have any markings that would indicate that she lay on rocks, or twigs, etc. (Go back and read the autopsy and listen to #5 of undisclosed, and you’ll understand why I make these points. This isn’t my interpretation–these are well-established probabilities.)
And the position Hae was found in when Mr S comes upon her, is also not consistent with the fixed lividity evidence seen in the autopsy report.
When Hae is found in Leakin Park she is found on her right side. So she had to have been put there, in that position, AFTER frontal lividity set. If she’d been in the park the whole time in that side position, lividity would have fixed on her right side.
In terms of bringing up an example of what Adnan might or might not have done—once you understand what could or could not have occurred based on the lividity alone, then Jay’s entire story is blown out of the water.
Hae could not have been in the back of her trunk for any duration of time immediately following her death.
So it is highly unlikely that Jay saw Hae in her trunk at 3 pm. And even if he did see her then, he did not see her there again at 7 pm (his original story)that version is impossible, because again, this change of position would have been evident in the pattern of lividity.
If Jay did see her in her trunk at midnight, she would have to have been somewhere else between 3 pm and 12 am. So where was she? If Jay’s story is true then Adnan would have had to take care of the body on his own in those hours, so in keeping with the science, where possibly could Hae’s body have been?
If these key aspects of Jay’s story are implausible than wouldn’t it be a little foolish to buy into any other part of his story?
If this much of the story is contradicted by science, how can we believe any of it?
OK. Kat,
The lividity evidence is solid then.
Are you saying this rules out being laid on outside terrain, certainly the boot of a car, and only a flat surface?
Like a floor in a house or garage?
What was the diamond shaped object?
Let’s forget about Jays evidence for now.
Let’s focus on where Hae was heading. To pick up her cousin.
Petrol station enroute if I recall ( and some sinister characters living nearby).
What if she was kept hostage and alive… Killed hours later?
What if the guy who found her body, the school janitor, had kidnapped her early and then dumped her body in Leakin Park. His story is strange to say the least.
Wasn’t Adnan charged with kidnapping?
Why do the police think that at all?
Was Hae kidnapped by Adnan ( to punish her for going with an to Don). with the help of Jay and left with the weird janitor guy in some empty school building?
Shame the police can’t confirm if she was sexually assaulted.
Was she strangled in effort to frighten her from continuing with her relationship with, Adnan… And died.
There was evidence that Adnan was a jealous boyfriend.
Probably never meant to kill her.
Well, there’s some more speculation for everyone.
But actually the route Hae took from her school to the kindergarten is pivotal in solving the case.
Was she deliberately or accidentally intercepted?
How could Adnan ( and Jay) have intercepted Hae. Did they have another vehicle to use at that time? Jen’s for example? Is that why Jen is involved in the case?
Good to have pieces of the jigsaw that are irrefutable – lividity. Haes car.
What else is solid?
OKKimmy,
Excellent points.
“But actually the route Hae took from her school to the kindergarten is pivotal in solving the case.”
I very much agree. I personally feel that Hae’s route from Woodland to the kindergarten is extremely important to know.
When I google-mapped this, there were three possible routes, one that led through what is now a pretty dicey neighborhood (don’t know what it was like in 1999).
If we knew which route Hae took regularly, then we might be able to tell where she could have been vulnerable to attack or intercepted (other than someone asking for a ride just as she leaves school–which could have been someone other than Adnan)
If the lividity evidence is accurate, then I think we have to look to suspects who would have been able to keep a body somewhere “safe”, laid out in a prone position, undetected and undisturbed, for 8 to 10 hours. That could have been the back of a truck, or a large SUV if the back seats were down, or a van. Or better yet a bed–just given the lack of marks on her body–it does seem like she lay someplace soft.
It would have to be someone who either had the appropriate vehicle or lived somewhere alone or with someone who didn’t care–or lived with someone who took part in the killing.
Jen’s house is, maybe, a possibility–but unfortunately, Jen’s home was never checked (as far as we know.) And I just don’t see why Jen or any of those guys would have targeted Hae. Why?
So more likely to me the perp was either a stranger or someone who was aware of Hae’s habits and knew that at 3 pm or so, every day, like clockwork she would be alone, in that vehicle. And perhaps knew her route. Maybe Hae took an odd shortcut and traveled through a spot that made her an easy target.
Also, there are perps who stalk schools. There was, I believe, a 7/11 store across the street from Woodlawn. The street adjacent was busy. There are killers who prefer young victims. Maybe there was someone watching the school, observing and Hae’s regularity, her predictable schedule made her an easy prey.
It’s hard to know what the original intent of this crime was because the killer may have failed in their original intent. But there might have been a student or ex-student who targeted Hae.
The prevailing theory that this was a crime of passion seems unlikely to me. Where was the passion?
Again the autopsy report seems to tell a different story, from the one the State wants to be believed.
Hae is not injured anywhere but the right side of her head and her throat. That seems lacking in passion and actually very efficient to me. Usually, if someone is killing out of anger, there are a few unnecessary blows delivered. This was, for lack of a better way of expressing it: A very clean kill.
The autopsy also details that Hae’s skirt was pushed up to her buttocks and her shirt was pulled above her breasts, exposing them. Maybe the killer/s did this. Or maybe someone who found her body before Mr S did, messed with the body. Although the growth on her torso and extremities would seem to indicate that she had lain there undisturbed, once placed in that position.
The killer may have tried to rape Hae and failed. Or wore a condom.
I lean away from close friends being suspects, or boyfriends having done this because Hae does not appear to have elicited this type of anger from those she knew well. The only evidence that Adnan was jealous of Hae’s new romance comes from Jay and he has proven decidely unreliable.
I can see why this case would have been daunting to original investigators. The possibilities at first blush seem almost infinite. But I have to agree with you, the route Hae took from Woodland to her cousin’s school seems paramount to understanding what happened to her that day.
Even if she was intercepted by someone she knew, where could they have done this?
Unfortunately, Kimmy, you may not be American, or you grossly misunderstand the American legal system. Someone accused of a crime has no “obligation” to report their daily activities. There is right to remain silent. Remaining silent does NOT mean that you are guilty. I’m a lawyer, but even if I were completely innocent of a crime I would not talk without MY lawyer present and advising me. The police can easily twist what you say and/or discount it if there is no confirmation of what you say. It is the prosecution’s requirement to prove someone’s guilt and, here, people like Susan, Colin, and Rabiah have sifted through the evidence and proven without a doubt (and that is NOT the defense’s burden, unlike some countries) that it could NOT have happened the way they told the jury it happened.
There are many reasons Jay would have implicated himself, and those are hashed and rehashed in earlier posts on this blog and in the Undisclosed podcasts. Remember, he had zero consequences despite his “self-implication.”
OKKimmy
Regarding Adnan’s silence at this point: I would imagine he is being very cautious as there is a good chance he may get another trial.
And in regard to Adnan having been a suspect in this murder case, the simple answer is: he should never have been a suspect. A person of interest, maybe. But never a suspect. There was 0 actual evidence pointing to his involvement. Basically, the cops decided he killed Hae and then fabricated a case around this.
And you are right, when this occurs everyone loses. Including Hae, because until an actual suspect is located based on real evidence, she also does not get justice.
I hope Adnan is exonerated, which will force investigators (hopefully) to reexamine this case. Or maybe the DNA will produce the real killer/s.
I care very much that Hae Min Lee gets justice. Real justice.
Kat,
Isn’t the police case based on what Jay and Jen told them?
No totally out of thin air.
If they did a deal with these witnesses, who were implicated in the crime and could face charges, it makes sense how their statements were not completely plausible.
The truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth. They were not.
Straightforwardly, “the truth” is simply what the definition says — the correct information as far as you are aware. “The whole truth” is different to this, because although this phrase still refers to correct information, the word “whole” means that nothing must be omitted.
Finally, “nothing but the truth” refers to opinion based on truth (which may not be well-informed enough) and assumption based on truth (which may not be correct). E.g., if a man saw a red car pulling up to his house and later heard a car pulling away, he may not say that he heard the same red car leaving, as he did not see it. Regardless of whether the assumption is accurate or not, it is not fact.
In other words there is truth in both Jay and Jen’s statements but a very muddied truth.
Adnan has never been bitter towards these two people.
He has had many years before the miracle of a retrial was mooted to tell his full story… He has kept pieces of the jigsaw secret because he can’t win using them.
I never set out to believe Adnan guilty. I just find it difficult to believe in his innocence.
Because of his own behaviour, not what others have said.
OKKimmy,
Hopefully, my responses are lining up with your comments. I can’t tell. When I go back it looks like comments are all over the place.
In regard to what Jay and Jen told the police, it is difficult to know for certain if the stories these two gave, led the way for investigators, or if the investigators nudged or perhaps even shoved both these witnesses to tell the story the investigators wanted to be told. Much of what is disclosed via Undisclosed would lead me to believe the latter to be true.
The other thing to keep in mind is that there is no physical evidence corroborating anything that either Jay or Jen say. And they are both astonishingly inconsistent in their stories as well.
The one bit of evidence that seemed to corroborate Jay’s version of events, the ping evidence, has been proven wrong. And the lividity also contradicts this part of the story.
In fact, the autopsy as a whole basically contradicts Jay’s version of events in its entirety. It is amazing to me that Adnan was even indicted with this flimsy evidence. But the sad truth is this happens all the time. A determined prosecutor, willing to do anything to win, can be frighteningly effective.
There are just so many questions unanswerable at this time.
I understand why you might believe Adnan guilty, but can you say that there is proof of his guilt that passes the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard?
And this is the cornerstone of our justice system—that the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused, as in the burden of proof is the prosecution’s. I know in reality this is often not the case, but Adnan should not be having to prove his innocence this way. The prosecution’s case should have been so strong that Susan, Colin and Rabia couldn’t tear it apart. The case shouldn’t have been this easy to dismantle.
Hi Kat,
I find your posts come to my email box and I hit reply but not sure where they go on the thread. lol
I studied this case over a year ago so my memory is sketchy now.
I don’t have time or want to get obsessed with it – something that the original SERIAL PODCAST by American Life caused me to initially – but I have more than a passing interest I guess. Just to fill you in where I am coming from. 😉
I got disillusioned when everything solid was turning into thin air, cell tower pings, time line etc etc but I read a lot on the case at one point.
It’s interesting to see what I am left with… Feelings I suppose.
The debunking of so much evidence is alarming but there are still things that niggle.
When you think about it it’s a tiny time frame when Hae went missing.
Between leaving school and when she should have arrived at kindergarten to pick up her cousin.
Well, that’s not been debunked has it? She definitely was going to pick up her cousin?
I need to get up to scratch but then I think it will be back to frustrating because one can’t find the answers to the pivotal questions…
… Speculations only. 😦
I hope I can say something to nudge the truth out.
Whatever that may be!
Kim
Kim,
I think nudging the truth out is what we are all after :).
The window for this crime to have been initiated is tiny. I believe it’s about 15 minutes. But as someone who has lived in high-crime areas, there is the awareness that life can turn on a dime.
I think we’d rather believe this crime was personal–then we can feel safer.
I read a lot of these cases. It’s not my work, it’s just I can’t not read. These cases bother me so much. And I also read cases that aren’t high-profile–where I have to do my own research and my own debunking. There are so many wrongfully incarcerated persons who no one cares about–that no one ever did care about, and that probably no one ever will.
It’s all pretty sad stuff. But I’m so glad that these types of legal travesties are being brought to light. Making of a Murderer is amazing as well. Netflix. This is an exciting time to care about this stuff, because substantive progress is being made.
The Adnan/Hae Min Lee case isn’t all that complex, really. You have witnesses who appear to be coached, there was never reliable corroboration to their stories, anyway, and as much as Urich emerges as a bad guy, Christina G was seriously lacking as a defense attorney–even though I truly believe her illness played an enormous role in her ineffectiveness.
Adnan deserves, at the very least, a fair trial. He did not get this.
And Hae Min Lee deserves for her killer/s to go away for a very long, long time. Society needs this, because if Adnan didn’t do this, someone capable of this kind of crime may be roaming free. Hae’s family deserves a rest from all this. I hope everyone involved gets justice.
Hi Kat,
I think that is what scares me most. To think someone can be sent to prison for something they have not done and well, for murder, it’s just horrendous.
Yes, I was excited that people power could make the judiciary and police take a long harsh look at themselves… I wish we could prove Adnan was innocent, rather than just say he can’t be proved guilty. If you know what I mean?
But therein lies the problem. You get a system whereby the law enforcers can gloss over a bit here, tweak a bit there, feel pressure to find and arrest a suspect, ignore other avenues, fiscal reasons, competency, bad luck,,good luck… And a person with no one strong behind him or her can get swept along into a mire.
I guess. 😦
Kim,
I’m posting your comment because thread seems to be suffering from WordPress-wackadoo-syndrome. I can’t make heads or tails of the comments order.
“Hi Kat,
I think that is what scares me most. To think someone can be sent to prison for something they have not done and well, for murder, it’s just horrendous.
Yes, I was excited that people power could make the judiciary and police take a long harsh look at themselves… I wish we could prove Adnan was innocent, rather than just say he can’t be proved guilty. If you know what I mean?
But therein lies the problem. You get a system whereby the law enforcers can gloss over a bit here, tweak a bit there, feel pressure to find and arrest a suspect, ignore other avenues, fiscal reasons, competency, bad luck,,good luck… And a person with no one strong behind him or her can get swept along into a mire.
I guess. :(”
Kim,
I basically agree. The system isn’t supposed to require the defendant to prove their innocence. Presumption of innocence is such a crucial and defining part of our justices system—but often times defendants do have to do this.
The challenge for anyone who finds themselves in the position of proving their innocence is that proving a negative is extraordinarily challenging.
How do you effectively prove you didn’t do something? Especially if the time frame of a crime is iffy.
In essence, Aisha’s alibi for Adnan should be all anyone needs. If Adan is in the Woodlawn library checking his emails at 3pm, and Hae has left school before then, and Hae doesn’t make it to pick up her cousin by 3:15—there is no way Adnan could have killed her.
But what if that alibi isn’t presented or is successfully challenged.
Accounting for one’s time can be a challenge. What about the suspect who was home in bed when the crime occurred? How do you prove dfinitively where you were?
I don’t know exactly why it was decided that the burden of proof would be on the prosecution, but I’m glad it is supposed to be. No one should have to account for their time unless there is ample evidence indicated they were involved in a crime. Think about. What if I were to demand to know exactly what you were doing and where you were on December 8 2015—do you know? Can you prove it? Do you have witnesses?
OK Kimmy
I wanted to respond to your latest comment but I can’t for some reason. Back at you on another thread.
Hi Kat,
Innocent until proven guilty. Same in US and UK? Do you know if it’s the same in Civil Courts?
Well, you made a compelling point about the difficulty of proving a negative and I am reconsidering my doubts about Adnan.
Circumstantial evidence or inability to account for oneself ( no witness ) makes for difficult decisions.
Assumption plays a big role in people’s thinking. Whether they admit to it or not. The human condition.
I always refer to a comment made by a brave journalist in the UK who was fighting a huge libel case in court. He said Courts look like Cathedrals on the outside but are more like casinos on the inside.
Often it comes down to the wisdom of a judge. But we all know judges have personalities too.
The judiciary is a scary place.
Would you like to be my Facebook friend?
I enjoy your thinking and intelligence.
Stay safe.
Kim
Kim,
I’m again posting your comment in the body of my response so that there is some flow.
You wrote:
“Hi Kat,
Innocent until proven guilty. Same in US and UK? Do you know if it’s the same in Civil Courts?
Well, you made a compelling point about the difficulty of proving a negative and I am reconsidering my doubts about Adnan.
Circumstantial evidence or inability to account for oneself ( no witness ) makes for difficult decisions.
Assumption plays a big role in people’s thinking. Whether they admit to it or not. The human condition.
I always refer to a comment made by a brave journalist in the UK who was fighting a huge libel case in court. He said Courts look like Cathedrals on the outside but are more like casinos on the inside.
Often it comes down to the wisdom of a judge. But we all know judges have personalities too.
The judiciary is a scary place.
Would you like to be my Facebook friend?
I enjoy your thinking and intelligence.
Stay safe.
Kim”
My response:
Kim,
Thank you. I enjoy your thinking and intelligence as well.
The judiciary is a very scary place. I just got back from a workshop on incarcerated women that was pretty devastating.
To answer your question about Civil Courts in the US—
Civil Courts do not operate in the same manner as the Criminal courts. Presumption of innocence isn’t relevant there. The burden of proof is pretty much on both parties—you can file to dismiss a frivolous case, but if your motion doesn’t succeed the case will go to court even if the plaintiff’s claims are ridiculous. (A defendant can also counter-sue, sometimes that might dissuade a nonsensical suit. Baiscially though, if someone has the time and the money they can sue whoever they want for pretty much whatever reason they want. Whether they will win is another matter. And rather than proving your position beyond a reasonable doubt, the bar for the plaintiff or counter-suit that has to be reached is a “preponderance of evidence.”
“He said Courts look like Cathedrals on the outside but are more like casinos on the inside.”
Yes. That’s absolutely true. And though I’ve hired lawyers thinking I might have to take a civil issue to court, I haven’t personally been through a trial. I do have family members who have had to sue and the process is agonizing. It takes forever if the parties won’t settle, and the only real winners turn out usually to be the lawyers.
There are good civil attorneys out there, but it’s better if you can work things out with the other party outside of court. (as a side note: There’s a very interesting documentary about Family Court here in the States–“Divorce Corp”, and that process appears to also be rife with corruption.)
“Circumstantial evidence or inability to account for oneself ( no witness ) makes for difficult decisions.”
Circumstantial evidence can be physical evidence. DNA and blood evidence are circumstantial evidence, but proving where we were at a given time, that can be tough.
I think the easiest cases are where you have the proverbial smoking gun. But if you have a chance to watch “Making a murderer” even that physical, seemingly irrefutable evidence can be tainted by those handling it.
Basically, the justice system here needs an overhaul. It’s not as good as people would like to believe it is. Even those convicted of the crime they actually committed are often being put away for too long, under conditions that make it very difficult for them to return to society and be productive.
I think the system in the UK is probably much better. It seems like it is.
Is it?
I think Adnan has thoughts along the lines of “if I hadn’t lent Jay my car that day Hae would never have been murdered”. And I think he would be right in thinking this. Not that I am blaming Adnan in the least, but that tragically, is the way it turned out, in my opinion.
He was referring to things good Muslim people don’t do. I.e sleeping around, smoking weed, and hanging with no good people.
I don’t believe he did it.
Why the need to speculate on this? Can’t you or Rabia just ask Adnan if they were dealing together?
Good luck having him admit to it now, when he hadn’t for 16 years.
Not to gloat, but I’ve been speculating Adnan and Jay were dealing weed together since I first listened to Serial.. Hence the car borrowing and likely the cell phone as well. The story about buying gift for Stephanie on 1/13 is pure bunk. They were business partners, not friends. That’s likely the reason Adnan sounds cagey in his prison calls.
I thought the same all along. In fact I can’t believe its not till recently that someone put 2 and 2 together. Is weed such a heinous crime in the land of the…ahem ‘free’? Priorities seem a bit skewed if so.
Didn’t Don and Hae have plans to get together 1/13 after she got off work? If so, it looks fishy that Don did not try to reach Hae on the 13th (more suspicious than Adnan not trying to reach Hae due to the previous comments about Adnan staying informed through the circle of friends.).
I think don creating a fake alibi after the fact is highly suspicious. As Jim Clemente would say, look at the post offense behavior!
And wouldn’t don have tried to reach adnan to see if he knew where she was?
I don’t see why the fact that Jay regularly borrowed Adnan’s car and used his phone to call Jay’s friends while Adnan was at track practice indicates that Jay and Adnan had a business deal involving weed. It does suggest that while he had Adnan’s car and was using Adnan’s phone Jay was contacting people he may have bought weed from, but there’s nothing to say Adnan knew that was what he was doing. We do know that on at least one of those days (the 13th) Adnan was at track practice and not with his phone. It does make the police investigation look even more sloppy given they didn’t even look into this pattern of calling and why there were ‘Leakin Park pings’ on days other than the 13th. More than anything, it says to me that Jay probably had something to hide from the police (and possibly also Adnan) about what he was doing with the phone and car on those days and that may have added to the other incentives (possible CrimeStoppers reward, avoiding being charged with murder) he had to ‘cooperate’ with the police. If the only evidence of a weed dealing enterprise between them is that Jay says he got $100 from Adnan to buy weed I don’t see that as evidence of anything. Jay says all sorts. Unless there are other statements supporting this I can’t see that what Jay says has any more merit here than when he says they buried Hae at 7:30.
Except Adnan has admitted that he smoked weed with Jay and got high on the 13th. So, Adnan and Jay smoke weed. Adnan gets weed from Jay. Jay’s friend Patrick is “a guy [Jay] bought marijuana from a whole lot”. Adnan lends his car to Jay on some Wednesdays during track practice. Jay uses Adnan’s cell to call Patrick those days. But you don’t buy that Adnan paid Jay for the weed? It’s a check, the police easily could have verified it. I think it’s a lot easier to believe that Adnan loaned Jay his car to get weed and then paid him for it than Adnan loaned Jay his car for other reasons and Jay was the Weed Fairy.
Susan,
I can’t find the most recent Undisclosed episode. The bonus. Where is it? Can you post link?
Oops. NEVER MIND. Found it!!!!! Thanks.
Superb job. All of you!!!! I’ve listened to all the podcasts numerous times. Been reading docs. It’s a goldmine. Not only are we getting to view a case in a way the general public never gets to see. But I think this type of presentation helps educate folks as to how the justice system actually works.
I follow cases all over the country (and it isn’t cheap–getting a hold of court documents can be pricey) but that said, these issues are not isolated to Adnan’s case or to Baltimore. They are systemic. And they need a bright harsh light on them.
I’m looking forward to Undisclosed 2. And to Adnan’s eventual exoneration. Homing it is sooner than later.
I’m trying to respond to Kat’s earlier post about lividity (not sure I’m responding to the correct post) and where Hae’s body could have been prone for 8-10 hours? The only vehicle that would fit and is documented anywhere I could find is the ‘van’ that is discussed in serial by Jay’s coworker at the porn shop (his name was Josh). The van that was parked outside of the store and he was scared of. It could be total coincidence, but the van just happened to be a van rather than a car or truck and there certainly wasn’t any evidence at that point that Hae was prone for 8-10 hours. They were focused on finding Hae’s car, not a van or SUV, so it could have been totally glossed over at the time.
Excellent point, Matt. That is the first location for her body where it could have been prone that makes sense to me.
Matt,
Mr. S drove a truck–don’t know if the back was covered, but if he’s carrying supplies and tools it might have been. But I’m not trying to implicate him. The autopsy seems to be saying that there the only marks left in the lividity were the diamond shapes at the shoulders and the location on Hae’s waist where her stockings bunched. If that’s accurate then it seems that she would have to have been on a soft surface for there not to be more marks or “Tardieu spots” left from tight clothing.
Just an FYI. I’m having trouble donating. And it could just be me. I’m experiencing all kinds of technical difficulties tonight. I tried three times. Left Goodlaunch a message. Just in case anyone else is experiencing hiccups.
Can’t say I am particularly surprised since this is the only plausible reason Adnan would lend his car and phone to someone he says he barely knows, who also happens to be the “criminal element of Woodlawn”. And still lie about it 17 years later whike in prison for a more serious charge.
Is there any evidence that Hae was in on this or other activities too? Her car was found near Patrivck’s although we know that doesn’t mean much since it might have been moved.
Thanks for making this so clear, Susan, though I think most of us figured that the weed dealing was the major reason for Adnan lending his car to Jay.
It does something toward explaining how paranoid Jay and Jenn, and Adnan, would have been when they initially heard that the police were interested in what the car and phone were doing that day, and why all kinds of flakey answers would have come out of their mouths.
Some people don’t realize that Jay, technically an adult, selling weed to minors, on school property, would have incurred VERY heavy penalties in the U.S. 10 years might not sound like much compared to a murder charge, but people that young might have held out hope that they could just lie their way out of both situations much longer than they should have. Jay did indeed end up avoiding the drug charges by snitching on Adnan, and that might be morally acceptable to him if the police had convinced Jay that Adnan was the murderer anyway.
Depending on your view of what happened, this actually lends some credibility as the reasons why Jenn and Jay’s stories don’t match up and why Jay’s story changed over time. They were initially focused on covering up their drug dealing tracks. They modified stories to assist in the prosecution of Adnan (whether voluntarily or coached, it doesn’t really matter) and kept out any details related to drug dealing which created some of the inconsistencies that we still see today.
Hi Susan, I know you are all working on the new case now, but I was wondering if there was ever any checks on other violent/severe crimes that occurred on Jan 13th in the area? Maybe Hae was witness to something, and the events unfolded from there?
There are a lot of ways to imagine this scenario – the one that would fit most is that Hae stopped to see Don somewhere (she would be in a hurry to do this before getting the cousin, maybe), saw Adnan’s car by coincidence and approached it, found someone other than Adnan (Jay? Patrick? Jenn? someone else we don’t know about?) involved in something illegal. They take her, knock her out, throw her in someone’s trunk, and decide to kill & bury her and hide her car later. Maybe Jay, maybe Jenn, maybe neither of them but just someone they know who had borrowed the car for this thing. Maybe even Don saw it, tho the perpetrators didn’t notice it, and he covered his tracks with a time card cheat knowing he would be implicated; he never calls her again cus hes not even sure what happened to her and he doesn’t want to be connected. Jay and Jenn would obviously be threatened to stay silent. Then they get marked by cops anyway – possibly by someone connected calling in the tip because they had been using his car (easy target to get the cops to look elsewhere once her body is found) – so they spin the story the way they do, with bits and pieces of truth mixed in with lies implicating Adnan since the cops are already leading them that way. Not a grand conspiracy to frame this kid, exactly, just the way things fell into place.
The evidence would line up with this scenario too: the cell phone records, the lividity, all of that. Even Jay’s changing stories would make more sense, since it becomes glaringly clear that he would be motivated to protect himself and loved ones, even while only knowing some details. Seeing her in a car trunk (but not dead yet?), making sure to be at Jenn’s house at 340, Best Buy/not Best Buy, two cars/not two cars, burial details. If you add in a truly dangerous third party, everything becomes so much more plausible. The case gets muddy only when you try to bring Adnan into the picture.
Some might say this story is reaching for an explanation, but I don’t think it is at all. Whats more likely? A typical teen intimately murders his ex girlfriend seemingly out of the blue, recruits a semi-random pot connection in it but that guy can’t tell a straight story of events for some reason, and all of the other evidence has to be forced to fit… OR a criminal element of Baltimore gets seen by a teenager, they cover their tracks with her, then throw the heat on someone else when the cops open the door for it with their tunnel-vision investigation? Further, remember that maybe Jay himself was no big-time drug trafficker, but he very likely was connected to one. From the beginning, Jay should have been pushed about his criminal connections rather than just led to implicate Adnan – a whole different investigation could have come from that effort.
If there was any possibility of this idea going somewhere, I just wanted to offer it for the defense/PI team to try to sniff out (everyone here is so smart tho, I’m sure its already been looked into with no luck – its just been too long). I just want justice for Hae!
Susan: Feeling the need to comment on recent twitter comments (not on twitter though) about lack of notes taken by scientists at crime scene. Seems to go against a lot of codes of practise – shouldn’t individuals flouting such codes be reported to their professional bodies? Or challenged at trial for not adhering to said codes of practise (and therefore not being sufficiently professional/qualified)? https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/115698/code-practice-forensic-pathology.pdf and http://www.archaeologists.net/sites/default/files/CIfAS&GForensics_2.pdf (both UK codes – struggling to find a US code, though amazed if one doesn’t exist)
Expectation of a written report in US: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/167568.pdf and http://dhmh.maryland.gov/ocme/SitePages/Forensic%20Investigations.aspx and http://dhmh.maryland.gov/bom/pdf/TITLE_5_HEALTH_GENERAL.pdf and https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/213421.pdf
Question: has anyone come right out and just said the cops at some point likely suspected they had the wrong guy but decided to go with it and basically created the case almost out of whole cloth? Because that’s really the sense I was left with in the end. I feel like Jay got caught up in something due to his drug charges and the cops decided to make him play ball by being their star witness…I really feel like he knew NOTHING until they told him what he knew and Jen was a willing participant to help out her buddy Jay. I think it seems much more likely a psycho stranger killed her, buried her, dumped her car and has gotten away with murder. Although all the mystery around Don and his timecards etc makes me a little uncomfortable. I don’t see how anyone can think Adnan had anything to do with this. Am I crazy? Say I’m not crazy!
You aren’t crazy in my book. My theory of the case is the same. I think Hae was killed either by someone who knew her slightly and was aware of her schedule–and utilized that knowledge to target her. Or a complete stranger did this, and this was a wrong time, wrong place crime.
That’s really what the evidence (that can be relied on) points to.
And the real killer may have killed again since.
Sorry if this has already been addressed, but two things have been bugging me:
1) In one episode of undisclosed, I recall hearing you say that the prosecutors were incorrect in saying that Adnan could have seen Hae’s face in the trunk because Jay originally said he saw her face down. Wouldn’t that support the lividity evidence?
2) If Adnan thought that the state’s timeline was that Hae was last seen at 3pm, why did he keep trying to bring up the Asia library alibi? When did he first hear that the state’s timeline had Hae dead by 2:36?
Thanks! Love the podcast:)
I’ll let Susan answer No.1 (and No.2, but I know she’s at the hearing and busy at the moment). But with regard to No.2, the defense did not know the prosecution’s timeline until the trial, from what I understand. In fact, they believed that the timeline was that she was killed even later. As a result, the fact that Asia saw him right after school would not have been an alibi.
not really on topic, but I can’t find a place to comment on this otherwise – has anyone mentioned that you seem to be dropping a syllable in Abe Waranowitz’s last name? you seem to be missing the second a….I just listened to the “Ineffective Counsel” episode of Undisclosed….and I’m kinda glad you didn’t get to talk about him/with him any more than you did, because it got pretty jarring, hearing the repetitive mispronunciation….you kept saying Warnowitz, Warnowitz, Warnowitz….
Susan, this timeline and the cell phone call groupings are some amazing work and definitely add to the thought that was thrown out by the guys in episode 12 in the Ohio prison, that Hae possibly walked up on Jay and others doing something they didn’t want a witness to and dealt with her.
One question I have and have never heard it asked or answered on either Serial Season 1 or Undisclosed, did anyone ever ask Jay to describe where the body was and all that and if that matched up with what was truly found? I know he has talked about the coat and cigarette and changed that part of the story several times, along with all of his other stories. And I know they talked to Jay about a week before the body was found right?
I believe it was you Susan or on one of the Undisclosed episodes where you noted that the grass was green under the car and had fresh grass on the car prior to the ride along and Jay kind of telling them where it was. Did they ever fingerprint the car and see what other folks around Baltimore City/County had touched that, like Jay and some of his drug dealing buddies. My theory is several folks were driving it around after Hae was killed and that was the community dump lot.
I also think Jenn knows a lot more than she has ever told or let on. Her and Jay both. Jay still seems scared of someone, and it isn’t Adnan since he is currently locked up for life. So it has to be someone else on the outside or with gang type ties.
Listening to your updates on the appeal hearing. You all are amazing.
Would love to be notified of posts.
Aloha Kat and OkKimmy,
Sometimes being silent doesn’t mean you are harboring secrets. I could simply mean your innocently have nothing to say, because you weren’t involved to begin with, therefore you have nothing to say.
People tend to believe that being silent, means your hiding something? There are many reasons for remaining silent.
Mahalo Nui Loa
Greetings AlohaMade, I take your point but what silence are you referring to? I am a bit out of the loop with what’s going on or been said recently. Did I make some inference to silence in the past? I know I’ve struggled with understanding why Adnan can’t remember that pivotal time period the day Hay died/disappeared. Is it amnesia? Silence is powerful. The unsaid is powerful. That’s what I think. RIP Hae. A brutal death. Heartbreaking.
I would like to know if there were any incoming calls to the phone from Adnan at 4:58pm on January 27 or February 3 asking Jay to come pick him up from track
One would expect there to have been such a call since the call that came in at 4:58pm on the 13th was, according to Jay, Adnan asking him to come pick him up from track.
If there were no such calls on either January 27 or February 3 then it would suggest that it was not necessary for Adnan to call Jay at the end of track, Jay most likely knew what time track ended and didn’t need a time call. If this was the case then perhaps Jay didn’t need a time call to pick Adnan up from track practice on the 13th either and he was lying about that call having been from Adnan.
One is then left to ask “who WAS that incoming call at 4:58pm on the 13th from?”
Hello I have two questions. Why was Adnan so worried about not breaking the cell phone policy the same day he was to commit a murder? Also when again did they go back to best buy to get Haes car and to my knowledge cops patrol those kinds of places regularly wouldn’t they have patrolled that place after missing person was filed?
I know, I know it’s 2022. However, I am back down the rabbit hole of this case. This post really does clear up the weirdness of the car borrowing. I am also going to make a leap, the made up story of Stephanie’s birthday present being the reason for the car borrowing was to cover up the drug dealing.
So to Jay and Adnan, it was just another Wednesday doing business. So it was very unfortunate that Hae was murdered on that day. So now Jay and Adnan had to cover up their weird drug deals and not be accused of the murder. It really explains all the “where were you?” Questions. Well Jay couldn’t say dealing drugs to Patrick like we do on Wednesday’s officer.