[Update, 7/5/13: For updated material concerning the ongoing trial of George Zimmerman, please see more recent posts concerning the undisputed facts at the conclusion of the prosecution’s case, the significance of Selene Bahadoor’s testimony, and Zimmerman’s inability to explain how he fell backwards but ended up 40 feet forward.]
[Update, 4/15/12: For an analysis of the criminal laws implicated by this case, please see my follow-up post on the specific criminal charges brought against George Zimmerman, and his available statutory defenses.]
[Update, 4/29/12: Having finally looked at a longer copy of the phone records for Trayvon Martin’s phone, I’ve revised portions of the timeline to reflect the new information contained there. However, I now believe that the T-Mobile call logs are hopelessly unreliable for giving call times with any accuracy more than + 59 seconds. I did some rough experiments with my own phone, since my cell plan is also through T-Mobile, and it appears to me that the recorded times on T-Mobile statements are not at all exact, and can be as much as 59 seconds off from the actual time at which a call was made. Calls were wrongly recorded both as occurring later and sooner than from when they were actually made, so the error isn’t due to T-Mobile’s clock being fast or slow — the times are just off.]
[Update, 5/28/12: Lot of new information has been released while I was out of town. Working now on going through it all and updating the timeline with the information obtained from the new docs.]
[Update, 7/20/12: This timeline of events has been superseded by the release of a great deal of discovery that was unavailable at the time that it was constructed. The time stamps on the various phone calls still stand, obviously, but some of the interpretations of that data have to be changed in light of the additional evidence.]
I wanted to write a more in depth post the death of Trayvon Martin and the possible criminal charges arising from it, but when trying to figure out how strong Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense might be, I got frustrated by the lack of any in-depth, detailed time lines of the events leading up to and immediately following Trayvon’s death. In order to get a better idea of what exactly happened, I’ve laid out here a chronology of the shooting based on (1) call logs of the calls to 911 and the police made that night; (2) recordings of the calls themselves; and (3) the police report and surveillance video that have been made available to the public.
The records show that less than ten minutes passed from Zimmerman’s first sighting of Trayvon, to Zimmerman’s shooting of Trayvon as they wrestled in a neighborhood walkway between houses. Where possible, I’ve included the times of events down to the second, but some events and phone calls were only recorded by the minute, making some guess work necessary.
To start with, I’ve put together a quick diagram of some of the relevant locations that are referenced in the post. (Thanks for the image, Xie!)
Relevant Documents
- Call Log for Zimmerman’s Calls to Police Dispatch
- Released Police Report & Other Evidence
- State’s Motion for Protective Order (5/24/2012)
- Crimes scene photos and photos of subjects released by police
Timeline of Events
6:22:08pm: Surveillance footage of the 7-Eleven near the Retreat View neighborhood shows Trayvon entering the store.
6:24:33pm: Trayvon buys a canned drink and a bag of candy, and departs the store. The clerk puts it in a brown plastic bag. That bag will later be found strewn near where Trayvon is shot.
6:54pm: Trayvon makes a call to “DeeDee,” a minor female that has been reported as his girlfriend. He is using a headset, walking home on his way back from the store after grabbing a snack and a drink, and he has been on the phone with DeeDee since he left there. According to DeeDee, it begins to rain, and he takes shelter at one of the buildings in the townhouse complex, while the two continue to chat. The referenced building is possibly the awning marked in purple on the above image.
7:04pm: An unknown individual makes a call to Trayvon while Trayvon is still talking to DeeDee. Unlike both Trayvon and DeeDee, this individual is not using a phone on a T-Mobile phone plan. Trayvon apparently puts DeeDee on hold, and then answers the new call in order to speak briefly to the new caller. This conversation lasts anywhere between 1 second and 59 seconds. After, Trayvon switches his call back to DeeDee. This phone call between DeeDee and Trayvon is recorded as having a duration of 18 minutes — which means from connection to termination, it was somewhere between 17 min, 0 seconds and 17 min, 59 seconds. Although the T-Mobile call times are imprecise, it would appear the call is disconnected at around 7:12pm.
7:09:34 pm: Zimmerman, in his truck, spots Trayvon. He calls the non-emergency dispatch number for the police, and the call log records his call as connecting with dispatch at 7:09:34pm. [Note: Relevant log begins on page 46.] He reports a suspicious black male in neighborhood. An recording of Zimmerman’s police call can be found here. Zimmerman states “The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.” Zimmerman meant to say 1111 Retreat View Circle. It appears that Trayvon is around the clubhouse when Zimmerman’s call to police begins, at the intersection of Retreat View and Twin Trees. This is consistent with DeeDee’s claims that Trayvon was hanging out under a complex building to take shelter from the rain.
7:10:16pm: Forty-five seconds after the phone call begins, Zimmerman reports that Trayvon is “here now,” indicating possibly that Trayvon was moving while Zimmerman was not. It’s possible Zimmerman’s car was parked at all times during his phone call to the police.
- Zimmerman: “He’s here now … he’s just staring.”
7:10:20pm: Zimmerman’s phone call to police indicates that at this time, Trayvon becomes aware of the fact that Zimmerman is watching him. The two stare at one another, and Trayvon keeps walking.
- Zimmerman: “Now he’s staring at me.”
7:10:22 – 7:10:35 pm:
- Dispatch: “OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?”
- Zimmerman: “That’s the clubhouse.”
- Dispatch: “He’s near the clubhouse now?”
- Zimmerman: “Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.”
It seems almost certain that Zimmerman was on Twin Trees Ln. at this point, since Trayvon’s path started at the clubhouse at the intersection of Retreat View and Twin Trees, and was heading towards the cut-through (circled in blue, above). It seems plausible that Zimmerman has been sitting in his parked truck, somewhere at the area marked in green in the image below, for the entire first half of his call to police. While watching from his truck, he sees Trayvon leaving the awning (marked in purple) and walking towards the cut-through, which means Trayvon’s path would’ve gone right past the car. Trayvon apparently noticed Zimmerman as he approaches, and keeps on walking.
This possible scenario, however, doesn’t completely fit with the timing from the call with DeeDee, which seems to indicate that Trayvon felt that he was being followed by someone at a time that would seem to be before Zimmerman exits the car — implying that Zimmerman may have been slowly following Trayvon while driving. My guess, though, is that the time stamps for T-Mobile’s call records and for the 911 logs are slightly off from one another, which explains any discrepancy between the two time lines.
7:11:14 pm: At this point, Trayvon appears to have walked past Zimmerman truck, possibly heading towards the cut through, where he would shortly be out of sight of Zimmerman.
- Zimmerman: “These assholes. They always get away. … When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse.”
- Dispatcher: “OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?”
- Zimmerman: “Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.
7:11:42 – 7:11:48pm: There is the sound of a car door opening at this point, immediately after Zimmerman says “he’s running,” and Zimmerman starts huffing; wind noises can be heard, and Zimmerman sounds slightly breathless. Zimmerman is able to see Trayvon plainly enough at this point to determine his direction, and believes he is going for the back entrance:
- Zimmerman: “Shit, he’s running.”
- Dispatcher: “He’s running? Which way is he running?”
- Zimmerman: “Down toward the other [back] entrance of the neighborhood.”
The house where Trayvon is staying is directly between Trayvon’s approximate location at this time and the back entrance to the complex; Trayvon is probably actually running for his house. However, because both the house and the back entrance are to the southeast corner, there are two possible routes that Zimmerman could have seen Trayvon take off towards: (1) Trayvon stays on Twin Trees Ln., bolting south down the road; or (2) Trayvon runs for the cut-through, heading east, so that he can then turn and head south either on Retreat View or through the sidewalk between the rows of houses. Because Zimmerman’s reaction to Trayvon running is to get out of his car, it seems that scenario 2 is more likely — Zimmerman can’t follow in his car, he has to go on foot.
Approx. 7:12pm [+ or – 59 seconds off of 7:12pm, from the time as recorded by Zimmerman’s call to police. Exact time unknown]: The original phone call that Trayvon made to Dee, which lasted 18 minutes, is disconnected. Almost immediately after that phone call ends, DeeDee calls Trayvon back. He answers, and DeeDee reports that he says to her, “I think this dude is following me.” She says that she tells him “Run!” and that Trayvon responded that he’s not going to run, he’s just going to walk fast.
The timing is close enough to suggest, but not perfect enough to say for sure, that when Zimmerman reports that “[Trayvon’s] running,” it’s at the same time as when DeeDee advised him to do just that. If so, it’s possible Trayvon was not telling the complete truth when he told her was just going to “walk fast,” perhaps to seem braver, but in reality had started running. Alternatively, Trayvon really did only start to “walk fast,” but Zimmerman, clearly worried about yet another asshole getting away, interprets this as “running” in his call to dispatch.
7:12:08 pm: After conversation about Zimmerman’s contact details, Zimmerman states to the dispatcher, “he ran.” From the general context, it seems that Zimmerman has now lost sight of Trayvon. The running/wind noises on the recording also cease abruptly at this point, and Zimmerman’s voice evens out. If this is the case, then Zimmerman has stopped his on-foot, running pursuit of Trayvon approximately 20 seconds after he began.
7:12:44pm:
- Dispatcher: “Alright, where are you going to meet with [police] at?”
- Zimmerman: “Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck.”
I’m unclear where the mailboxes Zimmerman refers to are, but it appears from Google street view that they could be in the awning that Trayvon’s girlfriend says he took shelter in from the rain. If so, however, it’s hard to understand why police would “make a left and then go past the mailboxes.” But it makes more sense than anything else I can find, so it’s possible Zimmerman just misspoke again.
7:12:59: Zimmerman states that his truck is parked at “a cut-through” so he doesn’t know the address. The cut-through is the blue-circled area in the image, so Zimmerman’s truck is presumably in the vicinity of the green circled area. It may have been parked here from the very beginning of his call to police.
7:13:14pm: Zimmerman has lost Trayvon. He doesn’t want to say his address out loud because “I don’t know where this kid is.” Nine seconds later, Zimmerman tells dispatcher to have police call him when they arrive rather than meet at specific place, indicating that Zimmerman plans to keep moving, and doesn’t know where exactly he’ll be when police arrive.
7:13:41pm: Zimmerman’s phone call with dispatch ends.
7:14pm: There is approximately a one minute, thirty second period for which we have very little information about what occurred, from around 17:14:00 until 17:15:30. Zimmerman apparently keeps searching for Trayvon during this time period, and phone records show that Trayvon is still on the phone with DeeDee. Also during this period of time, neither party moves particularly far from their estimated locations at 7:13:00pm; it appears that they were either (1) walking extremely slowly, (2) had stopped somewhere before resuming movement, or (3) were taking non-direct paths. It’s possible that Trayvon, like Zimmerman when he refused to give his house number out, was worried about the stalker following him home and figuring out where he lived, so Trayvon did not run straight back, instead feinting one way before looping back around. Another possibility is that Trayvon, thinking he’d lost Zimmerman, was dawdling on his walk back home in order to finish his phone call with DeeDee — possibly because Trayvon, like most 17 year olds, generally prefers to have his phone calls with his significant other out of ear shot of his parents. The other two possibilities are that (1) Trayvon bolted on a pathway in the wrong direction from his house, in order to escape Zimmerman, after Trayvon initially started running/walked fast; he was then making his way back to his correct route when he encountered Zimmerman again; or (2) Trayvon, still on the phone with DeeDee, had in fact managed to start running on a direct path towards home, but decides to loop back to find Zimmerman again, in order to start a fight with the guy who dared to follow him.
Some small, extremely circumstantial evidence to suggest why Zimmerman may have been expecting Trayvon to run out the back entrance, and why Zimmerman may have tried to cut Trayvon off from going in that direction, comes from the police call logs. We know from Zimmerman’s previous calls to police that he had on at least two prior occasions called in to report that suspicious black males were hanging around the “back entrance” of the housing complex. (See pgs. 39-40 of the police dispatch logs.) On both those occasions, as with the call he made about Trayvon, Zimmerman stated that he believed the person he was watching had committed recent break ins in the neighborhood. On the two prior occasions, Zimmerman reported that the suspicious persons were at or headings towards the back entrance, and on one occasion, Zimmerman advised dispatch that the “subjects will run into the subdivision next to this complex,” and advised that law enforcement enter through the back entrance to meet him. It seems possible that if Zimmerman was going to follow Trayvon and lost him, his assumption would be Trayvon would be heading in that direction.
Approx. 7:15:30 – 7:15:45pm: Zimmerman and Trayvon encounter each other for the final time, in the area circled in red in the diagram above. At this point, all evidence from eye witnesses and police reports indicates that a fight between the two began and ended there, and that the parties did not substantially change position during the course of the struggle. Reports on the exact location of Trayvon’s body have varied, but it has been established it was somewhere in the grass in the row between the houses, closer to the north side than the south..
There are a half dozen different versions of how the altercation between Zimmerman and Trayvon occurred and what happened during the course of it.
7:15 – 7:16pm, DeeDee’s version of events: Trayvon tells DeeDee that he thinks he has lost the dude that was following him. DeeDee then hears voices, as if Trayvon and his pursuer have run into each other again. She says something like the following exchanged occurred between the two individuals:
- Trayvon: “Why are you following me?”
- Zimmerman: “What are you doing here?”
At that point, it sounds to DeeDee as if one party shoves the other. DeeDee thinks she hears Trayvon’s headset fall off, and the phone call cuts out at approximately 7:16pm, four minutes after it starts. It is my suspicion that the T-Mobile records are about 30 seconds slower than the time kept by the police dispatch’s clock– which would mean that the phone call started at 7:11:30, and ended at 7:15:30, a timeline that would mean that DeeDee’s description of events pretty much precisely matches up with the times as recorded by various 911 and police calls, down to the second. If her phone call with Trayvon instead ended at 7:16 on the police department’s clock, then the first 911 call from a neighbor came in 11 seconds or less after the fight initially started — that doesn’t seems plausible.
7:15 – 7:16pm, Zimmerman’s version of events: Zimmerman has not given an “official” version of his story, and the versions that have been reported by other sources are somewhat inconsistent, with some of the versions being extremely implausible. One initial report alleges that the confrontation began while Zimmerman was still in his truck, and that Trayvon approached the parked truck to ask Zimmerman why he was following him. Zimmerman “rolled down his window” to say he wasn’t, and Trayvon left, only for the fight to later occur on the cut through. This story has not been repeated since, and if Zimmerman really did initially give this version of events, he’s not sticking with it any longer.
The most consistent report that is alleged to be Zimmerman’s version of the encounter provides roughly the following: Zimmerman had gotten out of his car to check on an address, to tell police where to go. [This itself makes little sense — Zimmerman’s car was in front of the houses, where house addresses are visible and displayed, whereas behind the houses there are only porches and no visible addresses.] Zimmerman was then “returning to his truck,” [although still 150 ft. away, if his truck is in fact parked in the green circled area] but Trayvon approached Zimmerman from behind and confronted him. Either Trayvon (somehow) reaches around from behind to sucker punch Zimmerman in the nose, or else the two have a verbal confrontation and turn to face each other before the first punch is thrown. Zimmerman falls to the ground, and Trayvon jumps on him, punching Zimmerman and slamming his head into concrete. Zimmerman eventually is able to pull his handgun free from its holster and fires once at Trayvon, who is pinning him down. Trayvon is hit in the chest and dies.
7:15 – 7:16pm, Trayvon’s father’s recounting of how police described Zimmerman’s initial report to them:
- Trayvon: appears from behind a building, approaches Zimmerman, and says, “What’s your problem, homie?”
- Zimmerman: “I don’t have a problem.”
- Trayvon: “You do now.” He then punches Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground, pinning him down.
- Trayvon: tells Zimmerman, “Shut the fuck up.”
- Zimmerman: while being beaten by Trayvon, pulls his gun and fires one shot at close range into Trayvon’s chest.
- Trayvon: “You got me.” Falls over, dead.
7:15 – 7:16pm, Zimmerman’s father’s version of events: Zimmerman is walking along the sidewalk (area circled in red?) in order to “find an address.”
- Trayvon: walks up to Zimmerman, says, “Do you have a fucking problem?”
- Zimmerman: “No, I don’t have a problem.” Zimmerman starts to reach for his cell phone to call police, but Trayvon punches him in the nose. Zimmerman’s nose is broken and he is knocked to the concrete.
- Trayvon: gets on top of Zimmerman and punches him repeatedly. While punching Zimmerman on the ground below him, Trayvon sees Zimmerman’s gun.
- Trayvon: “You’re going to die tonight.”
- Zimmerman: draws his pistol while on the ground, and shoots Trayvon once in the chest.
7:15 – 7:16pm, Zimmerman’s brother’s version of events: Zimmerman’s brother states that Zimmerman was not patrolling the neighborhood; rather, he was driving to Target when he noticed a suspicious looking person in his gated community, and called the police to report it. Zimmerman’s brother alleges that Zimmerman stopped following Trayvon when the police dispatcher told him to. Zimmerman then then lost sight of Trayvon, and about a minute later, the following occurs:
- Trayvon: sneaks up on Zimmerman.
- Zimmerman: tries to grab his phone to call 911 and intends to say to police “Well, this person who I lost sight of and was not pursuing has now confronted me.” Zimmerman is unable to complete this call because Trayvon broke his nose with a punch, and began slamming Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk.
- Trayvon: sees Zimmerman’s gun and tries to grab it.
- Trayvon: says to Zimmerman either (1) “You die tonight,” or possibly (2) “You have a piece, you die tonight.”
- Zimmerman: screams for help, but then grabs gun and shoots Trayvon when Trayvon tries to muscle it away.
Zimmerman’s brother adds in that there is a witness that saw what happened, “from the first blow.” The brother does not explain why this witness did not help Zimmerman, who he is, or why he was around to see the fight in the first place.
7:15 – 7:16pm, version of events attributed to “Zimmerman’s parents”: An unidentified female neighbor and friend reports that Zimmerman’s parents are strongly maintaining that the shooting was in self-defense: “What [Zimmerman’s parents] told us is that he was reaching for his cell phone and Trayvon Martin saw his gun and reached for the gun and there was a struggle.” This story is somewhat reminiscent of Zimmerman’s brother’s story, regarding Zimmerman going for a phone, which ignited the physical struggle.
7:15 – 7:16pm, unidentified law enforcement official’s version of events: The Daily Beast quotes an unidentified individual with the Sanford Police Department who is not involved in the case but apparently had some exposure to the investigation. According to him, Zimmerman’s statement to police was that after losing track of Trayvon, Zimmerman “went around a townhouse to see where he was.” This supports two things: first, that Zimmerman was actively hunting for Trayvon at the time of the altercation, and second, that Zimmerman was not following the sidewalk routes, but ducking through gaps in houses. This is possible support for the theory that Zimmerman unexpectedly cut off Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk routes. It also puts the “Trayvon was in hiding waiting to attack Zimmerman” theory in doubt, because it’s not clear how Trayvon’s could have anticipated Zimmerman’s unusual path.
The law enforcement official also reports that Zimmerman’s story is that Martin confronted him, and then knocked him to the ground with a punch. Zimmerman then said that “when he was on the ground, Martin straddled him, striking him, and then tried to smother him.” This ‘smothering’ claim is a new detail that has not been repeated before, and it’s somewhat confusing. If Trayvon was in fact on top of Zimmerman, perhaps Zimmerman interpreted the weight on his chest as an attempt to “smother” him, but the idea that any attacker in Trayvon’s situation would try and use “smothering” as an attack does not make much sense. The law enforcement official’s report goes on to state that:
Zimmerman claimed that he yelled for help, and that various neighbors who peered out to see the fight from their backyards didn’t get involved. Zimmerman… told officers he was so paralyzed by fear that he initially forgot he had a gun, but he said that after Martin noticed his 9mm pistol, Zimmerman pulled it out of his belt holder and fired one round, a hollow-point—the round that killed Martin.
Zimmerman also told police that, after being shot, Trayvon’s last words were “Okay, you got it, okay, you got it,” and then Trayvon turned and fell face-down on the ground. Although these words sounds similar to what Trayvon’s dad were told his last words were — i.e., “you got me” — even assuming Zimmerman is telling the truth as he knows it, my assumption is that he misheard Trayvon. Someone seconds from death from a hollow point bullet wound to the chest is not going to be enunciating clearly or making dramatic statements. The more likely scenario is that Trayvon said something like “you shot me… you shot me,” in disbelief and shock.
Finally, the last new information from the Daily Beast’s source is that “Zimmerman told police he didn’t realize that Martin was seriously injured, and that he lunged to get on top of him after the teenager fell to the ground.” This would seem to match one of the 911 caller’s statements to the 911 dispatcher which, although confused, reported seeing Zimmerman on top of Trayvon after the shooting. Although it should have been obvious that a point blank shot to the chest with a hollow point bullet is going to be a serious wound all of the time and a fatal wound most of the time, it is believable that, with the adrenaline pumping, Zimmerman wasn’t thinking clearly. However, this is also another indication that Zimmerman’s subjective interpretation of events should be treated with cautious skepticism — Zimmerman was plainly not thinking completely logically or coherently, if he thought the bullet to the chest was not a “serious injury.” The fact Zimmerman thought it necessary to try and restrain Trayvon and “lunge to get on top of him” after shooting the kid in the chest shows Zimmerman’s threat detection systems were on overload,.
7:16:11 pm: The first of six 911 calls is made by a neighbor whose house is immediately adjacent to where the shooting occurred. A high pitched, desperate male voice can be heard yelling “help” repeatedly, from the very beginning of the phone call, and continues on for some time — there are occasional pauses, and occasional nonsensical yells, but for the most part the voice is consistently yelling “help” “help” “help” over and over again.
7:16:56 pm: Forty-five seconds into the first 911 call, a gunshot is heard. The last cry of “hel-” seems to be cut off simultaneously with the shot. Assuming that the first 911 caller took at least 15 seconds to hear sounds of fighting, recognize what it was, and pull out a phone to make a 911 call, this means that the physical struggle between Zimmerman and Trayvon went on for a minimum of one minute. The first 911 caller was still quick on the draw, however, and is unlikely to have taken more than 30 seconds to make the call. This gives a maximum fight duration of perhaps a minute and a half. Estimate time of the fight’s beginning is therefore 7:15:35 – 7:15:55pm.
7:17:55 pm (estimated): By around 17:17:55 – 17:18:07pm, several 911 callers report seeing a “man with a flashlight” outside, followed by a second flash light approximately one minute, fifteen seconds later. These are almost certainly Officers Smith and Ayala, who were first on the scene.
Officer Smith, the first officer to arrive, parks his car at 2821 Retreat View Circle. Officer Smith has been dispatched to respond to police calls made by Zimmerman twice before in recent weeks, once on January 29, 2012, and once again on February 6, 2012. He likely has encountered and spoken to Zimmerman before, although this has not been officially confirmed. Per the police report of the incident, when he arrives on scene on the night of February 26, a few seconds before 7:18pm, he cuts through the houses on the Retreat View side of the walkway, and into the area circled in red. He sees Zimmerman walking around and Trayvon lying “face down in the grass.” Zimmerman states to Smith that he shot the individual on the ground, and that he was still armed. Smith immediately moves to remove the gun, and observes that Zimmerman has a wet back and appears to be covered in grass, “as if he had been laying on his back on the ground.” He observes blood on the back of Zimmerman’s head, and on his nose. He removes from Zimmerman’s “waist band” the handgun and holster — it is not clear if the handgun is in the holster, or if both the holster and handgun are tucked into the waistband. He puts Zimmerman in the back of his squad car.
Officer Ayala arrives about a minute after Officer Smith, and observes Trayvon laying face down. His police report indicates that he observed that Trayvon “had his hands underneath his body.” Ayala begins emergency response treatment, but Trayvon never becomes responsive. He will be pronounced dead 11 minutes later.
The later-released police reports state that when Officers Raimondo and Ayala approached Trayvon’s body to attempt first aid, Trayvon “was lying on his stomach with his head oriented in the general direction of north.” In contrast, Officer Santiago, who arrives later on the scene, reports that Trayvon’s head “to the west.” It’s unclear if Trayvon’s head was actually oriented northwest, and both officers are right, or if Trayvon was rotated during the course of CPR.
Photos of the crime scene seem to show Trayvon’s body laying in the grass approx. 5-6 feet from the sidewalk. Trayvon was rolled over by police when they attempted to give first aid, so it’s possible he was originally laid out approx. 4-5 feet from the sidewalk. Either way, it does bring Zimmerman’s “head being bashed into concrete” story into doubt.
At autopsy, Trayvon’s cause of death is determined to be a single gunshot to the chest, which struck Tayvon’s heart and a lung, “1/2 inch below the nipple.” The direction of the gunshot is reported as “directly from front to back,” and was shot from “an intermediate distance.” The only other injury reported to Trayvon is 1/4″ by 1/8″ inch small abrasion to the left fourth finger.
The ME report also states that “Witnesses observed the two fighting in the yard and then the resident fired a handgun at the male striking him In the chest. The male fell to the ground.” It would appear the ME was given incomplete or inaccurate information regarding how the shooting took place, which was then incorporated into the report.
7:19pm: An unidentified civilian described only as “the photographer” takes a picture of the back of Zimmerman’s head. ABC News reports that file details show it was taken on location “three minutes after the shooting[,]” although the exact time is not specified. The photograph clearly shows the blood that was reported by Officer Smith, and it appears that the blood is coming from a wound on Zimmerman’s head, and did not originate from another source. This photo is useful in that it eliminates all outlier possibilities regarding Zimmerman’s head wound — that is, we can rule out the possibilities that either no wound existed, or that the wound was so great that, as Zimmerman’s brother reported, his head was a bloody pulp — but it is impossible to tell from this picture alone the exact extent of the wound. There isn’t enough blood for there to have been a serious gash, but for head injuries, a gash is going to be a far less serious problem than are non-visible internal injuries. On the other hand, the SFD’s actions, in treating Zimmerman’s injuries, do not indicate that they any apparent concern for a brain injury of any type.
The wound is also very high up on Zimmerman’s head. I’m not entirely sure what to make of that — I think the wound pretty much has to have originated from Zimmerman’s head contacting the ground, but it’s not where I would expect it if it came from either a fall or from a deliberate attempt to smack someone’s head into the ground.
The ABC News “photographer” also states that gunpowder marks were clearly visible on Martin’s hooded sweatshirt. Using my CSI training, a.k.a., by doing some quick google research, gunpowder residue will be somewhat apparent on a target that was shot from a range of around three feet or less, but heavy concentrations show up at shooting ranges of under 12 inches. If the gunpowder marks were clearly visible on gray fabric, in night time viewing conditions, then I think it is a fair assumption that Zimmerman shot Trayvon from a distance of 12 inches or less.
7:22pm, onwards: Zimmerman is taken into custody and cuffed by Officer Smith shortly before Officer Ayala arrives. As Ayala is giving CPR to Trayvon, Smith puts Zimmerman in the back of the police cruiser. Zimmerman receives first aid from the Sanford Fire Department while sitting in the back of Officer Smith’s car. At some point, Zimmerman announces, unasked, “I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me.” No questioning is performed at this time, and he is transported to the police station.
Police appear to have immediately accepted Zimmerman’s version of events. When one witness/911 caller gave a statement to police about an hour later, she started crying and stated she wished she could have helped. The officer responds, “If it makes you feel any better, the cries for help were not the person that died.” It’s clear that the police poisoned the witness statements by instructing the witnesses as to details they had not witnessed or did not know themselves, which likely contributed to the recent witness reversals and contradictions in testimony.
While performing first aid on Trayvon, Officer Raimondo finds a “large, cold can” of Arizona drink in Trayvon’s hoodie pocket. Officer Santiago reported that a cell phone was found “near the area of Martin”, but does not give precise details. The packet of skittles are also located in the hoodie pocket, and have traces of blood on them.
Investigators at the scene also find a key chain with a Honda remote key on it, which reportedly belongs to Zimmerman, near the “T” junction of the pathway between the houses. The key chain has a small silver flashlight-key chain attached to it, and the flashlight has been reported as still being on when police located it, suggesting Zimmerman was using it at the time of the altercation.
There is also a black flashlight found ~30 feet from the Honda key chain, closer to Trayvon’s body; this black flashlight had blood residue on it. I’ve seen the 6″ black flashlight described as belonging to Zimmerman, but I have seen no confirming reports for this. The black flashlight is also described as a “tactical” flashlight that could be used as a weapon; this may suggest it came from a responding police officer rather than Zimmerman, but the proximity to the keys could suggest it was Zimmerman’s, and dropped along with the keys when the confrontation started.
If the flashlight belongs to the police, the blood evidence found on it is insignificant and easily explainable. If it belongs to Zimmerman, however, it is a somewhat incongruous finding, as the flashlight if several feet away from where the “main” physical altercation is reported to have taken place, and is at least 10 feet away from where Trayvon was shot. If Zimmerman simply dropped the flashlight and keys before the fight started, there would not be blood on the flashlight — this possibly suggests that Zimmerman was still holding the tactical flashlight when he received the injury to his nose. But if so, why did Zimmerman not use it to defend himself against Trayvon? The tactical flashlight was Zimmerman’s, and during Zimmerman’s non-emergency call, you can hear him banging it to try and turn it on. Zimmerman seems to have had it in his hands during the altercation, but Zimmerman’s recounting of the fight is unclear about how he managed to carry it with him throughout the fight.
Although the keychain flashlight/Honda keys were found closer to the sidewalk on the “T” than was the tactical flashlight and the body, the shell casing from the shot that killed Trayvon is found ~40 feet from the “T”, and several feet away from the sidewalk. It appears to be located close to where Trayvon’s body ultimately ended up, but this is difficult to confirm from the released photos. above his head and slightly to the left.
The shell casing is marked by the yellow arrow, just left to the #6 marker. The #7 marker is Trayvon’s phone, while the #5 marker is the black tactical flashlight.
7:52pm: Time stamp on start of surveillance video of Sanford police department showing Zimmerman’s arrival in squad car. Zimmerman’s shirt is neatly tucked in, and he is moving without any apparent impediment beyond the handcuffs. Police allow him to move freely, aside from the cuffs. There is no visible blood, and police officers use no protective equipment; they can be observed inspecting Zimmerman, as well as manually handling him as they look him over. One policeman touches Zimmerman, and then wipes his hand off on his trousers. A small head wound on the upper back portion of Zimmerman’s head may be visible.
Photos taken before the blood was cleaned up from Zimmerman’s scalp show blood draining in small rivulets down his skull, rather than gushing. It may be significant that the rivulets uniformly tend to drain towards Zimmerman’s face, which means whenever Zimmerman was bleeding, his head was facing towards the ground. It is unclear when this bleeding occurred, however.
Back at the station, Zimmerman gave his story to police at least three times before being released. Police say his story remained consistent throughout, although we have not been provided with the precise contours of what that story consisted of. Zimmerman also made at least one of those statements while being video recorded.
Notes and Observations about the Timeline
In no particular order, here are some assorted observations about what implications the above timeline has on Trayvon Martin’s death.
The eye witness reports should not be relied upon. It was dark, there was bad weather, it was a brief and frantic fight, and no one knows what they saw. Eye witnesses get things wrong even under the best of viewing conditions, and the conditions at the time of Trayvon’s death were anything but that, in terms of expected reliability of witness recall. The 911 calls are themselves full of real-time descriptions from witnesses to the immediate aftermath of the shooting — and even when describing what they were seeing at the exact same time as they were seeing it, their descriptions do not match reality. One witness, for instance, describes that “there is a black male standing over” the deceased victim after the shooting had occurred, which is obviously an incorrect description of the scene. Another witness describing the fight states that “the guy on top has a white t-shirt” — an article of clothing which neither Zimmerman nor Trayvon were wearing at the time. (Zimmerman’s t-shirt was gray, but it was under a red (orange) jacket. Trayvon’s hoodie was gray as well, but it was long sleeved and not a t-shirt.)
In short, the witnesses can prove next to nothing about what happened here. The recordings of the 911 calls that they made, on the other hand, are far more useful in piecing together what happened.
[Update, 5/28/12: By now, at least five witnesses have been reported as changing their stories. This is unsurprising, particularly as it has become clear that the police who took the witness statements improperly coached and/or unintentionally tampered with the witness’s recollections, by telling them facts and events they could not know in order to “correct” or “clarify” their testimony. In short, it has become even more clear that no definitive conclusions should be drawn about any of the events in this cases on the basis of eyewitness testimony alone.]
Zimmerman’s testimony is not being publicly disclosed, but will be an important source of impeachment evidence at trial. The State’s 5/24/12 Motion for Protective Order revealed a key element of the State’s case: Zimmerman’s statements to the police have been inconsistent, and are not fully supported by the available physical and eye witness evidence: “Defendant (Zimmerman) has provided law enforcement with numerous statements, some of which are contradictory, and are inconsistent with the physical evidence and statements of witnesses”. At this point we don’t know what Zimmerman’s version of the story is, but it looks like there’s at least more than one version he has been telling police, and it has some holes in it.
The crime scene does not support Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon was pounding his head into the sidewalk. Trayvon was unarmed. Perhaps to make up for this fact, Zimmerman’s claim for why he was in imminent fear of death or grave bodily harm — and therefore why Zimmerman was allowed to kill Trayvon in self-defense — is that Trayvon was pounding his head into the concrete sidewalk. Although there is a sidewalk running through the middle of where the shooting occurred, the claim that Zimmerman’s head was being bashed into it does not make sense, because: (1) Zimmerman’s back had grass on it. Assuming that Zimmerman and Trayvon encountered each other while on the sidewalk, how could Zimmerman have fallen so that his legs and back were off the sidewalk, while his head was still on it? (2) Zimmerman was a bouncer for illegal house parties; during the course of a 1 minute long fight with a kid thirty pounds lighter than him, there is no possible explanation for how Zimmerman was able to move enough to get his back and legs onto grass, but not his head. In order to pound someone’s head into the ground while they are pinned down, you would literally have to pull their head up with one hand and before shoving it down again — and a one-armed pin is far easier to break. If you are pinning someone down with both arms, there is no way for you to repeatedly slam their head down, short of physically picking them up by the shoulders (while you’re sitting on their waist). (3) Trayvon’s body was found face down in the grass, with his arms underneath him. According to his father, Trayvon’s legs were on the sidewalk, while his head and torso were perpendicular to the sidewalk, on the grass. If Trayvon was shot in the chest while pinning/punching Zimmerman on the ground, his body would presumably have crumpled down to where it was found — which was in the grass, and not on the sidewalk. If Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned, face to face, how did his head ultimately come to be far away from the sidewalk, if just before he was shot he was pounding Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk?
How Zimmerman got out from underneath Trayvon after shooting him, without rolling Trayvon onto his back, is another mystery. It also contradicts at least one report of what Zimmerman said happened, which is that Trayvon “fell back” saying “you got me” after the shooting. The best explanation for how Trayvon’s body was found that I can think of is that Trayvon, after being shot, fell on his back, or was pushed off of Zimmerman onto his back/side. Zimmerman, who witnesses have described as “standing over” the victim immediately after the shooting, then turns Trayvon onto his stomach, perhaps to check for an exit wound or in a clumsy attempt to see if he was still alive. This would plausibly cause at least one of Trayvon’s arms to be pinned under his body, and possibly the second. Or perhaps only one arm was pinned under Trayvon’s body, and Officer Ayala did not correctly see the positioning of the second arm.
Voice analysis of the first 911 call will be the single most important factor in this case. Listening to the first 911 call, it is painfully clear that whoever can be heard shouting for help is in imminent fear for their life. This isn’t the scream of someone in a wrestling match — it’s the wild, animal panic of someone who believes that they are about to die. If the voice shouting “help” is in fact Zimmerman’s, then, whether or not such a fear was objectively reasonable, his subjective fear that Trayvon was about to kill him would appear to be entirely genuine.
However, if the voice is in fact Zimmerman’s, then it also shows that Zimmerman was in control enough of the fight to have the breath to scream and plead for help, and that his shouts for “help” were not cut off by Trayvon “slamming” his head into the sidewalk. It is not the scream of someone “nearly unconscious,” as Zimmerman’s brother and father have alleged. And, whether it was Trayvon or Zimmerman screaming, the mere existence of the screams is inconsistent with the verbal exchange between the two as recounted by Zimmerman. No one is yelling “time to die” or “you got me” — they are yelling “help,” and nothing else.
This brings into question Zimmerman’s statement, while being given first aid in the back of the squad car, that “I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me.” First, this slightly contradicts the claims given by both Zimmerman’s father and brother, which is that a more coherent conversation was going on. Second, Zimmerman would have every motivation to make this claim. If it was Trayvon yelling for help, Zimmerman would have known that neighbors in the nearby houses were likely to have heard it. He would have known he would need to explain the existence of the calls for help, and that, if it were known it was Trayvon screaming, it would look very bad for him.
But Zimmerman probably would not have considered the possibility his fight with Trayvon had been recorded in the background of a 911 call — the odds were against someone being that fast on the draw with their phone. So Zimmerman would not have had any reason to think it likely that his claims that it was him yelling for help, and not Trayvon, could be credibly challenged. It seemed like a completely safe — and completely necessary — claim at the time that he made it, but, if proven to be false, that statement could ultimately damn him by showing he was aware that what he had done was wrong and that he needed to lie to protect himself.
Zimmerman was in handcuffs less than 1.5 minutes after he killed Trayvon. In the police surveillance footage of Zimmerman arriving at the police station a half hour after Trayvon was killed, Zimmerman is shown being frisked and lead to an interview room. There is no sign of blood on him, although a possible wound on the upper back portion of his head may exist. Perhaps the oddest part of the surveillance video, however, is that Zimmerman’s shirt is tucked in, there are no visible scuff marks on his clothes, and nothing appears out of place. Zimmerman received cursory medical treatment while sitting in a squad car, hands cuffed behind him. The SFD likely dabbed up some blood, but they certainly didn’t tuck Zimmerman’s shirt in for him.
So, in the 90 seconds between shooting Trayvon and Officer Smith’s arrival on the scene, at which point Zimmerman was immediately handcuffed, did Zimmerman actually bother to nicely tuck his shirt in again? Or did Zimmerman’s shirt manage to stay perfectly tucked in for a one minute period while Zimmerman was punched to the ground and pinned down by someone who was on top of him in a fight?
Neither option is particularly plausible, especially combined with the absence of any blood or plain wounds. Zimmerman’s story is severely lacking in corroborating physical evidence — and if there were still photos taken of Zimmerman to support his claim that he was beaten up, why hasn’t someone leaked them by now? Or the medical records for the ‘broken nose’? The photo of Zimmerman showing blood on his face is not blood from a broken nose, but rather blood from two tiny cuts on the very point of Zimmerman’s nose — likely a result of kickback from Zimmerman firing the weapon, as no blood (or other DNA from Zimmerman) was found anywhere on Trayvon.
It’s likely that Zimmerman did in fact suffer a bump to his head, and maybe his nose, during the initial struggle with Trayvon. Zimmerman did hit the ground at some point, and Trayvon and Zimmerman were wrestling with one another for at least a minute. It’d be surprising if Zimmerman hadn’t picked up a bump or two from the tussle. But nothing about this indicates the injuries were anything but minor. My guess is that Zimmerman, in trying to explain his actions, took whatever reasons he could to claim he was in danger — and thus the bloody nose becomes a broken one in his re-telling, and a grazing would on his head that he got when he fell down becomes someone bashing his head into the sidewalk.
-Susan
The View From LL2 
This could explain the Blond that was all over the news saying she saw Zimmerman on top, She seemed to want a Public Hanging of Zimmerman on her testimony alone, but If Zimmerman made all of his statements before she went public then her statement could just end up supporting his story. Most all of his statements will be released barring some move by the judge eventually anyway, but this is one more piece of the puzzle.
This blog is getting long, but there is a lot of really good information from different people in it.
Sorry, apparently I am having an identity crisis today. 🙂
I’m pretty sure that she was one of the 911 callers. The dispatcher asked if there were any children, and she said No, and then Yes, 3. She is calling out to “Selma”, and relays that it is the “Black guy standing up” and is telling someone else to call “Shirley” and have her lock her door. She says she doesn’t want to look outside. And then the dispatcher wants to ask some more questions, and she says there must be other 911 callers, and the dispatcher said that were, and she says “ok thank you”. The dispatcher had to press, to make sure that the police had arrived.
The police tried to interview them that night, and they refused, and they gave them a form to make a written statement, which one of the apparently filled out in a very cursory fashion.
It will be interesting to see where the tea and skittles were found. If they were found on Trayvon’s front porch, then definitely, Trayvon passed up his back patio to go around to the front of the house (on Retreat View Circle). But if Trayvon’s father had told Trayvon to stay home, Trayvon may not have had a key. Maybe, when Trayvon went to the store, he left the back patio door unlocked, but passed up that back entrance because he could see Zimmerman following him.
I don’t believe Trayvon hid at all. It doesn’t appear to be a logical choice, for all the reasons stated in my very long post above.
If Trayvon ran around to the front (Dee Dee said Trayvon was “nervous” about Zimmmerman and ran “around from the back”), and if Trayvon didn’t have a key to the front door but the back door was unlocked, then when Trayvon thought Zimmerman had gone back to his truck, Trayvon may have run north up Retreat View Circle, then around the second row of buildings and then south again toward his back patio. Zimmerman may have been near his truck by that time and waiting for the police. He may have spotted Trayvon making the turn back south between the rows. If Trayvon didn’t see Zimmerman, Trayvon may have thought he’d lost Zimmerman, so Trayvon didn’t run. Zimmerman may have easily caught up with Trayvon at the exact spot where the conflict occurred.
Looks very creative.
If I understand you correctly, Trayvon, while at the front of Brandy’s apt and upon seeing Zimmerman going back to his truck (presumably with x-ray vision), instead of simply going a few feet back to the back entrance, instead decides to run in circles to get back to the intersecting paths to again run towards the back door.
The tea and skittles were found in his pockets
If a strange guy confronted me after following me for no known reason, and if I’d already tried running from the guy but he found me again, and if the guy pushed me hard, and if I also saw that the guy had a gun, I just might throw a punch at the guy and try to restrain him while calling for help.
Trayvon may have been fighting for his life. Police wear a uniform and a badge for a good reason. Neighborhood watch guys are trained by police not to follow suspects for a good reason.
Something else for everyone to note who thinks of Trayvon as some kind of “thug”, and therefore believes that Trayvon must have attacked Zimmerman:
None of us were there and we can’t say what happened. However, we do know that Zimmerman has a known history of violence. Trayvon does not.
The judge said that even though it was in a different jurisdiction (Orlando) he said he though he had a good idea how things were handled in what he referred to as the UCF Corridor (University of Central Florida)
It was a bar and there were plainclothes ABC agents checking for underage drinking. Being near a college campus, you’re going to send in a 50 YO bald guy with a paunch and a cheap suit, right? No you’re going to send someone who looks like he might be a college student.
The ABC agent was interviewing an employee when Zimmerman came up and begin talking. The agent claims he identified himself and showed his badge, and then as he was leading him away, Zimmerman shrugged his shoulders and pushed him away. So did the ABC agent really show his badge, or did he just grab Zimmerman by the shoulders and push him toward the door, and Zimmerman indicated he didn’t help walking by shrugging him off. It was then that he was arrested.
Presumably the ABC doesn’t want to put a lot of 18 YO in jail, but to put enough economic threat on bars that they will card check thoroughly, so they don’t lose their liquor license. So individuals get pre-trial diversion. The state doesn’t spend money on a trial or a prison, somebody makes some money on anger management courses – and assuming that they work, Zimmerman no longer has an anger problem, if he ever did.
Or if Judge Lester was not indicating how arrests were handled, he was indicating how he thought the ABC acted.
Exactly! And if you really think about Zimmerman’s first charge, he was defending “AN UNDERAGE” person being served alcohol. At a minimum, since Zimmerman claims to have been defending a “friend”, the adult Zimmerman has UNDERAGED teen “friends” that he thinks it’s perfectly ok for bars to serve. That might put his “mentoring” activities in a new light, eh?
We’ve also learned his wife was studying nursing. Isn’t Florida the state where everybody goes to get legal drugs like oxycotin? I’ve wondered if Zimmerman and family/friends were protected because of reasons other than being the neighborhood watch captains if you get my drift.
Wasn’t it reported early on that a DEA detective the first on the scene instead of a homicide detective?
@CSFC
His friend was an employee who was being shoved against a wall by a plainclothes ABC agent. We don’t know how the ABC agent was dressed. If he was working undercover, he would have been dressed to look like a college student – very casual.
The assault was Zimmerman shrugging his shoulders and pushing the plainclothes officer away with his arms as he was being led away.
Did not the judge address this issue at the bond hearing? If I recall, he asked several questions.
Does anyone have a link to the FULL transcript of the hearing? All I can find is the one from CNN and it leaves out parts during their breaks.
@insp gadget had posted these earlier (there are a lot of other links in his message, well worth tracking down). Also if you search for “wral” he posted times of various parts of the video.
Bond Hearing (Full Video)
http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815
CNN Transcript of Bond Hearing.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html
The judge made his order at the end of the hearing. Zimmerman is presumed innocent. If he will show up for trial, there is no basis for keeping him in jail. He has been cooperative with the police, and continually kept them aware of his whereabouts. He has GPS monitoring.
The other issues is whether he is likely to commit other crimes. The judge made the comment that he thought he had an idea of how things are handled in what he referred to as the USF Corridor (the area around the University of Central Florida, in Orlando). This implies that it is quite normal to reduce felony charges to misdemeanors and then expunge based on some sort of alternative activity, such as anger management courses. The alleged assault was not someone taking a swing at a police officer. It was shrugging shoulders and pushing the arms away of a plainclothes ABC agent.
Sorry I haven’t found a decent transcript.
If it helps here is a breakdown of the video, most of the conversation about Zimmerman’s past was asked of his Wife, Father, and Mother.
Bond Hearing (Full Video)
http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815
TIME: 8:20 to 18:30 Zimmerman’s Wife questioned by Zimmerman’s Lawyer Mark O’Mara.
TIME: 18:30 to 28:25 Zimmerman’s wife questioned by the Prosecution.
TIME: 28:25 to 34:00 Zimmerman’s wife questioned by O’Mara.
TIME: 34:50 to 40:50 Zimmerman’s father questioned by O’Mara.
TIME: 40:50 to 48:09 Zimmerman’s father questioned by Prosecution.
TIME: 48:09 to 50:40 Zimmerman’s father questioned by O’Mara.
TIME: 51:02 to 1:01:38 Zimmerman’s mother questioned by O’Mara.
TIME: 1:01:38 to 1:03:21 Zimmerman’s mother questioned by Prosecution.
TIME: 1:04:00 Phone Interviews Concluded
TIME: 1:05:38 Officer Dale Gilbreath (Prosecution Lead Investigator) Called.
The last 15 Minutes were Zimmerman and Final statements to the Judge.
StanS. If Trayvon had last seen Zimmerman headed south, and if Trayvon wanted to put some distance between himself and Zimmerman, then Trayvon when Trayvon ran around the south end of the rows, he could have run north on Retreat View Circle and ended up closer to the north end of the rows.
He may have waited there or somewhere near the midpoint of the row on Retreat View Circle to see if Zimmerman would come around the row. When Zimmerman didn’t, Trayvon may have thought he’d lost Zimmerman and that Zimmerman had returned to his truck either by going north up Twin Trees or back north along the sidewalk between the rows.
Zimmerman may have done just that (either route). Trayvon may have taken a look at the top of the row, not seen Zimmerman, and then gone around the north end, and headed south again towards his back patio. After all, we want to believe that Zimmerman headed back to his truck, right? Zimmerman may have been back behind the first row by his SUV when Trayvon went around. But if Zimmerman was pacing or moving around by his truck, he might have caught a glimpse of Trayvon just as Trayvon headed south again between the rows.
Not much point to keep repeating these unlikely theories. This is because the police already have a re-enactment of Zimmerman’s movements (most certainly timed to the second) just before the fight from — Zimmerman has already walked through the events for the police. The police found Zimmerman’s re-enactment consistent with self defense, so they originally let him go.
Why not wait until Zimmerman’s reenactment comes out before advancing very lengthy, and superficially convoluted explanations?
Thanks WayneM for your note that the tea and skittles were found in Trayvon’s pockets. Trayvon could have gone anywhere and made any kind of move if he were not having to hold his purchases in his hands.
I did a lot of research to find that and think I posted the link here before. Yes, his hands were free for the fight .
Trayvon Martin’s YouTube channel, before it was purged, had two (of five) videos of teenagers boxing outside his high school. There’s a tall teenager in a black and silver striped shirt who appears to be acting as a referee of sorts. Here is the video so you can judge for yourself if it is Trayvon (until the video is purged):
If you look closely at about 1:47 of the video at the right arm of the ‘referee’ you will see a distinctive tattoo that matches exactly the one Trayvon has.
The cameraman on the video says, “Watch out Trayvon, or I’ll slap you nigga,” so Trayvon’s first name is used.
The video is too grainy to see Trayvon’s face, but the video was uploaded to his YouTube account, and the cameraman does mention him by name.
I don’t expect the video to remain up long, raising the following interesting question: Can Crump have the video removed without admitting the video was Trayvon’s?
[SMS note: Video removed. You can google it if you want to find it for yourself. Please don’t post anything displaying images of or identifying minors that happen to have connections to this case; that’s not what the discussion here is about.]
Correction, the time the ‘referee’s’ (in the striped shirt) arm is visible is from about 32 seconds until about 1 minute into the video.
StanS, I’m not sure why you would think that Zimmerman’s version of events would be the last word on what exactly happened.
However, it will definitely be interesting to hear what he has to say.
As I am sure you are aware, Zimmerman version of events, to prevail on his self-defense claim, must be disproved beyond a reasonable doubt by the prosecution.
Otherwise, the last two words from the jury (if the case is not thrown out earlier by the Judge) are: “not guilty.”
If you had a son who:
1. Called himself a “no limit nigga”;
2. Referred street fights;
3. Posted violent tweets;
4. Got a “grill”;
5. Linked to at least one gang banger on twitter; and
6. Had just been suspended from school for the third time
Would you be surprised if he took a swing at someone?
Actually, I would be shocked since none of what you said indicates a pattern of violence, although Zimmerman’s history is rife with violence against others.
Your implications indicate that you don’t understand fact from stereotypical assumptions.
@CommonSenseForChange – “rife with violence”? Seriously? I’ve posted this link before, but if you want to find out more about Zimmerman AND about how he assisted in his neighborhood and what his neighbors thought of him, read this article:
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/25/11396690-george-zimmerman-prelude-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin
Even in this article, the media cannot still cannot report the truth. It’s fine until the end when it distorts the truth, This was originally reported in Reuters, I think. Notice this:
This time, Zimmerman was not so patient, and he disregarded police advice against pursuing Martin.
Mark,
Why is it that I have had to moderate a half dozen comments here because commenters, with no intention but to provoke others and disparage a dead kid, insist on referring to Trayvon by his twitter handle, and yet I’ve not had to moderate a single post with someone derogatorily referring to Zimmerman as “Dat Niggy”?
The “Trayvon’s twitter feed shows Zimmerman was justified in killing him!” argument is absurd, and horrifying, and, to be honest, I find it to be borderline racist, although I’m sure reasonable minds can differ on that point.
But like most kids, I posted a lot of dumb things on the internet when I was a teenager, and my high school disciplinary record was worse than Trayvon’s. And yet, I’m pretty sure my parents still would have been shocked if I’d ever randomly taken a swing at someone. Because being a dumb kid doesn’t make you likely to attempt to murder a neighbor for looking at you funny.
“I love the fact that I can still go back home and crash on my boys couch as if i had never left, I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin with my sister and he’s at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! They do a year and dont ever open thier [sic] mouth to get my ass pinched.”
“Im still free! The ex hoe tried her hardest, but the judge saw through it! Big Mike, reppin the Dverse security makin me look a million bucks, broke her down! Thanks to everyone for checkin up on me! Stay tuned for the A.T.F. charges……”
“I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin on the side of the street, soft ass wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) dont make you a man in my book… Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into!”
The money is being collected. Maybe a congressional medal of honor would also be in order. [SMS note: Pointless inflammatory comments removed. TruthBeTold, welcome to the conversation, but let’s try and keep a civil tone here.]
Thanks but I am still looking for the full transcript. I had thought someone here posted it but can’t find it.
I don’t know of a transcript. What CNN refers to as a “transcript” is actually a transcript of their broadcast.
There were minutes of the hearing that were released, but they were simply a list of who testified. I don’t know if there will be a transcript produced by the court reported or not.
Someone posted a few quotes from Gilbreath’s testimony, and the time intervals of the different persons who testified. Lot’s of it, you can kind of listen in the background.
Susan,
I would like to respond to the issue of “moderation” of comments:
Regarding videos and images per se: Substantively they are no different than written words in portraying a form of evidence relevant to the issues in this case. Words, particularly adjectives, hearsay statements and speculation (rampant in the media and this column) convey ideas and images in the same manner as videos and pictorial images … they are simply the form of communication.
In one of my posts, I linked to a video that was widely reported as coming from Trayvon’s YouTube account, with the disclaimer (stated, unlike many other posters) that confirmation is not certain that the ‘referee’ in the fight scene is Trayvon, although there is visual and verbal evidence in the video it is him.
In removing that video link (but still leaving the rest of the post), you stated:
“Please don’t post anything displaying images of or identifying minors that happen to have connections to this case; that’s not what the discussion here is about.”
However, the video provides supporting evidence (and it will most certainly be used at trial) of a predilection or at least an acceptance of (punching) violence that Zimmerman will certainly use in his self defense argument — he suffered a broken nose from a punch and claims Trayvon was the aggressor.
Besides a possible predilection to violence, the video shows the physical size of Trayvon at the time of the shooting in a manner far more clearly than any written word. Physical size is a key issue in this case. There is no moderation of written descriptions of Trayvon’s size and weight, so why would a picture of Trayvon physical size (compared to others) taken about the time of the incident, not be relevant?
Pictures and images of Trayvon are everywhere in news reports … including in family videos and pictures displayed by the news media.
About ‘minors’: Unfortunately, this case is virtually entirely about ‘minors’, i.e., Trayvon (who was shot) and ‘DeeDee’ (the principal witness against Zimmerman). They are major figures in this case. It appears disingenuous to, on the one hand use these major figures in the case in a manner to convict Zimmerman, but on the other hand, suppress impeachment and other contrary evidence of innocence relating to those figures. Impeachment and other contrary evidence of innocence relating to those figures will be major evidence at trial.
Your also state:
“The “Trayvon’s twitter feed shows Zimmerman was justified in killing him!” argument is absurd, and horrifying, and, to be honest, I find it to be borderline racist, although I’m sure reasonable minds can differ on that point.”
At trial, the purpose of showing Trayvon’s twitter feed is not as justification for the shooting, but only as evidence of a tendency to violence that would explain Trayvon’s punching Zimmerman first (Zimmerman’s defense). The jury (and presumably the intelligent readers of this column) will weigh this factor in their decision on guilt or innocence. You make it clear that you believe Trayvon’s twitter postings have very little evidentiary value, others may disagree. The jury (and your readers) will ultimately decide on the value of that ‘evidence. However, to suppress it leads to an even bigger gap than currently exists between the “public” trial of Zimmerman and the real trial.
You also state:
“But like most kids, I posted a lot of dumb things on the internet when I was a teenager, and my high school disciplinary record was worse than Trayvon’s. And yet, I’m pretty sure my parents still would have been shocked if I’d ever randomly taken a swing at someone. Because being a dumb kid doesn’t make you likely to attempt to murder a neighbor for looking at you funny.”
Under normal circumstances that is a reasonable statement. Youthful transgressions (including violence) tend to dissipate over time. However, Trayvon was in that youthful ‘zone’ where aggression and violence on his part, may well have occurred. Indeed, it is a critical issue in this case and what Zimmerman’s self-defense argument is about.
If Zimmerman will, most certainly, be able to raise these issues at trial, despite Trayvon’s (and ‘DeeDee’s) minor status, such arguments should be permitted in the “public” trial of Zimmerman, including in this column.
Relevance is, at best, a secondary concern for why I am unwilling to host a public discussion of the personal lives of teenagers who happen to have a connection to Trayvon.
If people want to e-stalk a bunch of teenagers and cast judgments on the internet regarding the relative worth of their lives, or speculate on the likelihood that they will turn into violent criminals, they are free to do so elsewhere. But I don’t want to contribute to that — so I’m not going to.
It is not just Trayvon in that video. His friends and classmates are equally shown there. There is no possible argument that could justify why they deserve to be the subject of national media scrutiny, and have their every move evaluated by a prying public looking for some scrap of evidence of dubious significance regarding Trayvon’s character.
As a side note– I’ve read the Trayvon twitter feed, and the fact that Zimmerman’s supporters think it’s somehow “proof” that Trayvon was a wannabe killer is mind boggling. But if Trayvon’s twitter feed didn’t expose his friend’s identities and invite commentary about whether or not they are “gangbangers,” I’d have no problem in opening it for discussion here. Unfortunately, there is no way of doing that, as comments on this blog have made painfully clear.
Susan,
Two quick replies:
1. YouTube videos are already in public domain. My guess is there are millions of videos with minors in them in the public domain. Trayvon released that video into the public domain for the exact purpose of showing to the world what his activities were and his projected public persona. If those activities involve personal violence, so be it. It is relevant evidence of character and pertinent to the issues of self-defense and will be evidence at trial.
2. The same is true of the ‘handles’ of Trayvon’s friends, all of who publicly posted their messages, with handles, for the world to see.
The issue of Trayvon’s friends, as witnesses, is already a central part of the case, e.g., ‘DeeDee’. The prosecution will use friends and family of Trayvon, at trial, to present a picture of an innocent angelic potential astronaut and top student (the message of the press) who was shot without cause; Zimmerman will present a picture impeaching that image and will, likely, use Trayvon’s reputation and his statements to friends (and the public at large through his public postings) to show he was capable and had a predilection to violence … important to Zimmerman’s defense.
All of this is fair game at a trial … for a fair trail. So any web based (trial) — which this column implicitly is — should allow all evidence, even if you disagree as to its significance.
My guess is that if a poll was taken, whether among attorneys or even the public, the issues of Trayvon’s character would be considered relevant (whether angelic victim or potentially violent aggressor). And those issues will be a major part of the trial, including videos showing classmates and their actual testimony.
Susan,
If a post to a public twitter feed is quoted by a commenter as ‘proof’ Trayvon was a ‘gangbanger,’ I think the quote itself will stand on its own.
Intelligent readers of this blog are capable of judging for themselves the relative importance of any public twitter post. And commentators to this blog are capable of pointing out its significance … or lack thereof.
The problem I have is if the open debate is pre-decided via ‘moderation.’
I forgot to add that one of the Trayvon twitters referred to Trayvon attacking a bus driver before his death.
As an attorney involved in litigation, I am sure you recognize the potential evidentiary value of that line inquiry not only for Zimmerman’s self-defense claim but for readers understanding both sides to this painful case.
Topics like attacking a bus driver don’t come randomly ‘out of the blue’ to angelic scholarship students — or hardly any students for that matter.
I can guarantee that a twitter feed of a teenager who was shot to death, by a man he didn’t know and never tweeted about, is of close to zero evidentiary value. That is not admissible character evidence. Also it is hearsay.
Look, if you want to scrutinize the facebook or twitter profiles of a bunch of high school students, that’s fine, I’m not going to stop you. But you can’t do it here, sorry. I am not okay with encouraging, no matter how indirectly, the harassment or stalking of a bunch of innocent kids.
I have tried to be transparent in what I am moderating and why I am doing so. I don’t want to stifle the conversation. But if Zimmerman’s best and most interesting defense is what was on his victim’s twitter feed… well, damn, the state may have an even stronger case than I though.
To everyone who has been commenting here — thanks for your input to the discussion. There’s been a nice little collection of useful information on the Zimmerman case gathered here, and also some good discussion on what can be interpreted from the available evidence.
I’m going to have to bow out of the conversation now though, for a week or two, but I’ll join in again once I’m back. I’m getting married this weekend, and dealing with all that stuff and nonsense has basically eliminated any free time I have to watch over the blog.
I’m going to leave the comments open while I’m gone, in the hopes that any new commenters that come along will maintain the civility. Please play nice, everyone! But if any trolls do decide to pup up again, and things start to really get out of hand, I’d appreciate it if anyone could email myself or my co-blogger Mike to give us the heads up. Hopefully one of us will be able to take care of it before too long.
Congratulations on getting married!! Thanks for all your hard work on this blog. Hope you have a GREAT weekend 🙂
You’re going to squander your time, energy, and attention on wedded bliss when there’s important blogging to be done?
Unpossible!
I feel seduced and abandoned.
But seriously, congratulations to your S.O. on their extreme good fortune, and the best to you both.
unitron
P.S. You’re saving some cake for everyone here, right? : – )
First of all, best wishes on your upcoming marriage. It introduces a welcome touch or reality into the hypothetical world blogs exist in.
When you return, you might want to consider a spin-off on the evidentiary issues in the Zimmerman case (particularly the role of social media), since it will be critical issue at trial.
I note that there is substantial disagreement as to the evidentiary value of Trayvon’s social postings among posters. That issue issue has two parts: 1) are social media postings admissible (there are the separate issues concerning Trayvon’s postings and those of others), and 2) assuming postings are admissible, are they of realistic value at trial.
The following quote appeared in the Miami Herald on these issues:
“Some experts say the 17-year-old’s perceived online character could become a factor in the case of his death.
“Basically what it boils down to is… whether or not [Zimmerman’s] conduct is reasonable,’’ University of Florida criminal law professor Kenneth Nunn told the Miami Herald.
“In order to determine that, you’d want to look at what [Trayvon’s] behavior traits have been, or may have been over time. When I’m trying a case and I’m concerned about a person’s character, I’m looking at anything.” ”
Regarding hearsay and issue 1), admissibility: There are hearsay exceptions that may likely apply; for example, the Declaration against interest and Recorded recollection hearsay exception. Note: there is the separate issue of who did the posting. The posts of other posters (not Trayvon), while they may be inadmissible as is, can provide leads to witnesses for the prosecution and defense.
I believe the issue of ‘minors,’ as potential witnesses, is way overblown. Detention centers are filled with minors and they are frequently witnesses to crimes and testify. The reality of criminal prosecutions is that minors having relevant information on Trayvon character or state of mind will certainly be interviewed. And they will play a role at trial. DeeDee is a prime example (although I doubt she will testify because of various issues with her statements that have been previously addressed in this blog).
What’s a minor these days, especially in Florida? What’s the difference between them and “adults’ in a trial? Just look at the violent crime here in Florida committed by minors and, sorry to say, blacks in the Tampa Bay areas and I mention that primarily as a result of reading the most liberal newspaper in the state.. The Tampa Bay Times.
Good analysis but I would have preferred a more neutral look at things rather than a slight slant towards GZ as the aggressor. Certainly at this point the necessary facts are not available to conclusively prove who initiated the confrontation here.
After reviewing some of the witness accounts and 911 calls I’m starting to get the impression that it was in fact GZ screaming on those tapes. The witness accounts vary, and can be a bit shaky but it seems like “John” and the kid walking his dog had a decent, unobstructed view of the events. Other accounts may have had a good view but their versions seem a tad vague. “John” was apparently close enough to inform them of his intent to call 911 and to “stop it”, he more than anyone else, seemed certain TM was on top, beating GZ. The younger kid also initially seemed to be agreeing with this, but then later his mother seemed to intervene and admitted it “was too dark” and felt pressured by police.
The abrasions to the back of GZ’s head seemed pretty indicative of a guy on his back as well. So with some certainty, we can conclude GZ was on the bottom of the scuffle.
That brings us to the audible screaming on the 911 calls, I find it unlikely in such a short exchange that they “rolled” around at all, so once the fight ended up on the ground, it probably stayed that way for the duration. So with TM likely on top of ZM, why would TM be screaming? He would have the upperhand of course, no need for that.
GZ would have had numerous reasons to scream at that point, he’s getting pummeled, bleeding from his nose, sustained a few lacerations to the back of the head, and the kid is probably not letting up. Eventually the focus of the fight has to shift to the gun, either TM has to see it, feel it, or see GZ going for something.
TM was pretty unscathed as far as the funeral directed pointed out so I just don’t see it likely GZ was on top making him scream like that by NOT punching him. Surely if Zimmerman was on top be would have at least landed one blow that would have left some indication TM was at least hit once.
Inevitably, there had to be a struggle for the weapon for it to turn out this way.
If these circumstances are remotely close to what happened…was GZ justified in going for the gun? If TM was indeed on top, was he justified going for the gun?
Most importantly, it still brings us back to asking WHO started this physical altercation to begin with.
The screams for help immediately at the moment of the gunshot. George Zimmerman jumped on Trayvon Martin’s back after he shot him because he wasn’t sure if Trayvon Martin was dead. Why would George Zimmerman stop screaming for help if he believed he was still in danger?
Also, the lacerations were at the top of Zimmerman’s head, not the back of his head. The lacerations don’t seem to fit the story.
The calls for help are not continuous, and are becoming less frequent before the shooting.
Were the lacerations from a drain or the sidewalk?
The cries for help became more urgent, not less. The distance in the frequency can and will be explained by the prosecutors evidence of the distance, the gun powder evidence, the lack of dna and the trajectory of the bullet wound. The child was trying to get away.
Again, the cries for help stopped immediately at the point gunshot although Zimmerman says he did not know he was out of danger yet and jumped on Trayvon Martin’s back, Since he was supposedly still in fear, shouldn’t the witnesses have continued to hear screams for help and shouldn’t we hear him screaming for help on the recorded 9-1-1 calls?
I believe the head wounds were either from Zimmerman being on the ground after he started the altercation by rolling around during a scuffle he initiated by possibly rolling his head over the plastic utility cover or from scratching his own head deliberately or even dinging himself with his own flashlight. It has been speculated that the wounds Zimmerman supposedly sustained are from previous head-shaving injuries that were reopened.
Zimmerman’s head injury pics (which are speculated to have been fakes) do not prove who initiated the fight. They can’t. Zimmerman’s first crime against Trayvon Martin occurs long before he confronted the child.
While I don’t agree with EVERYTHING you say you do bring up a great point (Again) which none of the “Zimmerman was right” crowd has even attempted to explain.
The “HELLLPP ME, HELLP MEEE, HELL **BANG**”
Not even a completed sentence…a complete full stop at the point of the gunshot…
If there was no one around after the police arrived, how was it possible for Zimmerman’s supposed headshot picture showing blood running off to the side of his head? Given that the headshot pic almost PROVES witnesses were around — probably discussing their recounts of the tragedy and what they’d witnessed, why did O’Mara persist on his story that Zimmerman’s account is completely devoid of information he obtained by overhearing witnesses and witness statements?
For the nearly two months after Zimmerman murdered Trayvon, Zimmerman hadn’t been arrested. Was anyone monitoring what Zimmerman picked up on the tv news, the Internet “news” or witness interviews while he was free?
Is O’Mara seriously trying to present a case based on the SPD’s mindset which is most people in Sanford don’t know what’s up via Twitter, FaceBook, Google News, cable “news” or other sources of information? Give me a break! Zimmerman was watching and probably “following” any and every source of hate-radio, hate-bloggers and hate-twitter feeds. Why else would he create his very own website depicting grafitti on a cultural center as his graphics unless his mentality is of the same warped, racists, bigoted mindset of those whom he begged for money from and could count on who respond to dog-whistles? They are statistically undereducated, hateful bigots (who are probably posing as cover for the Koch Brothers/ALEC) that have never supported transparency in donations of any kind?
Zimmerman actively sought guidance from Murdoch’s “news” flunky, Sean Hannity. Hannity admitted having a conversation with him and widely publicized the call to boost his ratings. The public needs to know who the donors to Zimmerman are. I don’t think pro-Zimmerman donors are exempted from public disclosure under any U.S. or state law.
@CommonSenseForChange — Not biased at all are we? Sounds like you feel that we should try ALL cases in the media, without all of the evidence :). And uh, calling people who do not agree with your thoughts “warped, racists, bigoted” or “flunky” does little to further your point of view — just saying.
Zimmerman was taken into custody and transported to the Sanford Police Department where he was questioned for several hours without a lawyer present.
The next day, he did a walk through with the police at the neighborhood which was videotaped. That day he went through another interview with the police for several hours. All these were videotaped. The prosecution will not be permitted to edit those for presentation to the jury.
Zimmerman’s maternal grandmother (from Peru) had a black father, and lived with the Zimmerman’s from before his birth. She babysat two black children who would eat with the Zimmerman’s and would walk with them to school. Zimmerman’s mother testified that he mentored two black youths in Sanford, roughly every two weeks. When a homeless black man in Sanford was slammed into a telephone poll by the son of a police lieutenant, Zimmerman campaigned for his arrest. His partner in his insurance business was black.
The graffiti said “Free Zimmerman” was painted on a wall. It was not apparent what the wall was. Zimmerman (or his webmaster) removed the picture after it was determined what building was housed inside the wall.
The pictures of Zimmerman with a swastika tattoo on his forehead were photo-shopped.
You said:
The public needs to know who the donors to Zimmerman are.
Holy crap. What is wrong with you? Why does the public NEED to know?
@BBRAB –
Not biased? Sorry. I’m biased for seeing justice. I’m biased for ending the presentation of biased “news” based on the rights of big businesses’ interests from the perspective of big businesses’ news representatives (Koch, Murdoch, etc.) which does nothing to further citizens’ understanding of what’s really going on.
When someone stalks a person they have “profiled” as a criminal for no apparent reason, you have got to ask yourself how did it come to be. How is the bad judgment to be stopped?
As someone who has recently sat on a first degree felony jury (7 days), I can tell you that the information you have about the case is FAR from being the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. In reality, most of the media has skewed this story to the side of Martin in general from the beginning. Actually, the media (both right and left) don’t even KNOW the truth, and have a huge interest in selling their papers, ads, etc. With that in mind, what makes you think you have enough evidence to declare that someone was “stalked” and “profiled?” Many of us posting here have listened and discussed and read all that we can find about this case, and I think it is safe to say that most of us still are not sure how this case will turn out. This is due to several things, including but not limited to 1) Not knowing/having all of the evidence, 2) Not understanding ALL of the intricacies laws involved (the rules of evidence, the self-defense law, etc. For example, not everything you have read/heard will be allowed as evidence in a court of law).
I don’t have a personal desire in this case, other than for true justice to be done (whatever that turns out to be). However, purely from the perspective of an outside observer, I have said before — Knowing everything that we know at this point, Zimmerman’s story seems plausible and reasonable. That’s not to say it is what happened, just that it could have happened that way. Unless something comes out at trial that changes that, I do not see how the prosecution will overcome reasonable doubt. Just one honest outsider’s view.
@Tristan – on May 9, 2012 at 5:19 pm said:
“While I don’t agree with EVERYTHING you say you do bring up a great point (Again) which none of the “Zimmerman was right” crowd has even attempted to explain.
The “HELLLPP ME, HELLP MEEE, HELL **BANG**”
Not even a completed sentence…a complete full stop at the point of the gunshot…
What don’t you agree with? I have heard your theories on the web as well. I think both public and the prosecution can prove the cries for help were not cries for help by Zimmmerman and by default were cries for help by Trayvon Martin.
What’s your point of disagreement? I’d like to research it, so please tell.
CSFC:
At the bond hearing, Gilbreath stated the FBI analysis of the 911 tapes was ‘inconclusive’ … meaning they could not determine if it was or was not Zimmerman yelling for help. If they had ruled out the voice being Zimmerman’s, then you can be sure Gilbreath would have said so and cited that elimination as indicating the voice was Trayvon’s.
Also, initially, both of Trayvon’s parents said they could not identify Trayvon’s voice (Trayvon’s mother later changed her statement and said the voice was Trayvon’s; and Tracy originally ruled out that the voice was Trayvon’s and I don’t know if he later changed that view).
It doesn’t help your cause to misstate facts, particularly when the transcript of the bond hearing is available for fact checking.
At 39 seconds there is a really loud screaming help. If there is a “ME” it is not readily audible. There is another Help much softer. And then a Help, and possibly a ME just before the shot.
One of the other 911 phone calls probably has some of the screaming and the gunshot on it, but it was during the period when they were giving their name or address.
BTW, all of the 911 calls identify the voice as a male. None said anything about a child.
And even those who have offered their opinion afterwards might not be able to tell. One of the 911 callers has a very high-pitched young sounding voice. The 911 operator actually asked her age, and she replied 30. And yet she has said on TV that it was the younger person.
I have been quickly reviewing the time line at the top of the page and have come across what I believe are some errors in facts, some unsupported conclusions and some unmentioned inconsistencies that I would like to point out. Because of time constraints, I will try to do this is several different posts. To start:
Here is the link to Trayvon’s purported phone records. I only say ‘purported’ because this was a family line and it still hasn’t been confirmed all the calls were Trayvon’s. Let’s assume they are:
Click to access call+log.pdf
The time line keeps claiming the 18 minute call starting at 6:54 was from Trayvon to DeeDee. But that is not correct. That call and the 7:12 call are both incoming calls. We have not seen DeeDee’s phone records to confirm she was the caller.
I will assume DeeDee is in North Dade, FL which means outgoing calls dialed (assuming they are Trayvon’s) show only a 1 minute call to North Date at 6:54. This raises the possibility that this was first call with DeeDee (made by Trayvon) and someone else was on the 18 minute incoming call.
There may be a rational explanation for the above, but so far, it hasn’t been definitely been shown Dee was the other party both of those calls. However, that alone, assuming a reasonable explanation for the above, isn’t the major problem with two incoming calls:
The huge problem for DeeDee’s credibility is the time gap between those two calls when compared to DeeDee’s first ABC interview where she describes a continual conversation with Trayvon in which: he says he is being followed yet again, she says ‘run’, he immediately starts running hard enough that he becomes breathless from the purported pursuit by Zimmerman and he is then immediately ‘cornered’ and confronted by [a presumably much faster and fitter] Zimmerman who ran him down. And she is purportedly on the phone that whole time with Trayvon and hearing live these events that she is relating ABC. The gap between the 2 calls would have been too long and interrupting for her continuing version of the flow of events to have been actually heard by her.
No matter how accurate the T-Mobile times are, the problem is that there is an inescapable time gap when she is off the phone during the critical period just before during and after he starts running.
That is just one piece of evidence that she is lying about her “terminator” type ongoing chase of Trayvon by Zimmerman. Here, again is the original ABC interview tape, that was quickly replaced when, I believe, someone realized her version a continuing ‘chase’ sequence was impossible to square with the dispatcher tape and the several minute interval between Trayvon running and the later fight.
The original DeeDee/ABC interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nfh1vHxD6JU
If Benjamin Crump can be believed, Martin and “DeeDee” were on the phone for 6-1/2 hours that day. If you go back through the bill, you can trace an almost continuous sequence of calls beginning from 2:30. Almost all of them are outbound calls to “North Dade”
Martin is from Miami Gardens, which is just south of the Broward County Line. He originally went to Carol City High School (apparently his neighborhood school). Carol City is a formerly unincorporated area that is now part of Miami Gardens. So a call to North Dade could be to practically anyone that Martin knew at home.
The phone numbers have been whited-out, probably electronically. If you look closely, there are some instances where there is a tiny piece of the left edge of the text to the right that was clipped; and others where a tiny part of the rightmost digit of the phone number is visible.
What the NBC station has is a photocopy of what is likely a printout of an online version of the bills. This is obvious from the first two pages which are highly skewed, but the other pages are not perfectly verticle if we went from screen image to PDF directly.
Hopefully, investigators have the actual phone call times. It would really be hard to record times in units other than seconds (and maybe fractions of seconds). The format we use for dates and times is really complicated. It is easier to record a time as seconds since some epoch, and then when needed for human purposes to convert. Similarly, the rounding of times to minutes is simply for marketing purposes and perhaps to satisfy some regulator.
Just before the 6:54 sequence of calls, there appears to be Martin talking on an outgoing call; an incoming call is received, and the outgoing call is terminated. As soon as the short incoming call is finished, there is another outgoing call. This would appear to be like Martin received a second call, told DeeDee or whomever that he’d call back; handle the first call and then call back.
The 1-minute 6:53 and 6:54 calls would appear to be call backs. Maybe he was telling DeeDee to call him. The 6:54-7:12 and 7:12-7:16 were the first lengthy incoming calls since much earlier.
Crump in one CNN interview claims that DeeDee said that the 6:54 call was when Martin took cover from the rain in the apartments to the west. It seems implausible that DeeDee could understand the distinction over the phone, so this may be Crump trying to construct a plausible time line (Martin wandering around the townhouses for 15 minutes trying to find cover (eg running up to front entries back patios, which are covered, could be perceived as suspicious.
Problems with the timeline Part 2:
I see a problem with the statement:
“7:09:34 pm: Zimmerman, in his truck, spots Trayvon.”
That was time of Zimmerman’s dispatcher call. That call transcript does not prove in any manner that was when Zimmerman first spotted Trayvon. And, in reality, the conversation implies Zimmerman had observed the suspect for at least enough time to become suspicious and only then called the dispatcher to check the situation out … exactly what a conscientious block watcher would do.
Jimrtex, above, provides more information that apparently contradicts the timeline version and there is no cited source to explain where the timeline information came from. Simply saying ‘reports’ is a real problem since they are so contradictory, which is why I posted DeeDee’s actual story in her own voice from the ABC interview.
Why the above time line quote is so slanted against Zimmerman becomes clear to anyone knowing Zimmerman claims the suspect was acting suspiciously before calling the police, while Martin supporters claim he was profiled just because he was black and he was not acting suspiciously.
The statement, as worded is not only incorrect but it ‘proves’ Zimmerman is a liar when he claims he observed a suspect acting suspiciously since here is a detailed ‘timeline’ that proves that he called the police as soon as he first saw a black child. It should be corrected.
You said:
which is why I posted DeeDee’s actual story in her own voice from the ABC interview
I have never heard this.. Do you have a link to where we actually hear her speak and says what happened:?
WayneM,
Click on the video in my post above. That is the original ABC interview.
So how long after this happened before she called to report it? I would think she would do that at once but I cannot find anything about that.
According to Det Gilbreath she was not interviewed by police until 5 weeks after the shooting.
Benjamin Crump claims that Tracy Martin was reviewing his phone bill on March 18 and discovered the calls. Either Martin or a lawyer called the number and then a lawyer interviewed “DeeDee” and supposedly got an affidavit which they supposedly gave to the USDOJ.
So 3 weeks before she was contacted. During Investigator Gilbreath’s testified that the other investigator had talked to a female witness who was on the phone 5 weeks after the shooting. He appeared to be mentally calculating, but it had to before files were charged, and also before a decision was made not to present the case to the grand jury – perhaps because they could ask a lot of questions and not be perceived by an actual jury as being hostile.
It’s not clear how many interviews were given to ABC. The lawyers asked all the questions (ABC itself refers to her as being prodded by the lawyers), and there is lots of the story that are filled in by the reporters. “DeeDee” herself uses a narrative style, “Then X come and say …”
Hard to believe the probable cause affidavit includes a reference to this. I have heard Crump orchestrate at least 3 different attempts to get this girl to say what happened and she still cannot tell a version that makes sense and her inability to speak English does not help either. How can she be 16 and talk like this?
I previously went though the two ABC interviews (the second was substituted for the first on the ABC website:
search on this page for:
StanS on April 29, 2012 at 9:10 pm said:
StanS on April 27, 2012 at 8:32 pm said:
StanS on April 28, 2012 at 2:26 pm said:
Thank you
Susan,
Of course I never said that TM was a “wannabe killer.” I just pointed out that the kid appeared to be in something of a downward spiral, so it wouldn’t have surprised anyone if he took a swing at a person who he felt “disrespected” him.
I don’t know what disciplinary problems you had in school, but if you were becoming involved in a violent subculture as TM was I don’t imagine it would have been a shock to your parents if you took a swing at someone.
-MM
For those interested in the legal aspects, I started a discussion over on the “Why Dershowitz is Wrong …” thread explaining why I think the case may be soon thrown out because it violates Florida 776.032 which obligates the state to argue that the case was not one of self defense when charging the defendant. Susan doesn’t seem to be aware of 776.032 and has been under the wrong impression that self defense is something the defense must raise. But in Florida, the law is different. Judge Herr’s signing the charging affidavit, without inquiring into this matter, seems to be an act of extreme irresponsibility.
I am curious about this too. I still don’t understand why no one has challenged the affidavit.
The defense is supposed to be getting the evidence from the prosecution this Monday, May 14. If, as expected, there is next to nothing to counter Zimmerman’s self defense claim, then O’Mara may file a motion to dismiss in short order. However there may be some agreement between the parties that in the interest of public peace and tranquility, the charges be allowed to remain for a while.
You said
“However there may be some agreement between the parties that in the
interest of public peace and tranquility, the charges be allowed to remain for a while.”
That is truly outrageous if such a decision were to be made. That is NOT in the law. Of course, the affidavit itself is also an outrage. We are in a mess if we have allowed politics to take precedent over our laws.
I still don’t see how this benefits Scott. It seems like political suicide to me but maybe I am missing some pieces to the puzzle. I have quite a few friends who are attorneys including a son in law. They think there is a chance that this could become a case similar to the Duke lacrosse scandal and could result in public charges of prosecutorial misconduct – Notice I said PUBLIC charges because they will never get Corey.
Problems with the timeline Part 3:
There is a glaring and significant omission from the rendition of the dispatcher’s tape in the ‘timeline’. The timeline quotes part of the dispatcher tape:
“7:11:14 pm: At this point, Trayvon appears to have walked past Zimmerman truck, possibly heading towards the cut through, where he would shortly be out of sight of Zimmerman.
Zimmerman: “These assholes. They always get away. … When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse.”
However, IMMEDIATELY BEFORE THAT ZIMMERMAN QUOTE, the dispatcher TWICE advised Zimmerman to keep reporting the actions of the suspect. He twice says:
Dispatcher: “just let me know if this guy does anything else”
The omitted dispatcher request to Zimmerman is important to Zimmerman’s defense since it explains why, a few seconds later, Zimmerman exits his truck (after the suspect ran and had disappeared down the back path), which was to keep the suspect in sight. Zimmerman’s action was consistent with the dispatcher’s earlier request to keep reporting. Only when the dispatcher hears Zimmerman trying to keep the suspect in sight does he then advise Zimmerman not go after a fleeing suspect — to protect Zimmerman not the suspect. And, at that time, Zimmerman immediately stops.
There is no excuse for leaving out what the dispatcher clearly repeated TWICE on the tape but then including Zimmerman cursing — implying Zimmerman was following the suspect out of rage.
Here is a link to the entire dispatcher tape, the omitted advice, twice repeated, is at 1:26 – 1:32 minutes on the tape:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAfrCkJIqx0
In the first part of the call we’ve got Zimmerman basically saying that Martin is walking suspiciously (not a crime in and of itself), and then that he’s walking very suspiciously (still not illegal).
“Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok”
“Dispatcher: Yeah we’ve got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.”
Not seeing anything about “go chasing after this guy”.
At that point Martin hasn’t done anything else except maybe walk very suspiciously some more (but still hasn’t actually broken a law), but still we get
“Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away”
followed by a really pitiful attempt to give directions (how hard is “come in the main entrance on Twin Trees, turn left when it does, and my vehicle is right there where it turns right”?)
and then Martin, possibly because he’s getting really creeped out by this skinhead staring at him, increases his rate of travel (and yet he still hasn’t managed to break any laws)
“Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?”
Still nothing about “We need you to follow and give us GPS co-ordinates for his every step”.
Zimmerman could have replied with the information available by turning his head or looking in his rear view mirrors as to which way Martin ran (“he ran east to X and then turned south and disappeared from sight behind the houses”), and that would have answered the question without any need to get out of his vehicle.
You will note that Zimmerman did not say “Those assholes, of whom the young man about whom I am calling may or may not be among, always get away.”, and I suspect that he gave little, if any, consideration to the possibility that he had misjudged him.
unitron
Will you get a reply about this?
There is no excuse for leaving out what the dispatcher clearly repeated TWICE on the tape but then including Zimmerman cursing —
unitron,
You entirely miss the point.
The timeline rendition deliberately EXCLUDES a key part of what the dispatcher says. It is deliberately misleading by leaving out advise (TWICE SAID) by the dispatcher that could very easily be interpreted as a reason for leaving the truck to SEE where the suspect went in order to keep reporting.
Otherwise, your interpretation of what the entire conversation means is just that, your interpretation. It has nothing to do with omitting a key statement that could explain why Zimmerman got out of the truck … which is perfectly legal to do.
Indeed, it is perfectly legal for Zimmerman to ‘follow’ a suspect and even ask him what he was doing in the private complex. Note: I am not saying that is what happened.
I will also note that you use the word “suspicious” … which, of course is the key word at that stage because that is exactly what Zimmerman believed and was the reason stated on the tape for calling the police — to have them (not himself, obviously) see if there was a problem. He was not accusing the suspect of committing a criminal act (as you incorrectly imply). He was only saying that the suspect was acting suspiciously … which is what ‘profiling’ is all about.
“It is deliberately misleading by leaving out advise …’
It wasn’t advice, it was a request for information–let us know if he does anything else–and when Zimmerman reported that Martin had gone from walking to running he fulfilled that request.
I don’t really think Susan omitted that part in a deliberate attempt to mislead, but when she returns from her honeymoon she can speak for herself.
Since the police didn’t order or force Zimmerman to get out and follow on foot, I don’t see the ommisson as misleading, although perhaps in hindsight she should have incorporated the transcript of the entire call into the timeline.
I notice she also left out the f***ing “coons” (or whatever that word was) part of the transcript.
If he could have been clearly heard to say that, that would be not exactly in his favor, but I doubt that he did for 2 reasons.
1. I don’t think he’s prejudiced against all blacks just because they’re black.
2. Nobody says “coon” anymore unless it involves taking the hound dogs and going hunting for the smallish mammals that have darker fur that makes them look like they’re wearing a mask, and try to get into your garbage cans.
(I’ve heard an “enhanced” version that sounds like “punks”, but listening to the unenhanced version it sounds more like “coats” than anything else.
“Let us know if he does anything else” and “Which way is he running?” are requests for information.
The only part that might qualify as advice is when Zimmerman is told that they don’t need him out following Martin on foot.
“He was not accusing the suspect of committing a criminal act …”
So these assholes always get away on the legal techicality of not having actually broken any laws?
unitron
Unitron,
Walking around. Looking at the houses, perhaps as is finding one to break into.
And then edging around Zimmermans truck, as if we was just walking along after he noticed that he was being observed.
He is now behind Zimmerman, and walking on the sidewalk area. There are streetlights on both corners of Twin Trees. Zimmerman might not see him with his side mirrors, unless he was adjusting them. If Martin had headlights he could see him. It is raining. Martin suddenly begins to run.
The dispatcher urgently requests to know which way. The truck door opens and as he gets out and says the “other entrance”. The dispatcher asks which way and as Zimmerman explains the back entrance, he only then begins moving.
That is only the second item that the dispatcher thought important enough to add to the event report, after the initial description – which were all responses to questions asked by the dispatcher – other than his sex. Zimmerman referred to him as a guy without prompting by the dispatcher.
His race, clothing, and age were all in response to direct questions by the dispatcher.
Zimmerman did say “When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left”
But you can easily see the clubhouse from the intersection and it would be easy to think it means make a left on Retreat View Circle.
Zimmerman then says, “Actually you would go past the clubhouse”
The dispatcher misinterprets this to mean “It’s on the left hand side from the clubhouse”
Zimmerman then says, “You go straight in, don’t turn, and make a left”
Unitron:
Let’s look at what the dispatcher considered important.
COMPL CONCERNED REF RECENT S21S (S21 must either be break-ins of burglary)..
WALKING AROUND AREA what Zimmerman reported, and dispatcher paraphrased.
BM (black male) Zimmerman volunteered “guy” so may actually be guilty of sex profiling. The dispatcher asked for the race, and Zimmerman was slightly uncertain, probably because he was wearing a hood. It was only later when he was closer probably within 20 or 30 feet or so that he was certain.
LSW (last seen wearing) DARK GRAY HOODIE JEANS OR SWEATPANTS The dispatcher asked whether Zimmerman had noticed what Martin was wearing. Zimmernan had him in view. The dispatcher omitted the shoes.
1017 AREA FOR (this must mean be search area for). This is why the dispatcher initially escalated the call, and likely occurred in response to the increased stress in Zimmerman’s voice (it was 1:38 into the call)
DIS first officer dispatched at 1:43 into the call.
SUBJ NOW RUNNING TOWARD BACK ENTRANCE OF COMPLEX Zimmerman volunteered “He’s running” – that is certainly covered in the dispatchers request for additional information. The dispatcher urgently requested to know which way Martin was running. It was immediately after that Zimmerman got of his truck, most likely to see better. The clarification that “other entrance” meant “back entrance” was in response to the dispatcher’s question, and was made before Zimmerman started moving away from the truck.
The dispatchers requests certainly would provide encouragement for Zimmerman to exit his truck. And after realizing that he did not know whether Martin was actually heading toward the back entrance, he began to proceed in the direction (Martin had perhaps a 50 foot lead, plus a 10 second head start),
unitron,
Seems like you keep missing the point.
Balanced information was deliberately left out. It was repeated TWICE and was immediately before the “cursing” quote used so it had to have been heard … and then left out after its implications for Zimmerman’s defense became obvious.
What is most interesting about the call is the call itself and the fact that THE POLICE RESPONDED TO WHAT THEY HEARD.
The call is accurate in the essential elements of reasons FOR THE POLICE TO SEND OUT A PATROL CAR. You seem to miss that critical point … that the police themselves, upon hearing from a citizen that a person was acting suspiciously in an living complex plagued by crime (over 400 police incidents, including a shooting, in the past year) made the decision, THEMSELVES, to send out a patrol car.
The police, given a “profile” provided by Zimmerman (and prompted from him by the dispatcher), agreed with Zimmerman that having a police officer check the situation out was not only legal, but advised … and sent out a patrol car.
So to now blame Zimmerman for his ‘profiling’ is ludicrous. It if was ‘illegal’ or uncalled for, the police would never have sent out a patrol car. I also note that no one complained about the ‘profiling’ of Trayvon when he was caught with burglary tools (a screwdriver — who brings that to school … a weapon perhaps?), drugs and numerous pieces of (stolen?) women’s jewelry.
““Let us know if he does anything else” and “Which way is he running?” are requests for information.
The only part that might qualify as advice is when Zimmerman is told that they don’t need him out following Martin on foot. ”
*** “Let us know if he does anything else” can also be considered advice. The real problem is that the entire “advice vs. request” issue is really a red herring.
Getting out of a truck to see where a suspect had run to is perfectly natural, particularly given that advice/request. It natural without anything being said.
The ‘hoodie’ issue has always been a disingenuous ploy having little to do with the issue of self-defense in the Zimmerman case.
It should be clear by now that neither the Federal Government nor Florida State considers this a racial ‘hate-crime’.
The latest ‘hoodie’ crime was just a day or so ago … but there has been no national publicity about ‘hoodies’. The shooter was described as a ‘young black man’ wearing a ‘hooded jacket’ … we don’t know if the hood was ‘up’ to conceal the shooter’s face. CBS, in their report, never even included that the shooter was wearing a ‘hoodie’ … no surprise there.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/05/police-seek-killer-of-black-sabbath-motorcycle-club-leader.html
I neglected to add the CBS link to the above ‘hoodie’ killing story:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57433594-504083/wild-dogg-clyde-thompson-jr-killed-police-searching-for-shooter-of-calif-biker-club-leader/
Here is one interesting comment to the above story (how the mighty have fallen!):
“by enlightenu May 14, 2012 2:47 PM EDT
I don’t understand, “The shooting took place while members of the group mourned and paid tribute to the man they called “Wild Dogg.” They were mourning him before he was shot? I think that sounds a little suspect to me. Or maybe it’s just another CBS writer who can’t write.”
Discovery was given to O’Mara Yesterday Monday the 14th.
Here is a story about injuries to Martin, besides the gunshot wound, the only other noted injury was to his knuckles.
Here is a much longer story about Zimmerman’s medical records.
http://abcnews.go.com/story?id=16353532#.T7Lyv-iPlAo
“A medical report compiled by the family physician of accused Trayvon Martin murderer George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a “closed fracture” of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.”
Sorry the Martin Link didn’t post.
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/
Below is an the very interesting actual close up aerial photograph of the area of the confrontation.
The photo is very beneficial for Zimmerman. It shows how close and simply laid out the area is, including the direct path to where Martin was staying.
When Martin ran, he would have been ‘home’ within 20-25 seconds.
It is becoming clear — after the recent release of the autopsy and report of damage to Zimmerman — that the stalker was Martin not Zimmerman.
Martin ran when he saw Zimmerman was on the phone in his car, most likely fearing security might have been called. He then hid for over 2 minutes while watching for the police and when he saw Zimmerman was off the phone, he attacked him quickly to prevent Zimmerman from again getting on the phone to call 911.
Martin covered Zimmerman’s mouth while hitting him, to (unsuccessfully) keep him from calling for help. That is Zimmerman’s defense and it must withstand disproving it beyond reasonable doubt.
“Trayvon makes a call from “DeeDee,” ”
Is this supposed to be “makes a call to” or “takes a call from”?
Both purported “DeeDee” calls to Martin were incoming.
I am beginning to think that the fumbling Zimmerman saw Martin doing was Martin hanging up on ‘DeeDee’ in anticipation of confronting Zimmerman as he approached Zimmerman in his truck and began circling.
When Martin began circling the truck, Zimmerman then rolled up his window to avoid confrontation. Martin, seeing Zimmerman was on the phone, thought the police or security could have been called so he ran, hid and waited to see if police/security came.
It is clear that DeeDee lied in both of her ABC ‘interviews’ (see posts above). She (through Crump and the media) “testified” to hearing everything, from start to finish — including when Martin started running (purportedly on her instructions). Yet the second incoming call was right around the time Martin circled Zimmerman’s truck and, after seeing Zimmerman on the phone, started running.
The time gap between the two incoming calls could have been anywhere from 15 seconds to almost 2 minutes and it fits in with Martin hanging up before circling the truck and then picking up the next call after he had hidden himself after the running.
@ Anonymous
The ONLY account of Martin “circling” Zimmerman’s vehicle comes from ZIMMERMAN. . .and in fact, Zimmerman didn’t even mention that to the dispatcher at the time! He just said that Martin was coming “towards him,” and was looking at him. . .which would be absolutely normal since Zimmerman was parked right on the most direct path between the entrance of the Retreat and Martin’s destination. . .and anyone would have looked at lone SUV parked along the road (when parking were available in front of the townhouses), in the DARK, with the “shadow” of a man sitting there behind the wheel!
There seem to be a LOT of “creative” embellishing going on, all based on Zimmerman’s needs, but NONE based on real facts!
@Sadanie
When did the dispatcher dispatch the first officer? When did he actually open the event log?
Sadanie,
Look at the photo picture linked to above and you will see a street lamp right near where Zimmerman was parked (a real ‘fact’).
So Martin could easily see Zimmerman was speaking on the phone (which we know from the tape) when he passed by (circling the long way around the truck — as stated repeatedly by Zimmerman in his MANY statements to the authorities made right after the shooting and as admitted at the Zimmerman hearing by investigator Galbreath).
“Sadanie,
Look at the photo picture linked to above and you will see a street lamp right near where Zimmerman was parked (a real ‘fact’).
So Martin could easily see Zimmerman was speaking on the phone (which we know from the tape) when he passed by (circling the long way around the truck — as stated repeatedly by Zimmerman in his MANY statements to the authorities made right after the shooting and as admitted at the Zimmerman hearing by investigator Galbreath).”
At night, in the rain, light is just as likely to reflect back and prevent you from seeing in. If Zimmerman was using a wireless headset, that would mean Martin wouldn’t have seen a phone in his hand, either, and could have thought “this nut is sitting there talking to himself while staring at me.”
unitron
“Trayvon makes a call from “DeeDee,” ”
Is this supposed to be “makes a call to” or “takes a call from”?
Definition of “hypocrisy” (just posted to USA Today):
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-16/trayvon-zimmerman-medical-report/55022578/1
“The attorney representing Trayvon Martin’s parents said Wednesday a medical report detailing injuries sustained by the man who said he shot Trayvon was leaked to bolster his claims of self-defense.
Lawyer Benjamin Crump said he has not seen the medical report but questions who leaked the information and why.
“It was leaked for a beneficial purpose,” he said, “certainly to help George Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense.””
The State’s case has completely crumbled, as shown by this further statement by Crump:
“Crump said Wednesday the injuries cited in Zimmerman’s medical report do not clear him of shooting Martin.
“You have to look at this in the full context,” he said. “George Zimmerman made the decision to get out of his car, profile Trayvon Martin, pursue Trayvon Martin and confront him.”
He said the report shows that Martin was fighting for his life and the altercation never would have happened if Zimmerman had not pursued the teen.”
That’s it?????
The judge, once Zimmerman’s attorney files his (anticipated) motion to dismiss, should throw this case out.
If Crump “has not seen the [Zimmerman] medical report” then how can Crump also say “the injuries cited in Zimmerman’s medical report do not clear him of shooting Martin.”
Finally here is some evidence for you to make up your own minds, notice his knuckles do not have any marks from hitting Martin as well as the injuries all photographed by the police.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/slideshow/2012/05/17/photos-from-george-zimmerman-investigation-released/#slide=5
Here are 183 pages of written evidence, I will be reading this for a while.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/interactive/2012/05/17/police-documents-in-george-zimmerman-case/
I am looking for a link to the witness interviews from the next day. I want to hear what witnesses had to say before the media onslaught.
Whatever the case with the attorney for the Martin family, it’s true that Zimmerman’s injuries don’t clear him of the charges.
Zimmerman’s injuries provide powerful supporting evidence for Zimmerman’s self-defense claim. It now becomes virtually impossible to disprove that self-defense claim beyond a reasonable doubt.
Totally agree. It is a good thing if Trayvon Martin eventually fought back his predator. We should expect nothing less from our children as they defend themselves against predators.
Clearly you believe that George is in the wrong and that’s fine. We all have different perspectives about this and mine is based upon my personal understanding of our laws here, aided by a few friends who practice law including a very liberal son in law who also practices law. . I want to call your attention to a somewhat similar case with a few notable exceptions but if you check our legal blogs, you will find quite a few others. I try to be objective and unemotional but at 65. I deeply respect our laws even I do not like all of them
http://www.southfloridacriminallawyersblog.com/2012/04/why-trayvon-martins-case-may-not-go-to-a-jury.html
We have not seen a lot of mention lately about the charging document but that is also still subject to legal challenge. This view parallels most of the others I have seen from Florida lawyers.
http://www.southfloridacriminallawyersblog.com/2012/04/probable-cause-affidavit-in-george-zimmerman-case-woefully-inadequate.html
From the police report:
“Investigation reveals that on August 3, August 4, and on October 6, 2011, and February 2, 2012, George Zimmerman reported suspicious persons, all young Black males, in the Retreat neighborhood to the Sanford Police Department. According to records checks, all of Zimmerman’s suspicious persons calls while residing in the Retreat neighborhood have identified Black males as the subjects.”
The primary culprits of crime in the area were young black males.
The State did not accuse Zimmerman of “racial” profiling.
The dispatcher was the one doing the “racial” profiling (if that is the claim) by asking Zimmerman for the color of the suspect’s skin as part of his description, and then sending out a police car after obtaining all the details from Zimmerman, including the suspect’s skin color.
As it turns out, police evidence states that all of George Zimmerman’s calls to report people as suspicious just happened to be black males.
One of his neighbors anonymously reported to SPD that she knows Zimmerman and says she is knowledgeable of how Zimmerman regards Blacks. She says he hates Blacks and she knows of his racism first hand.
From the police report:
“…investigation reveals that Martin was in fact running generally in the direction of where he was staying as a guest in the neighborhood.”
This aerial photo (also posted above) shows it would have taken Martin only about 20-25 seconds to reach where he was staying. The report leaves out what Martin was doing for the other 3 or so minutes which, obviously, was not running there. Most likely, he was stalking Zimmerman and waiting for several minutes until Zimmerman got off the phone, then attacked Zimmerman.
From the police report:
“The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party’s concern. There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter.”
“Based upon the facts and circumstances outlined in this narrative, I believe there exists probable cause for issuance of capias charging George Michael Zimmerman with Manslaughter…”
The State’s contention is schizophrenic.
It simultaneously contends Zimmerman “confronted” Martin (while saying at the hearing the State had no evidence as to who confronted who). Yet, simultaneously the State also says Zimmerman should have actively confronted Martin and if he did so he, Zimmerman, would not have been attacked by Martin so the shooting would never have occurred.
Perhaps the prosecutor was smoking what Martin was smoking that night.
Or perhaps, investigator Sereno was practicing CYA and “pass the buck”?
From the police report:
The decedent…was a 17-year-old resident of Miami Gardens, Florida, and a high school student with no criminal background.
Who was suspended because he was caught at school with a burglary tool (a screwdriver which could also be considered a potentially lethal weapon), drugs and (stolen?) jewelry. Martin also posted ‘fight club’ type videos on YouTube among other indications of a violent propensity
From the police report:
“…stated he did not see the sequence of events which led up to the confrontation between Martin and Zimmerman”.
Was this referring to John?
I’ll answer my own question: It’s probably not “John” where I took the quote from the report. However, someone with a story similar to John’s (seeing the conflict from his patio door and going upstairs to call police, etc.), also stated that he didn’t see the sequence of events leading up to the confrontation.
One interesting observation: there is a fairly consistently reference to Zimmerman as the one calling for help – probably due to Zimmerman’s account and to John’s account. However, the report calls for Zimmerman’s arrest despite this.
A good portion of the report is blacked out.
At the bond hearing Gilbreath stated the State had no evidence as to who confronted who. It is far more relevant to have one or more witnesses that corroborates Zimmerman’s contention he was being beaten up.
I believe we discussed this timing previously StanS.
It seems very possible to me that Trayvon bipassed his patio entrance to avoid letting the “crazy guy” following him (Dee’s words) see where he entered. If so, Trayvon could have run around the south end of the second row, ran north up Retreat View Circle (in an attempt to put distance between himself and Zimmerman without leaving the complex), and then gone south again between the rows when he thought the coast was clear. Zimmerman may have meantime gone back to his truck from either between the rows or up Twin Trees.
(Trayvon may have bipassed his front entrance on Rretreat View Circle because it was locked. He wouldn’t have planned to enter that way on his return, because the patio entrance was closer, for one thing.)
Did you read the police report? If so, you might take note that Trayvon did not have a house key in his possession.
Meanwhile, it would have made perfect sense for a brave community watch guy carrying a big gun to continue to walk the rest of the way south between the rows before turning right at the southern end of the row and then heading back north up Twin Trees to his truck.
Trayvon gets to the north end of the second row of buildings, doesn’t see Zimmerman because Zimmerman is headed north up Twin Trees which puts that first row of buildings in the way. Trayvon thinks he’s “lost” Zimmerman and heads south again between the rows, where he slows down or even stops to talk to DeeDee on the phone. Figures, especially IF he’s been smoking da kine.
Zimmerman may then have rounded the north end of the rows from the Twin Trees side AGAIN and gone south between the rows a second time and confronted Trayvon at the exact spot where the struggle and shooting occurred.
Your own rendition of events may not necessarily be what happened. Same is true with my story of course. Your story fits more with Zimmerman’s story. My story fits more with DeeDee’s story. Although DeeDee’s story is less complete (since she wasn’t there), I think we could say with some certainty that under the circumstances, she probably has less incentive to lie about it, since she didn’t shoot anyone.
Whatever the case, the police believed the circumstances warranted an arrest for manslaughter. I’m glad the police took Zimmerman’s clothes. I was worried maybe they hadn’t. I think it’s too bad they didn’t do a drug or alcohol test on Zimmerman though. At least that’s my impression. Is there any information to the contrary?
The two “renditions” (and there are likely more) are precisely what make it MUCH more difficult for the state. Speculation as to exactly what happened is rampant. Of course we will never know EXACTLY what happened. However, a juror only has to have reasonable doubt regarding the state’s case — i.e., it is possible that it happened the way Zimmerman describes (including the self-defense claim, etc.) and is it reasonable. Given that both renditions seem “possible” and “reasonable” (along with several other variations), I don’t see how this doesn’t end in a not guilty (or at the least, a lesser charge). It seems obvious that the 2nd degree charge was a huge stretch….
Did you read the evidence, where police couldn’t get anything from Martin’s phone, either because its batteries were low or it was wet. Later on T-Mobile told the police they would need the PIN to get into the phone. Tracy Martin told the police that he would have to talk to his lawyers.
Do we know exactly where the cell phone was when it was recovered? Also, I am now confused about where the tea and skittles were. I had thought they were found in Martin’s pockets. Maybe they fell out during the fight?
StanS, I don’t think it’s particularly relevent who is doing the hitting if we don’t know who confronted whom —- unless of course we believe that “self-defense” is OK for Zimmerman, but not OK for Trayvon. The door swings both ways. We can’t justifiably say that shooting/killing is OK in self-defense, but hitting is not.
Would YOU hit someone who is following you in the night for an unknown reason and you happened to notice they had a gun?
Another interesting observation from the police report: “John” (probably) told police that he could see that Zimmerman was the one yelling for help, but he couldn’t see Zimmerman or Trayvon well enough to positively identify either one.
I believe John may have been accurate in seeing the red jacket guy underneath. However, if he couldn’t see Zimmerman well enough to identify him, then it seems possible that he didn’t actually “see” Zimmerman yelling, but just assumed Zimmerman was yelling for help because Zimmerman was on the bottom.
It seems to me that if a person can’t positively identify someone, then they may also not have been able to see that person’t mouth moving.
BBRAB, you may be correct. It’s hard to say though, because we still haven’t seen all the evidence, including what exactly Zimmerman told police. For example, if portions of Zimmerman’s story were clearly disproven, this adds weight to the prosecution.
We also don’t know how the evidence will be put together by both the defense and the prosecution. At this point, the prosecution and defense have had the time to put together their own scenarios for what happened that night, based on evidence that we currently don’t have.
It looks like Martin was really “stoned” the night of the shooting. Here is the 7/11 video. It explains why Zimmerman thought he was acting suspiciously. Watch the end part:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tvwhGVWAdjI
The fact that Martin was stoned that night provides yet another reason why he, at first, ran, then waited for Zimmerman to get off the phone before attacking.
If the police were being called and they found him stoned, after having been suspended for having drugs in his possession, he was in far more trouble. He had to have been aware that he could be arrested for intoxication and the place he was staying at was searched.
Since Martin was stoned, he surely had drugs where he was staying … and, possibly, on his person that night — in which case he would have ditched the drugs before attacking Zimmerman (and could even have done so at his apartment since there is a 3 minute unaccounted period of time that ‘DeeDee’ refuses to discuss).
jimrtex said:
“Did you read the evidence, where police couldn’t get anything from Martin’s phone, either because its batteries were low or it was wet. Later on T-Mobile told the police they would need the PIN to get into the phone. Tracy Martin told the police that he would have to talk to his lawyers.”
It now appears a virtual certainty that Trayvon had drugs at Brandy’s apt since he was clearly stoned at the 7/11. That explains why Tracy waited until the next morning to call the police and why Tracy told police he would have to talk to his lawyers. Tracy was concerned the phone records could provide links to drug dealers or reason for a search of Brandy’s apt. which could easily show traces of drugs even if the apt was ‘purged’. It is most likely that, after the shooting, Tracy or Brandy ‘cleaned’ up the apt in case the police, looking into a drug shooting angle, might search the place.
Trayvon had to have his ‘stash’ somewhere (hidden?) at Brandy’s apt and, likely, Tracy and Brandy knew Trayvon regularly got ‘high’ (a nice role model for Brandy’s son). Remember,, the 7/11 video shows Trayvon was very ‘high’ that night and any observant parent would normally catch that.
Stan, I really do not see how you think this video shows M is stoned or in any way impaired. What was your reasoning to conclude he looked ‘stoned’?
From about 2 minutes into the tape until the end, Martin clearly appears to be intoxicated. He is unsteady on his feet, uses the counter for balance, sways, has trouble getting to his money and counting and the clerk looks wary throughout the video (it would be interesting to see what the clerk said in his statement).
The video shows a picture of someone ‘high’ on something and, in part, physically affected or drunk.
Any police officer would immediately give a sobriety test based on his movements in that video. And they are certainly cause for Zimmerman to claim he was acting suspiciously.
The autopsy shown THC in Martin’s blood (and urine — an interesting development since the question becomes how long that effect takes and how much Tracy and Brandy really knew about Trayvon’s drug habits). Tracy and Brandy had to know something since, at this point, it becomes clear that Trayvon had least some drugs with him while staying at Brany’s apt.
At one point, Martin looks as though he is about to lay down on the counter and is swaying. Compare his movements to that of the clerk who stands up straight and has none of the swaying and uncertain movements that Martin has.
Anyone, including a jury member, that sees this tape would agree with Zimmerman that “this guy looks high on something.”
That “profiling,” by itself — a drunk teenager hanging out by the clubhouse and walking erratically — is good cause to at least have a policeman see what is happening.
Here is a slightly larger version of that video
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/trayvon-martin-eleven-night-shooting-surveillance-footage-george-zimmerman-us-16374129
which makes it easier to do what is important: Keep an eye on the time stamp in the upper left hand corner.
You can see that some seconds go by in a second, but others can take 2, 3, 5, or more seconds to go by.
In other words, you aren’t seeing what it appears that you are seeing because of the non-linear passage of time in the video. (maybe it was the camera that was one toke over the line)
Part of the “swaying” can be explained by digging in tight jeans pockets for exact change, something I’ve experienced myself many times.
Another note of interest is that the time stamp shows that whoever that is making the purchase, they’re doing so about 6 minutes after the firing of the fatal shot at 7:16:56 PM
And one other thing, would you describe that hoodie as dark grey, as Zimmerman did, or as black?
unitron
The swaying and leaning on the counter have nothing to do with the obvious slow motion effect of the 2nd part of the tape. Compare Martin’s movements to that of the clerk (who is noticeably much more stable in his stance and movements). The slow motion effect makes is clear Martin is swaying and leaning against the counter because he is having some trouble keeping his balance, notwithstanding his reaching into his pockets.
To StanS.
So, you believe that Trayvon was so much under the influence of weed or other drugs that he had serious difficulty with his balance and was “reacting slowly.” Yet, you believe that HE attacked Zimmerman and “acted fast enough” to hit Zimmerman on the nose, and overcome the heavier man, to the point of threatening his life within a matter of MINUTES in spite of his “slow motion, and poor balance” that you insist are due to Trayvon being heavily drugged!
Sorry. . .it doesn’t add up!
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/17/2804442/law-officers-set-to-release-evidence.html#moreb
This apparently has the complete version.
Explain what happens at the last 20 seconds of the clip.
“http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/17/2804442/law-officers-set-to-release-evidence.html#moreb
This apparently has the complete version.
Explain what happens at the last 20 seconds of the clip.”
Although not much bigger than a postage stamp, at least the video at that site runs at one second per second, or thereabouts, unlike the other, larger versions I’ve seen so far. Thanks.
At the end of that story it says
“Videos made public as part of the evidence include shots of Trayvon at the convenience store, and footage of the housing development’s clubhouse.”
Has anyone seen this clubhouse video yet, and does anyone have a link?
Wow.
After reading through the comments here, I was really expecting to see something more interesting.
There is absolutely zero indication in that video that Trayvon was under the influence of anything that night, and I am really unclear how other people have drawn such an opposite conclusion. I wouldn’t be shocked at all if somehow it could be shown that Trayvon had recently smoked marijuana before his death, but that video isn’t showing any evidence of it.
“Wow. After reading through the comments here, I was really expecting to see something more interesting. There is absolutely zero indication in that video that Trayvon was under the influence of anything that night, and I am really unclear how other people have drawn such an opposite conclusion.”
You must have accidentally gotten hold of a version of the video that actually runs at one second per second, instead of the ones that drag seconds out two to five times as long.
Did you see the third camera angle that shows a logical explanation for why he seemed to get confused and double back on his way out of the store?
Lots of places left that out as well.
So far I’m attributing to incompetence rather than malice, but just barely.
unitron
Susan, you realize that ABC edited the last 20 seconds of the video from that one angle, didn’t include the audio where the clerk told him needed an ID, and didn’t show Martin leaving 5 minutes later.
StanS, Trayvon was not “drunk”.
I don’t get your point about why Trayvon would hide and wait for Zimmerman to finish his telephone conversation before attacking.
Here’s what I just read on CNN. Maybe others have seen this before? I haven’t. It’s regarding the eye-witness account from “John”.
CNN: When first interviewed, the witness said the individual on the bottom was calling for help. But a few weeks later, in another interview, he said he wasn’t sure.
“At first I thought it was the person on the ground, because me thinking rationally, if someone was on top, the person on the bottom would be yelling,” the witness aid. “I truly can’t tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help just because it is so dark on that sidewalk. You can’t see a mouth.”
WayneM, I think you were correct about the iced tea being in Trayvon’s pocket. I just read this from CNN:
“One officer who lifted Martin’s shirt at the scene ‘felt a large, cold can in the center pocket’ of the teen’s hoodie, which was the iced tea he’d bought just minutes before. Blood was later spotted on his Skittles, along with a lighter, a T-Mobile brand cell phone, headphones and $40 and some change.”
I would think that a person hiding and intending to attack someone would want to remove bulky objects (like a can of iced tea) from their clothing before doing so.
A “lighter”?
What was that for?
Why was Martin carrying it that evening?
One of the reports said his headset was in his pocket but I did not read where the cell phone was actually found. DeeDee’s story about the headset falling does not make sense.
You said
I would think that a person hiding and intending to attack someone would want to remove bulky objects (like a can of iced tea) from their
clothing before doing so.
I don’t know. That means it would take time to hide them. Maybe he thought he could easily take George out. Just a thought. Where was the cell phone actually found. The headset was in his pocket .
Actually it was a can of watermelon juice.
Usually, people try to be quiet when they hide. They don’t talk on the phone with their friends. Trayvon’s phone records will show that he was talking when some people claim he was hiding.
His phone records will show when his phone was connected.
unitron,
You say:
“Part of the “swaying” can be explained by digging in tight jeans pockets for exact change, something I’ve experienced myself many times.”
Try it yourself, I have, I don’t ‘sway’ or have to lean on a steady object no matter how ‘deep’ I have to reach into a pants pocket. You must have poor balance if you do.
Martin was a fit teenager, who, if he wasn’t so apparently ‘high’ in the video, would not have swayed an inch, no matter how deep the pocket … maybe bend over, but not sway or lose his balance or have to lean on something to keep his balance.
Stan, people move differently. There may have been music on in the store.
If the video proved Trayvon was stoned, we wouldn’t need the lab report.
However, we do have the lab report, which shows that Trayvon had been exposed to marijuana.
According to CNN: “It was not immediately clear how significant these amounts were.”
Now suppose these amounts WERE significant and prove that Trayvon was stoned at the time of his death? Would that information help or hurt the defense case that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, and that Zimmerman had to kill Trayvon in self-defense? You seem to be implying that Trayvon was not physically capable of standing up straight, yet he WAS capable of physically overcoming Zimmerman to such an extent that Zimmerman had to shoot Trayvon in self-defense. I don’t think this is a plausible argument.
Just saw the same point from Sadanie. Thanks Sadanie!
Martin was physically impaired enough to invite enough suspicious movement to justify Zimmerman calling the police dispatcher and ask for an officer to investigate — so the silly ‘profiling’ claim gets even weaker.
Martin was not physically impaired enough to both run and attack Zimmerman, who clearly got the worst of the fight — holding aside the shooting.
If Zimmerman was loosing a fight to a guy who was so stoned he couldn’t pull money out of his pocket without almost falling over, he must have been pretty pitiful as a bouncer.
Oh, wait, I know how how it started!
Trayvon was so baked that he tripped and fell on Zimmerman.
Seriously, the Skittles and Arizona Ice Tea were unopened, so unless he had some of Popeye’s spinach, how does Martin go from so fried it’s a miracle he made it out the door of the 7-11 without planting his face in the linoleum to going all Bruce Lee on Zimmerman when they meet up?
unitron
StanS, the police report gives the reasons for Trayvon’s suspensions: tardiness, graffiti, and empty baggie with marijuana residue. There’s nothing in the police report about a burglary tool or jewelry. That’s internet stuff, not court stuff.
Disingenuous.
See the full Miami Herald article on the suspension — it mentions the screwdriver and jewelry.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html
I posted the relevant part of the article below.
StanS, you said this:
“Martin was not physically impaired enough to both run and attack Zimmerman, who clearly got the worst of the fight — holding aside the shooting.”
I don’t understand. In the wording of your first sentence, it sounds like you’re saying that a person needs to be very physically impaired to both run and attack.
That’s probably not what you mean. (No problem. My stuff in here isn’t perfect either.) But what are you saying? Did you mean that Trayvon was too physically impaired to run, but not too physically impaired to attack?
If so, that’s certainly sounds like a stretch to me. What did you mean to say?
Martin was physically impaired enough to invite enough suspicion about his movements to justify Zimmerman calling the police dispatcher and ask for an officer to investigate — so the silly ‘profiling’ claim gets even weaker.
Martin was not physically impaired enough to prevent him from both running and attacking Zimmerman, who clearly got the worst of the fight — holding aside the shooting.
Nobody but Zimmerman found Trayvon Martin’s behavior or activities suspicious. Zimmerman was on hallucination-inducing meds and drugs that cause aggression — uppers and downers.
Out of the probably hundreds of people that saw Trayvon Martin that night, why is it that ONLY George Zimmerman found Trayvon Martin suspicious? Why is that ONLY George Zimmerman called police dispatch to report Trayvon Martin as a suspicious person?
Why did one of George Zimmerman’s previous employers fire him for complaining about others too often (as reported by a co-worker who claims George Zimmerman bullied him, belittled him based on his race, ridiculed him based on his race/religion and abused his position as mentor to him)?
Speaking of this case and drugs, am I the only one who half expected Zimmerman to go into the “Dave’s not here” routine the first time hearing his call to the police?
unitron
Yes.
If Martin’s phone headset was in his hoodie pocket, as reported on CNN, then DeeDee (assuming that was her on the line) must have been placed on hold before the confrontation and fight because there was no way for Martin to talk to her. This is further evidence she never could have heard what she reported to the media.
Does anyone know if discovery identified exactly what was in Martin’s hoodie when he was shot?
Police report says that the cellphone was “located and collected in the grass of a court(yard?) between buildings”.
Trayvon was not necessarily using his headset, and DeeDee may have only assumed that he was.
From the Miami Herald on Martin’s school suspension:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html
“In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f—.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.
Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family’s lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana, which he called “irrelevant” and an attempt to demonize a victim.
Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.
Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.
“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.
Trayvon was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to the report. School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.”
Where is the best cite to get the documents? Has anyone listened to the entire DD interview?
-MM
Here is the interview:
The girl’s dumber than a pile of rocks. BDLR has to lead her, which won’t be permitted at trial.
-MM
At 14:40 or so she says, in a response to a question by the prosecutor about whether Martin ever said something about the man getting out of the car, she responds “you want that to?”
The prosecution’s star witness is so stupid that she doesn’t understand what at oath to tell the truth means.
It also indicates that she sees this is a coaching session.
-MM
Nope. That’s not at all what DeeDee said.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVTM8sqz4k&feature=relmfu
@ 14:48 – When asked about whether Trayvon explicitly said anything
to DeeDee about Zimmerman getting out of the car, she replies “He walked up to him”. I took that to mean “isn’t if obvious the man got out of the car since he was following him down the footpath?”
Listen to it again. DeeDee clarified what she meant after that, but it was also obvious from the interviewer that he misheard what she said as well.
OK StanS. I get you. You’re saying that Trayvon was physically impaired enough to look stoned and invite suspicion, but not physically impaired enough to prevent him from running and attacking.
Thanks for the clarification. I suppose the jury will decide if Trayvon’s movements in the 7-11 would warrant a call to 911 from any normal bystander. Certainly the 7-11 clerk didn’t call 911, nor did anyone else who happened to see Trayvon walking to the store.
I don’t believe there’s any evidence that Trayvon was the attacker and not the defender. If Zimmerman did continue to follow Trayvon – either after talking to police or after returning to his vehicle – and if Trayvon saw Zimmerman’s gun at any point during the initial confrontation, then Trayvon would have been justified in doing whatever he needed to do in defense of his life.
I think we have to remember that Zimmerman’s gun was fully loaded, and Zimmerman chose to take it with him when he left his vehicle, which was also his own choice. He was not ordered by the dispatcher to leave his vehicle. That much we know. We may speculate that Zimmerman thought the dispatcher wanted Zimmerman to follow Trayvon, but that’s pure speculation, and against training principles taught to community watch by the police.
Certainly, nothing that the dispatcher said during the call could be interpreted as: “Please load your gun and bring it with you when you follow the teenager to see which way he went”.
Most likely Zimmerman’s weapon was hidden in his waistband holster — that’s the common carrying place for those with a Concealed Handgun License (speaking from experience). It’s called a “Concealed” license for a reason. That is part of the training principles taught to everyone that applies and goes to class to received a CHL. Someone with a CHL “takes” his/her weapon with them where ever they go. As a result, it’s highly unlikely that Martin saw the weapon until they were on the ground rolling around (which is exactly what Zimmerman has indicated).
HP,
The police dispatcher did not order GZ not to follow him. (1) A police dispatcher, unlike an officer on the scene, can’t order anyone to do anything. (2) He said only, “we don’t need you to do that.” GZ responded “OK.”
-MM
No police dispatcher ordered Trayvon Martin to go directly home.
PeterO, If we’re bringing up backgrounds, then of course, to be fair, we’ll have to discuss some prior Zimmerman incidents – which were of a violent nature, in contrast to incidents associated with Trayvon.
To repeat from before: The police report includes the reasons for Trayvon’s suspensions. Neither jewelry or a burglary tool were mentioned in the report, and that’s an important distinction.
Actually, Zimmerman’s violent past is probably more relevant than Trayvon’s school suspensions. Zimmerman WAS NOT AWARE of anything about Trayvon’s ALLEGED past association with jewelry and a burglary tool. so Trayvon’s past has nothing to do with why Zimmerman called police. The police report states that Trayvon did not commit any crime on the night in question, so there’s no evidence of actual justification for the call to police that relates in any way to anything that might have happened in Trayvon’s past. In addition, previous alleged Trayvon incidents are not violent in nature, and therefore are not relevant in determining who attacked whom.
In contrast, Zimmerman DID have a violent history according to acquaintenances from his past. A coworker claims that when Zimmerman was employed as a bouncer for “illegal houseparties”, he picked up a girl and threw her, breaking her ankle.
We don’t hear about that from the pro-Zimmerman folks. Instead we hear about Trayvon watching boxing matches on television or some such thing.
Sorry. That should be “twisting her ankle” (not breaking).
Exactly! Trayvon Martin did NOT have a history of violence, but George Zimmerman did.
The following is from rawstory.com:
The neighborhood watchman who in February shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was once fired from his job as a security guard for “being too aggressive,” according to a new report.
An unnamed former co-worker told the New York Daily News that George Zimmerman was paid under-the-table for providing security for illegal house parties between 2001 and 2005, but was let go because his anger issues “became a liability.”
“Usually he was just a cool guy,” the former co-worker explained. “He liked to drink and hang with the women like the rest of us. … But it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When the dude snapped, he snapped.”
“He had a temper and he became a liability,” he recalled. “One time this woman was acting a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted. … It was weird, because he was such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out.”
In 2005, the same year that Zimmerman lost his security guard job, he was also arrested for “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer,” both third-degree felonies. Those charges were dropped after he agreed to enter an alcohol education program.
MSNBC reported that his ex-fiancee, Veronica Zuazo, alleged domestic violence and filed a motion for a restraining order in 2005. Zimmerman then filed for a restraining order against Zuazo and both later dropped their motions.
Given Trayvon’s alleged past and Zimmerman’s alleged past, which of these two would you rather meet in a dark alley?
The arrest record for the 2005 incident was released as part of the bail hearing. There was a plainclothes ABC agent who was interviewing an employee at a bar near the UCF campus. Since an ABC agent would be trying to enforce laws against underage drinking, he would be most likely be fairly casually dressed. After Zimmerman came up to know why this guy was hassling his friend, the ABC agent claims that he identified himself and showed his badge, and then began to lead Zimmerman away. Zimmerman shrugged his shoulders and pushed the ABC agent away. Neither party was injured. If you are being led away and you shrug your shoulders, it likely means that agent grabbed Zimmerman’s shoulder and was pushing him away from where he was trying to interview the employee. And if you are pushing, you are likely sweeping your arms backward.
The charges were later reduced to misdemeanors, and then underwent pre-trial diversion.
Judge Lester said that even though it was in a different jurisdiction, he thought he had a pretty good idea of how things happened, in what he referred to as the UCF corridor. This probably meant that ABC agents don’t want to arrest a bunch of students for underage drinking, but really simply want to make the bars check IDs; and that pretrial diversion was the normal way to hand such cases.
Zuazo’s application for a restraining order occurred after they apparently were already splitting, and they were arguing and Zuazo’s dog bit Zimmerman, and Zuazo called 911, and they suggested that she should file for a restraining order. Zimmerman did the same, and both orders were granted, ordering them to stay away from each other for one year (MSNBC version is in error).
In Zuozo’s application, she mainly related the final incident, but also included a couple of earlier incidents (when Zimmerman was likely 18). She claimed that she popped a bubble in his face, and Zimmerman then slapped her.
What IS an illegal house party anyway? Anyone know what this means?
Maybe one where alcohol is being sold and there are more people in the house than would normally be allowed. Basically running a bar out of your house; hence the need for a bouncer.
I took it to mean a party that was not in a facility licensed to do business as a club which probably sells liquor without a license and probably to underaged patrons. The incident where George Zimmerman was arrested for assaulting a police officer was one which involved an underaged drinking bust.
Does anyone have a link to Witness Statement of W2? Apparently he or she said they saw one person chasing another and in an area where GZ says he never went. This could undermine GZ’s claim, particularly when combined with the fact that the shooting was not all that close to the truck.
-MM
Thanks Mark. I’m catching snippets of this two, but not seeing anything yet in the police report. Does anyone know where to look?
On page 40 of the 183 page PDF. She was upstairs and had her contacts out and only had a glance.
Although I think GZ’s version of events is most plausible, there are other scenarios.
For example, after the dispatch call ends, GZ starts looking for TM. GZ spots TM and chases him, or TM spots GZ and chases him. The chase then goes in the opposite direction of the house and toward the car. There’s a confrontation, then s struggle, then the gunshot.
Note that this wouldn’t necessarily mean that GZ didn’t have a right of self-defense, particularly if TM was chasing him. On the other hand, he might have felt that this version would likely result in his being prosecuted because it is more murky.
Even here, we need a good explanation as to why TM didn’t go home since that’s the direction he was running and it would have taken at most 25 seconds to get there.
Also, GZ knows that the police are on the way. I don’t think he’d want to start a fight knowing they were coming.
-MM
First, there is no need for any explanation as to why Trayvon Martin didn’t go home. It is NOT illegal to not go home. Surely you understand this if you present as your logic for Zimmerman’s actions that it was not illegal to follow Trayvon Martin even after the police dispatch advised not to. Both people have equal legal rights to walk around, right?
Second, the witness stated that she saw two people running, one behind the other and a flashlight in between them. Only George Zimmerman had a flashlight and therefore George Zimmerman was the chaser.
Mr. Change,
Of course TM wasn’t obligated to go home. However, the state’s claim is that he was attempting to go home and was prevented by GZ. There is no evidence for this claim, and even their star witness (the brainless DD) doesn’t give any reason to think otherwise.
-MM
Summary of DeeDee’s full 22 minute interview:
Worthless.
In the interview she is many times incoherent and her snippets of the “events” differs from what we can clearly hear on the dispatcher’s tape. The interviewer not only asks “softball” leading questions but completely avoids what Martin was saying in the many minutes of gaps between the (incoherent) “action.” Notably, she tones down her “terminator” type chase of Martin by Zimmerman — its still there, it but differs from her two (contradictory) ABC interviews
She describes — or implies (she is that incoherent) — chases that are impossible to have occurred when compared to the dispatcher tape and the simple layout of the area. She says Martin had gotten home but then offers no explanation as to what he was doing next for several minutes nor does the interviewer push her on this issue. She lets slip that Martin said Zimmerman is “in trouble.”
She, with the ‘help’ of the interviewer, strings together random “events” with no or contradictory sequential time identification for those events and she makes presumptions with the obvious goal of hurting Zimmerman.
It is very telling that the interviewer makes no attempt to question her about what was being said from when Martin left the store other then the few snippets of the ‘story’ she came up with. Except for those few words (which she says she remembers so clearly five weeks later) she is barely questioned about anything else that was said and, at one point, when she is prompted about what Trayvon was saying about his mother — during the 6 hours on the phone that day — she cannot remember except to “testify” that Martin was a “mother’s boy.”
The 7/11 tape shows Martin left the store before 6:30 and it is clear from the tape that he was NOT talking to anyone on the phone while he was being taped at the store. Yet she says she was continually talking to Martin at the store. The store was only about .8 mile from Brandy’s apt. (a less than 20 minute walk). She says Martin told her he was rushing back to see the NBA game. Yet, 40 minutes later, he is (presumably) at the clubhouse.
She confirms that Martin saw Zimmerman was on the phone sitting in his car. How does Zimmerman look “crazy” doing that? It also confirms a reason for why Martin waited until Zimmerman was off the phone before attacking — so the other party, which could be the police, would not hear Martin attacking over the phone.
The “interview” is a disgrace and was clearly orchestrated after a decision to prosecute Zimmerman was made and to make the best of a worthless witness. DeeDee said more in the contradictory and distorted ABC interviews. It is telling that despite DeeDee as ‘witness’, Gilbreath testified that the State had no evidence as to who started the confrontation.
headphones.
The rest of your non-facts are too ridiculous to bother with. google is your friend. use it.
Why are you being so caustic? You dismiss his post as being too
ridiculous to respond to but, in doing so, you disrespect others here who may agree with him so your post is not just a personal attack.. Most of us here are civil to each other. I am a bit surprised that Susan has tolerated some of your comments. At any rate, I felt the need to vent my opinion.
First of all, one would think that Crump would have coached her enough to get the story straight. This whole thing defies logic. You said:
In the interview she is many times incoherent
Well, I am glad that I am not the only one who sees that.
BBRAB, I understand that a Concealed Handgun License allows a person to carry a concealed weapon in their wasteband. I don’t have a problem with that.
But do the training principles include instruction that the weapon MUST be with you at all times, or SHOULD be with you at all times (church, school, dropping the kids off for preschool, etc.). I don’t think so. After receiving the CHL, a person must determine for themselves when it is appropriate to carry a loaded weapon.
Zimmerman was told by police previously (during police sessions in his neighborhood) that it is not appropriate for neighborhood watch to follow a suspect. While it may be legal to carry a loaded weapon during an inappropriate activity, it’s certainly not a choice that would be condoned by law enforcement.
inappropriate activity.
The training principles for CHL allow one to carry their weapon any time that it is not explicitly prohibited. I assume the prohibitions vary by state, but in TX, they include bars, airports, courthouses, etc. Being in your neighborhood would not be a prohibited place (even if on neighborhood watch patrol). I thought there was some question as to whether or not Zimmerman was actually on watch patrol that evening. Hasn’t it been said (by someone — can’t remember if it was his brother or what) that Zimmerman was actually on his way to Target when he saw Martin? If that’s true, it makes even more sense that he was carrying his weapon, as that’s the point of a CHL — to be able to carry your weapon with you most of the time.
You have made an excellent point, particularly in light of those who have bashed George, claiming it is illegal, stupid or whatever.. ..
for a watchman to be carrying a gun while watching the neighborhood.
The fact that he was on his way to Target could be significant since he was not performing any “official duty” IMO even though there is no such thing as official duty. Thank you.
I am pretty much up to speed on this case even though I prefer to follow what others say here but I had NEVER thought about that so maybe i have overrated myself. LMAO.
Hi BBRAB,
I’m just trying to make clear the fact that Zimmerman was not REQUIRED to take his loaded weapon with him when he followed Trayvon. But I guess we all know that already.
The Police not wanting or frowning on you carrying while on Neighborhood Watch is not only irrelevant, it is illegal under FL Law. Any official telling Zimmerman he can’t carry on neighborhood watch can be prosecuted. We the people of FL have spoken very clearly on this, we have placed restraints on Police, Prosecutors, and Govt. officials in general that WE will be the ones determining through our legislature when we can carry, not the whims of local govt. FL Cities and Counties are furiously scrubbing their books of any reference to local firearms regulations so they do not get charged with a violation of 790.33. If Corey is found to have violated the gun rights of the citizens of FL, as a number of cases she is presently prosecuting seem to show she has no prosecutuorial immunity. The Emperor Bloomberg’s, and King Daley’s of the world will not be tolerated in our state. Here are a couple of excerpts:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.33.html
790.33 Field of regulation of firearms and ammunition preempted.
(1) PREEMPTION.—Except as expressly provided by the State Constitution or general law, the Legislature hereby declares that it is occupying the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, including the purchase, sale, transfer, taxation, manufacture, ownership, possession, storage, and transportation thereof, to the exclusion of all existing and future county, city, town, or municipal ordinances or any administrative regulations or rules adopted by local or state government relating thereto. Any such existing ordinances, rules, or regulations are hereby declared null and void.
—–
(3) PROHIBITIONS; PENALTIES.—
(a) Any person, county, agency, municipality, district, or other entity that violates the Legislature’s occupation of the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, as declared in subsection (1), by enacting or causing to be enforced any local ordinance or administrative rule or regulation impinging upon such exclusive occupation of the field shall be liable as set forth herein.
—–
(c) If the court determines that a violation was knowing and willful, the court shall assess a civil fine of up to $5,000 against the elected or appointed local government official or officials or administrative agency head under whose jurisdiction the violation occurred.
As Mark pointed out, he was on his way to Target. He was not “officially on duty” as a watchman. Unless the law has changed in Florida where I live, it is illegal to tell someone not to carry.
” in light of those who have bashed George, claiming it is illegal, stupid or whatever.. .. for a watchman to be carrying a gun while watching the neighborhood. The fact that he was on his way to Target could be significant since he was not performing any “official duty” IMO even though there is no such thing as official duty”
Page 137 of the evidence states otherwise. In Serino’s summary it says Zimmerman “observed the male while walking his neighborhood watch.”
” Page 137 of the evidence states otherwise. In Serino’s summary it says Zimmerman “observed the male while walking his neighborhood watch.” ”
Walking?
Problem with that is that it’s obvious from the audio of Zimmerman’s phone call to the police that he’s in his vehicle for the first 2 minutes, 14 seconds, cause that’s when you hear him shut the door behind him.
unitron
Again, you make an excellent point so what supports Serino’s statement? Wonder if there is any proof that George was on his way to Target?
“Again, you make an excellent point so what supports Serino’s statement? Wonder if there is any proof that George was on his way to Target?”
Of course there is, everybody knows his wife beat him up and busted his nose and threatened worse if he didn’t get himself down to the store and get her a giant bag of Skittles.
: – )
unitron
Zimmerman was not walking when he first made the call, .He was in his vehicle so I don’t know how he justifies such a statement but there are a lot he says that doesn’t make sense to me.
“Page 137 of the evidence states otherwise. In Serino’s summary it says Zimmerman “observed the male while walking his neighborhood watch.”
That is within the medical examiner’s report. Serino arrived on the site of the shooting at about 8:00, and contacted the medical examiner at 8:20. The medical arrive at 9:39 while Serino was still there. In the meantime, Serino had done some interviews with residents. He did not interview Zimmerman until 11:35.
So Serino arrives, he is shown the gunshot wound in the chest, and is told that Zimmerman shot him (and has already been transferred to police custody). Some officers knew Zimmerman from Neighborhood Watch. Serino talked to Officer Ayala at the scene, who had been dispatched as a result of Zimmerman’s call. Ayala also said that when he arrived, Officer T Smith had Zimmerman in custody and was standing up. There have been some overhead conversation about fighting. Serino calls the medical examiner and makes some sort of preliminary assessment on what he knew then (after he had been there 20 minutes).
Alternatively, Serino talks to medical examiner after they arrive at 9:44 – but that would mean they had got their report out of order, and this would have been after Serino had interviewed some witnesses.
I have not read all of the evidence. I started and realized that so much had been redacted, it was futile to get a clear picture of everything.
Are YOUR comments based upon the reports that have been released? Serino is an intriguing character and he is often contradictory according to what I have read. Seems like he does some “guessing” or at least makes some unfounded assumptions. Am I correct?
“Again, you make an excellent point so what supports Serino’s statement? Wonder if there is any proof that George was on his way to Target?”
Zimmerman supposedly sent a txt message to his sister when he was leaving. His phone records are part of the evidence (though likely 100% redacted).
WayneS:
“I have not read all of the evidence. I started and realized that so much had been redacted, it was futile to get a clear picture of everything.
Are YOUR comments based upon the reports that have been released? Serino is an intriguing character and he is often contradictory according to what I have read. Seems like he does some “guessing” or at least makes some unfounded assumptions. Am I correct?”
The part on page 137 is what the medical examiner reported what Serino told them. Serino is listed as the “point of contact” and the ME report says that “Serino stated:”
The next paragraph is about what the FI (forensic invesigator) reported when she arrived at 9:44.
My guess is that the medical examiners are extremely methodical. Do-overs on autopsies are frowned upon. They might even record the phone call from police.
Volusia County (Daytona Beach) provides medical examiner services for Seminole County. I don’t know whether there is a morgue in Seminole County or not. Sanford is the county seat, but it is not centrally located, and it is only 49 minutes from Daytona Beach to Sanford (and they arrived in 84 minutes).
So the medical examiner may get calls from all different quality of police agencies.
It is plausible that a police investigator might fib a bit to medical examiners so as to not prejudice them. So Serino told them there was a gunshot following some sort of physical fight (which could include wrestling, choking, fists, kicks, maybe clubbing). This leaves it up to medical examiner to make conclusions about distance, direction, etc.
Serino gives (beginning at page 36) a pretty step-by-step rendition what he did that night. The police officers on the scene handed out paper reports for people to fill out. Then Serino came by later and taped them.
Serino arrived at 8:00. Based on discussion with the officers at the scene and written interviews he ordered the investigator at the police station to remove Zimmerman’s restraints before interviewing him (based on the possibility of this being self defense, see page 37). At Serino 8:20 spoke with Volusia County Medical Examiner investigator Tara Clark, requesting her response. It’s reasonable that page 137 is what Serino told her at that time.
Serino interviewed 3 witnesses, and then says that Clark arrived at 9:30. Clark reports 9:44. I’d bet it was 9:44. It is my hunch that Serino knew enough by then, that he wouldn’t have made his statement at this time, but rather at 8:20 – 20 minutes after he showed up.
After this, there is big chunk of retracted information, which probably means it is his interview with Zimmerman that night. At 11:45 he talked to the assistant state attorney. There is another chunk of redacted material, which is probably the walk through on the 27th.
hapufern says:
“We may speculate that Zimmerman thought the dispatcher wanted Zimmerman to follow Trayvon, but that’s pure speculation, and against training principles taught to community watch by the police. ”
Yet, the schizophrenic prosecution theory of Zimmerman’s guilt is that Zimmerman, to have avoided the shooting, should have confronted Martin and asked him what he was doing in the complex!
This case is a disaster for the State.
No StanS. Sorry, but the contention by the prosecution – and the police – is that when the two of them did meet, Zimmerman should have identified himself.
Stan,
If this has all the prosecutor has, it is a disgrace to prosecute.
Note that around 9 minutes in, DD says that TM tell her he is “right near” the house. Then she says “two minutes” later TM says he is being followed again.
BDLR didn’t ask her why she didn’t inquire as to why he didn’t get into the house, among other things. Isn’t this where DD says she told him to go?
This girl will be destroyed on cross examination.
-MM
The DeeDee interview was made after the decision to prosecute was made. So the interviewer made sure he was conducting a “Crump” style interview and was careful not to elicit anything the defense could use.
Throughout the interview, the interviewer asks leading questions that are clearly designed to elicit the same snippets she quoted to ABC news, but she still screwed up her story. Compare this interview (under oath) to the ‘certainty’ of the contradictory ABC interview snippets.
Behind the scenes, I an certain the prosecutor threw up his/her hands and the investigators decided to not use her statement … which explains why Gilbreath testified that there was no evidence as to who confronted who.
Georger Zimmerman chased Trayvon Martin away from his own home, albeit a temporary home he was visiting. This is NOT hard.
You said;
This girl will be destroyed on cross examination.
Holy cow and LMAO. I seriously doubt that “THIS GIRL” as you say will EVER get anywhere near a deposition table let alone a witness stand. She is 15 or 16 and it sounded to me like she could barely speak intelligible sentences. I do not know anyone who talks like that unless they are joking around. Not making fun of her, Susan. but I cannot picture a jury listening to her without a translator.
@CommonSenseForChange — Here is what is “not HARD” — IF the story that Zimmerman has given cannot be refuted with the evidence (granted, some of which we have probably not heard yet), then I don’t think there is ANY WAY the prosecution can get beyond reasonable doubt. The law doesn’t require Zimmerman’s version to be proven — only that it is plausible and reasonable in light of the evidence. So far, the evidence seems to support his version, at least enough to provide the required reasonable doubt. All other speculation, etc., is interesting, but not that relevant, IMHO.
One of the witnesses describes Martin’s attack as exactly like a MMA bout (mixed martial arts). I found it striking that he used the term MMA since that is what came to mind when I first heard Zimmerman’s version of how he was being attacked.
The term in MMA is “ground and pound” (a person can be easily killed in such an attack in real life on a cement walkway with no “referee” to stop it and with no rules). Here is a link to a MMA video that shows the damage that can be inflicted (these are middleweights, a category Martin would fall under):
Susan does not allow links to Martin’s ‘fight club’ videos he posted on YouTube, but those posts, along with his tweets on his “swinging on a bus driver” show he knew about fighting and had a violent streak.
Picture yourself undergoing the beating you can see in the above video. You would not be in fear of grave bodily harm (or even death) under those circumstances? If you say no, I say I don’t believe you.
If you look closely at the above “ground and pound” attack you can see a point where the fighter on top places his hand over the face of the person on the ground (exactly what Zimmerman described was happening to him). This technique is to hold the head in place and disorient the person on the bottom so the other hand can be used to continually punch the head of the opponent on the ground. Such a fight can be over in seconds with a knockout and Zimmerman was very lucky to shoot when he did because, in a matter of seconds, he would have been unable to do anything.
The 7/11 video shows Martin has very large hands, so placing his hands over Zimmerman’s face was a very effective attacking technique and explains why Zimmerman believed he was being smothered. Another supporting reason is to keep Zimmerman quiet while Martin was smashing Zimmerman’s head.
Gee, maybe we should now suspect that every kid playing violent video games or every adult that attends goes to see a fighting match is a potential killer because they have a violent streak.
Yes, I would be afraid of the kind of grave bodily harm displayed in the video, but TRAYVON IS NOT IN THE VIDEO.
Definitely, I’d rather meet someone in a dark alley who watches fight club videos than someone who throws girls across the room. Most people would think there’s a big difference between watching violence and acting violent.
Martin’s own YouTube videos (banned from this site) show him “refereeing” a violent bare knuckle fight between two teenagers at his school. So he was participating, indeed encouraging violent fights.
A topic in his (since purged) tweets was his attacking a bus driver.
He was caught carrying a screwdriver to school — a potentially lethal weapon.
His tweets (and his suspension) indicate he was a drug dealer (I admit that, if this is true, he was probably only a low level dealer) — a ‘profession’ notoriously associated with violence.
This use of this very descriptive terminology could make a compelling witness. Who uses that term except for people who know what they saw? I would believe that. testimony .
I found it striking that he used the term MMA since that is what came to mind when I first heard Zimmerman’s version of how he was being attacked.
Stan,
The idea of TM making a mad dash to the house only to be killed by GZ is now out of the picture.
And the probable cause affidavit’s claim that GM prevented TM from getting home is contradicted by DD’s statement that TM had at least two minutes to walk up to the steps, open the door, and walk in.
-MM
Mark, Trayvon did not have a house key. Do you know that the door was unlocked? No, you don’t.
No we don’t, but it seems unlikely he would have left the house without a key unless he knew the door was open or that Chad would be there to open it.
Also, DD never reports to BDLR that TM told her that he couldn’t get back in the house.
-MM
Has it been established whether Martin did have an ear piece that night?
A headset was found in his pocket .
“A headset was found in his pocket .”
The police report says that *headphones* were found on the ground near the body, but I don’t recall seeing any mention of a headset in the personal property inventory, especially any mention of either still being in a pocket.
unitron
I apologize. I was posting from my “memory” of what I read at another site. I don’t really know the difference between the two (I am 65) but I am sure I read they were found in his pocket . I should know better than to do this without posting a source. I do know the site but Susan has forbidden it here. Sorry.
“I don’t really know the difference between the two (I am 65) but I am sure I read they were found in his pocket . ”
Assuming the police were accurate as to what they found, headphones would be two earpieces, one for the left channel and one for the right channel, and no microphone, and a headset would be an earpiece with an attached or built in microphone.
As for that link you could email it to me at *coastalnet.com
*unitron
Stan and Mark. First of all, if someone is seen punching someone else, this doesn’t tell us why. We also know that Zimmerman shot Trayvon. Trayvon may have been trying to defend himself from getting shot.
Also, we don’t know why Trayvon didn’t enter the house, and it’s just as possible today as it was yesterday that the reason may have been that Trayvon didn’t want Zimmerman to follow into the house.
Or, since Trayvon DIDN’T HAVE A HOUSE KEY, both doors to the house may have been locked. Trayvon may have had to knock on the door, and he may have worried that the younger boy inside the house would not get to the door fast enough to open it before Trayvon could enter. Trayvon would be trapped by Zimmerman at the door.
Certainly, Dee Dee was not attempting to steer away from the fact that Trayvon was near to his house at time(s) during events leading up to the confrontation.
There are probably many possible scenarios. If you don’t like Dee Dee’s testimony and don’t believe it’s credible, then it’s also not credible for you to cherry-pick it for phrases that are only favorable to Zimmerman.
I don’t think there’s any reason to display such outright vehemence against a 15-year-old girl who had the misfortune to be on the phone with an aquaintance from kindergarten just be fore he died. Read the testimony and remark on it, but please have a little more um, I don’t know what, and try to refrain from calling her names. She’s a minor. I mean, really.
Much of the case rests on what exactly Zimmerman told the police and if his story fits the known evidence.
HP,
I don’t believe DD’s account is credible. But if the state is putting it forward to establish that BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT Zimmerman murdered TM then it’s only fair to use on that terms.
If this were a civil case and the issue was whether it is more likely than not that GZ was the agressor then the info about the house key, etc. might tip the scales. But is anyone seriously going to argue that based on the evidence so far that GZ murdered TM beyond a reasonable doubt?
Let’s face it, not even the lead investigator has info on who threw the first punch.
-MM
hapufern,
you said:
“No StanS. Sorry, but the contention by the prosecution – and the police – is that when the two of them did meet, Zimmerman should have identified himself.”
But here is the relevant part of what the prosecution actually said:
““The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party’s concern.”
When and where does Zimmerman “identif[y] himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiate[] dialog”? You say that should have happened when the two met. But isn’t that exactly when the State contends the “confrontation” occurred? How does that conversation go … like this?: “I [Zimmerman] am a concerned citizen. What are you doing in this private apartment complex?”
If you believe DeeDee, isn’t that what she says Zimmerman essentially said after Martin purportedly said “why are you following me?”
Also, is the State now saying that, instead of Zimmerman stopping after the dispatcher advised him to do so (to protect Zimmerman) after he left his truck, Zimmerman should really have kept running after the suspect to tell him “I am a concerned citizen etc.”?
For the State to convict Zimmerman because he didn’t “identif[y] himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiate[] dialog” necessarily presumes the two came into proximity with each other. When was that supposed to occur? The only way I can see that contact to occur is if the state now says Zimmerman should have followed the suspect to get close enough to say those words.
The State’s case is so logically twisted, contradictory and schizophrenic that it is a disgrace.
Stan, we know that the two met at some point. They obviously did “come into proximity with each other”. They had an opportunity to initiate dialog, and both Zimmerman and DeeDee have said that dialog did take place.
I’m sure you know this already. The prosecution is obviously not saying that Zimmerman should have left his vehicle to initiate dialog. The prosecution is also not saying that Zimmerman should have kept running after Trayvon to initiate dialog.
The prosecution – and the police – are saying that:
One Zimmerman mistake is: Zimmerman should not have gotten out of the vehicle.
Another Zimmerman mistake is: When Zimmerman, who is already out of the vehicle, does meet up with Trayvon, Zimmerman should have identified himself (meaning that Zimmerman should have told Trayvon that Zimmerman is on patrol for neighborhood watch, or simply said that he was a concerned citizen, BEFORE asking any questions). Zimmerman did not do this, in any of the testimony so far.
This is WHY neighborhood watch guys are told by the police to NOT follow suspects. They are not wearing identification, and no one automatically knows who they are. They are not trained in interrogation either, and don’t have the skills for asking questions or confronting suspects.
If Trayvon asked ” why are you following me”, and Zimmerman didn’t answer, but instead asked, “what are you doing here?” there we go. Zimmerman avoided the perfect opportunity to give an answer that might have prevented a confrontation, but according to DeeDee’s testimony, Zimmerman chose not to take advantage of that opportunity.
halpefern,
You just solved the case! All Zimmerman had to do was to add this to what he said to the suspect: “I am a concerned citizen.” And then he never would have been accused of murder since Martin would then have refrained from attacking him!
BTW, DeeDee and Zimmerman’s version of what was said, differ considerably.
StanS, I know you know I’m right (kidding).
hapufern,
You admitted: “Yes, I would be afraid of the kind of grave bodily harm displayed in the video”
That, of course, is Zimmerman’s defense — he was afraid of grave bodily harm because his head was being pounded into the concrete walkway in exactly the manner portrayed in the video, which manner is a fighting technique commonly used in MMA. And — if it isn’t already clear it will be made clear by O’Mara at trial — which was a ‘hobby’, pastime or interest of Martin.
And that is apparently what he told the witness and apparently what the witness repeated. Funny thing, though. People tend to back off of silly stories once the FBI come knocking on their door. Not sure why people don’t feel the need to tell the police the truth, but feel the need to fess up the truth when the FBI ask the same questions.
In any event, your star witness has changed his Zimmerman-match of a story now and it seems he’s a witness for the prosecution at this point.
CSFC,
Please show your link. My guess is you are leaving something out.
My guess is that, as is the normal case with witnesses, he saw enough to make reasonable assumptions and that what he actually saw and heard still supports Zimmerman’s statement and will help get this ludicrous case thrown out.
CSFC,
BTW, any witness who gave a deliberately false statement to the police at the time of the incident is already subject to penalties of the law.
So saying “the FBI came knocking” is ridiculous and a misguided attempt to discredit him.
Whoever this witness is, reported whatever he saw and heard in his original statement (made under penalty of law). Are you now saying he lied? Who is he? How did he correct his statement?
The only statement I am aware changed was that of a young african american boy who said he saw Zimmerman being beaten up … and then his mother claimed he changed his story (surely there was considerable pressure placed on that family — after the press disclosed his name — to change his testimony). There are probably tapes of what he (and other witnesses) said and even if a version of an eyewitness statement may, upon further reflection, change, the most reliable statements are usually the original statements made when events were fresh.
The jury will see all statements, including changes, and judge for themselves how much truth to glean from them.
Also, the US Attorney’s office will not touch this case with the proverbial ‘ten foot pole.’ Particularly, if it wants to get Obama reelected.
Not sure what you mean since the election is in November. Maybe the state portion of this case could be over by then but I doubt it. I do NOT trust the DOJ and Holder to stay out of this if Zimmerman is cleared but I do hope you are correct .
“BTW, any witness who gave a deliberately false statement to the police at the time of the incident is already subject to penalties of the law. So saying ‘the FBI came knocking’ is ridiculous and a misguided attempt to discredit him.”
Yeah. When people lie to police, they consult law books to make sure they won’t go to jail.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-22/news/os-george-zimmerman-key-witnesses-20120522_1_witnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent
Just wanted to mention that I have multiple screwdrivers. How many do you have?
Very curious about why a screwdriver is described as a burglary tool without evidence of a burglary. What’s even more peculiar is people repeating the non-sense that a screwdriver is evidence of Trayvon Martin’s guilt of being a criminal.
Please post the telephone number I should report all the auto-mechanics, carpenters, equipment installers that possess these tools also. Wasn’t Trayvon Martin planning to be an aviation mechanic? Did his high-school offer “shop” classes?
Get a grip scared people.
Wedding rings; women’s earrings; other jewelery and a watch that didn’t belong to Martin — all of which went to the police for claim by the rightful owners. If these items were Martin’s or anyone he got them from, they wouldn’t have been turned over to the police
Yes, all scholarship students should carry screwdrivers to school — along with drugs and (stolen?) jewelery.
Can’t a broad headed screwdriver be used to jimmy windows? Maybe Martin was burglarizing local homes around his school?
It was the school investigator, who busted Martin, who characterized the screwdriver as a “burglary tool.”
Thanks commonsense. Your name fits.
Stan, Jeez, the screwdriver now morphs from a burglary tool to a “potentially lethal weapon”? Got to admit, that had me LOL.
CommonSense, when you mentioned the witness going over to the prosecution, were you talking about the mysterious anonymous “John”?
This is what I read yesterday on CNN about “John”:
CNN: When first interviewed, the witness said the individual on the bottom was calling for help. But a few weeks later, in another interview, he said he wasn’t sure.
“At first I thought it was the person on the ground, because me thinking rationally, if someone was on top, the person on the bottom would be yelling,” the witness aid. “I truly can’t tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help just because it is so dark on that sidewalk. You can’t see a mouth.”
If CSFC confirms this is the witness he was referring to, then my comment is:
This is “going over to the prosecution”?
Yes. I was referring to witness John. He is an eye-witness to the scuffle that took place ON THE GRASS. The only other value he would have provided to the defense was in his original story when he said it was Zimmerman screaming for help. That’s off the table now since he admits he doesn’t know who was actually yelling for help.
I found his original 9-1-1 call suspicious from the beginning any way. If he is 9-1-1 caller on tape 2 released by SPD, he claims he heard (past tense) a shot right behind his house and afterwards claims “they are wrestling and someone is yelling help” (present tense) as if the wrestling and screams for help came after the shot. His account to the dispatch just struck me as odd.
Later in that same call, 9-1-1 dispatch asked about the voices he heard and John cut off the dispatcher’s line of questioning. He also says that there “are multiple people calling right now, I’m thinking”. This came after dispatch mentioned several calls came in. This guy was reprocessing out loud what dispatch had already said. Could be due to nervousness or due to something else.
“CommonSense”,
Caller 2 reported that had just heard a gun shot, and that they’re wrestling and the guy is yelling for help and I’m not going outside. This was all before 22 seconds into the call.
There are all kinds of gaps in this call, and it is at 46 seconds, that the dispatcher asks, “and you can hear someone calling for help”. It is then that the caller says, “I am pretty sure the guy is dead”.
He is then reporting what he is observing from his upstairs window through the rest of the call.
His witness statement was that he was watching TV and heard yelling, and he went to his back door and observed wrestling, opened the door and said he was going to call the cops, he ran upstairs and heard a shot.
The stairways go up toward the front of the units ending up over the garage on front of the units. I don’t know where his phone is at. His 911 call also suggests it might have been a rock at the window.
Since his intent for going inside was to report the fighting, it makes sense to report that in the present tense, even though the shot had intervened in importance. And it is really impossible to be hearing a shot, so that gets reported in the past tense, I heard a shot.
And the dispatcher and he were miscommunicating. He reported the shot, she took his name, address, phone number, and then he started telling about the wrestling, and she asked how many shots he had heard. After the long gap, she asks whether he still hears yelling, and by now he is looking out the window. She is trying to get him to tell him what happened before, and he is reporting what is happening in the present.
There is another witness who reported that she had opened her patio door to take her dog for a walk, when she heard noises or yelling, and then heard a neighbor ask if he should call 911 – and she was thinking it was her elderly neighbor having a heart attack, and she went back inside and heard the shot and called 911.
I wonder why, if the defense has such a good case, people who are for the defense feel they have to bring up stuff like fight club videos, lethal screwdrivers, and graffiti?
LOL . No case is a slam dunk so nothing is off the table . IF this goes to trail and that’s a big IF. there is the still the process or picking a jury. Don’t you think there is a lot of previous media bias against George that still exits? So the defense wants to even things a bit to have a level playing field. Hopefully that will not be necessary.
HP,
I think the defense has a good case. I only mention fight club videos and the like because Team Skittles tells us that the self-proclaimed “no limit nigga” was such a saint that he could never have taken an unprovoked swing at anyone.
-MM
I suspect you visit some of the same sites that I do. I began to use the term, Scheming Team Skittles quite a while ago actually when I first discovered the connection between Crump and certain other unsavory characters. I am a retired newspaper consultant and a few old friends in the business filled me in.
What I cannot confirm is how and why Scott made his decision other than what most of us speculate and that is was “political’ but there is a lot more to this story than that. Exactly what deals were made and who were the participants? That is a large part of this story but no one is talking
Mark, thanks for your post above here somewhere. Basically, I don’t think we have proof one way or the other yet. I think there’s more to come.
The witness on page 40 – 41 of the police report said she saw two men chasing each other, then a fistfight, and then she heard a gunshot.
Unfortunately, she didn’t see anything very well, but she said the two men were headed in the direction of the T between Twin Trees and Retreat View Circle. The first man must have had a flashlight because she said there was a flashlight between them.
The report doesn’t say if they were running toward the north T or toward the south T.
If they were running with 10 – 12′ in between like she said, then in my opinion, they had to be going further than just from the north end of the rows to the spot where Trayvon was killed. This implies that they were moving toward the north T. If so, then that blows my theory out of the water (of Trayvon losing Zimmerman by going around the south end of the buildings and then around the north end of the second row, and heading south again toward Brandy’s apt.).
Of course, this blows Stan’s theory out of the water as well, since in Stan’s/Zimmerman’s version, Trayvon confronted Zimmerman and then popped Zimmerman a good one. Also, Trayvon didn’t have a flashlight. Zimmerman did.
You are reading too much into what this witness is saying.
Looks like she caught a glimpse of when Martin first ran down the back path and then when Zimmerman exited his truck and ran for a few seconds in the same direction. If her version is different than what we hear on the dispatcher tape, then we can be sure she didn’t remember correctly (a common occurrence with witness during quick moving events).
As for what else she is saying, other witness can better attest to about when the fight occurred (and we have the resulting 911 calls) and we know it started somewhere between 1-2 minutes from when the dispatcher call ended. As for the shot, we all already know when that occurred.
She brings nothing new to the table as a witness by reporting those three events which we all know occurred and can be better documented elsewhere.
I agree with your observation completely .StanS
I have lost my personal time line. What a bummer. Do you know exactly how much time elapsed between the end of George’s call and the first 911 call and how much time elapsed before the first officer arrived on the scene.
Have you posted your own complete time line here? I trust your “facts” as I have noticed most of what you have said here. I would love to see that including the “overlap” of DeeDee’s calls if you don’t mind sharing that.
” Do you know exactly how much time elapsed between the end of George’s call and the first 911 call and how much time elapsed before the first officer arrived on the scene. ”
Zimmerman call answered at 7:09:34 PM, Zimmerman closes vehicle door behind him and starts after Martin at 7:11:48 PM, when he responds “OK” to being told they don’t need for him to follow it’s 7:12:04 PM, his louder breathing and the wind/air noise in his cell phone mic abate about 7:12:14 PM, Zimmerman hangs up at 7:13:39 PM, recording of call ends at 7:13:44 PM
Beginning of struggle estimated by many to be around 7:15:30 PM
First 911 call answered at 7:16:11 PM
Gunshot at 7:16:56 PM
First officer on scene reports responding to 1111 Retreat View Circle (that’s the clubhouse) at *approximately* 19:17 hours, which is 7:17 PM for us civilians.
You can see what he said about getting reports from dispatch about shots fired and other addresses on page 3 of 4 here:
Click to access Twin-Lakes-Shooting-Initial-Report.pdf
He actually winds up going to the house on the far side of the shooting site, so figure it’s probably more like 7:18 PM when he actually gets there.
As Susan indicates, working in the times of the young lady’s calls is problematic because of the cell phone company only reporting hours and minutes and rounding times to the next minute.
unitron
Thank you very much. I had mine in columns but this will be easy to sort out and reconstruct. I think I accidentally changed my file name so it’s “hidden” for now.
I do wish Susan would start a thread on the politics of the case
Where does it say flashlight on page 40 and 41?
@hapufern
At the bond hearing, Gilbrath stated at 1:48:09 into the video that the chase the witness described went from near where Trayvon Martin lived to the area where the murder happened (back down the path towards the crime scene).
@StanS
you said:
“Looks like she caught a glimpse of when Martin first ran down the back path and then when Zimmerman exited his truck and ran for a few seconds in the same direction.”
Nope. Zimmerman’s truck was not parked on the walkway behind the townhouses was it? The witness saw the chase take place BEHIND her residence.
CommonSense
Witness first said she saw the chasing figures and a fist fight and heard a shot.
In a later version she saw only a glance, and didn’t have her contacts in.
After all of this has started coming out, most of which was known by the police within a few days of the shooting. I am listening to Sally Kohn saying all they wanted was an arrest and a trial to decide this. That is not Florida law, unless they have probable cause that this IS NOT a self defense shooting then they MAY NOT arrest and destroy someones life for defending themselves. This is there to protect us from the Angela Coreys of the world going on a Hoplophobic Witch Hunt to score points for a re-election campaighn, they can use standard investigation techniques to look into this but they are not allowed to destroy innocent people that are just defending themselves unless they have probable cause. After hearing the Bond Hearing and looking at this evidence that has been released I fully understand why Sanford did not want to violate 776.032, they did not want to be held liable for Malicious Prosecution. If you don’t think this can happen just look at the Duke Lacross rape case, the same people were actively pushing for a prosecution there too. That case ended with Mike Nifong being prosecuted for his handling of that case. Angela Corey, Det. Gilbreath, and Det. O’Steen will be facing the same legal spotloight when this case is over.
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
———-
This primarily for those that ask “Why would anyone want to carry at Target?” there are many stories like this from your favorite retail outlets. The companies involved have a lot of incentive to keep incidents quiet so you usually don’t hear about them on the national news, but if you look for more than a minute on Google you can find them all over the place.
A Dallas man remains in jail after police say he randomly stabbed a shopper inside a Target store.
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Man-Accused-of-Stabbing-Random-Shopper-152116725.html
Call it a hunch but I bet the police didn’t get there until it was over. Of course we could just have 3 psychics telling the police where the crimes are going to happen so they can be there before hand, but I think they only have those in NYC.
I agree with a lot of what you say, including the reason no arrest was made. If I understand the law, the Sanford PD were also concerned about violating George’s civil rights. As I also understand it, Crump had to have an arrest in order to later to file a civil suit because an arrest would not make him immune to a civil suit which opens the door for additional suits. This could be a textbook case about why civil rights laws are so absurd and should be revisited. It is insane that Florida law could exonerate George completely and then Holder could charge him federal crimes. Call it what you wish but is clearly double jeopardy to most of us with common sense.
This is actually not correct if you are referring to Corey.
Witch Hunt to score points for a re-election campaign
Corey was reelected within short order after she took over the case but she was unopposed. I wish someone would start an intelligent discussion about the political aspects of this case, especially Scott’s involvement. Who was involved in his decision? Is there any evidence that Holder was included in the discussions. Were any deals made? Exactly what do they expect from Corey’s absurd decision? What is her rationale ? Are there contingency plans for race riots or any kind of major civil unrest?
None of this makes any sense to me, an average Florida citizen and I just do not see how this could possibly help Scott.
Under 776.032 Immunity, Crump cannot sue civilly unless Zimmerman is found guilty criminally. Sanford PD would not prosecute so Crump could not push a Civil Suit at all. There are a lot of states that although you are cleared for defending yourself, you can still be sued civilly by the family of thugsley that tried to rob you, we put a stop to those types of harassment suits in FL.
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s.943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
As far as Corey herself goes she does not need a re-election as an excuse, she has a long Anti-Gun history I am sure that Gov. Scott knows about. She tries to do everything she can to prosecute people that have dared to use a gun to defend themselves; she just tied a judges hand with Mandatory Minimum Sentencing to send an African American Lady to prison for 20years for trying to defend herself from her ex-boyfriend that is presently floating around the FL newswires. From what I understand the Judge and Jury wanted to just make it a slap on the wrist due to the abusive circumstances but the way the charges were wrote they were forced to give a minimum of 20years.
On a side note if anybody is thinking about carrying in FL here is a link to Gutmacher’s site to order his book, it explains the laws in Legalese and the gives a translation to English of what those laws actually mean so all of us can understand them. He keeps running updates to his book on his website with changes in the laws, or cases that affect your self defense rights in FL.
The Governors part in this does not make sense to me either, he appointed the Stand Your Ground task force with mostly anti-gun people on it. When asked his office said that no pro gun people volunteered, this is patently false. Both Marion Hammer the Former Head of the NRA and driving force behind most of our Second Amendment Protections on FL, and Jon Gutmacher the Orlando Second Amendment Attorney that literally wrote the book that most police forces and Gun Owners in FL use to understand Civilian Gun Laws, publicly volunteered to be on the commission before he announced the members and called him out for the makeup of the commission after he listed the members. Gun rights in FL are not a Republican v Democrat issue like they are in other states; the right to defend yourself is a bipartisan issue we all stand behind. Most of us would like to know what actually happened in and around this case involving the politicians, they have been closed lip so far but this is FL we have very strong Sunshine Laws and any communications about who to appoint as either prosecutor or on the SYG commission will come out.
Stan, I disagree, the chase eye witness places a huge piece to the puzzle because when her testimony is heard in depth, it will likely show that Zimmerman chased Martin North away from his house! This establishes several facts…
– Zimmerman was the initator (got out of car, disregard dispatcher instructions)
– Zimmerman was the pursuer (cut Martin off near his home and chased him back towards the T)
– Zimmerman was the aggressor (Dee Dee’s ear witness of Martin yelling “get off, get off” – this is clearly Martin yelling “get off me!”
– Pure and simple, if there was a chase northward, and Zimmerman’s story to police didn’t include a chase or him being where the eye witness saw them running, the question of ALL of Zimmerman’s story (parts that cannot be corroborated by anyone else) has to be considered self-serving and manufactured. The chase eye witness will provide a compelling argument (although suppositional) that Zimmerman chased down Martin, Martin tried to defend himself, Zimmerman pulls the trigger.
Here is the report of the witness statement, at pages 40-41.
It says there was a “fistfight between them,” not a “flashlight.”
It would be nice to know exactly where this lady lives.
A few things to note about this:
1. The witness didn’t come forward. She was talked to during a canvass of the neighborhood.
2. On being reinterviewed, she said she only saw a “glance” and she didn’t have her contacts in.
3. I think it is a stretch to say that this account, even if true, shows that GZ was preventing TM from going home. Once GZ started to follow TM and lost him, TM had plenty of time to get home.
4. If there was a chase and GZ didn’t tell this to the police, it undermines his case; but I don’t think a jury could conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ murdered TM.
5. Was the direction of the chase reported by the witness of necessity in an opposite direction of where the shooting took place?
-MM
You’re right. It does say fistfight. I am looking at the doc right now.
WRT the direction of the chase, it was away from where Trayvon Martin lived towards the location of the murder. (Bond hearing @ 1:48:09)
Here is what I find interesting about the witness statement:
“she observed two men chasing each other, a fistfight between the two men, and then heard a gunshot.”
What about the words exchanged in the confrontation between them? What about two guys on the ground, one on top of the other? What about the cries for help?
It doesn’t seem consistent with what is known with a fair degree of certainty.
I’d like to know where her townhouse was and also the time period in between the fistfight starting and the shot.
If there was a substantial time period between the fight and the shot then this would be most interesting. Perhaps the witness saw a fight before the final confrontation/fight. If there was not much time between the two then maybe what she saw as a chase was just movement prior to the final confrontation/fight.
-MM
If the prosecution is going to use what this witness saw as proof of a south – north chase (from the direction of the house to the shooting site) I think there will be a problem. There might have been at most a minute from the time GZ got off the call with the dispatcher until the confrontation. While we aren’t sure where GZ was at the time the call ended, he had lost sight of TM and wasn’t running.
So we are supposed to believe that while it’s dark and GZ is potentially afraid that TM is searching for him, he makes it all the way to TM’s house, spots him, and then chases him back, all within a minute? Possible, but not likely.
-MM
“There might have been at most a minute from the time GZ got off the call with the dispatcher until the confrontation.”
Zimmerman hung up on the police at 7:13:39 PM
Most estimates put the struggle beginning at around 7:15:30 PM
The first 911 call came in at 7:16:11 PM
Shot fired at 7:16:56 PM
More like 2 minutes from end of call to start of confrontation/struggle/fight
unitron
Unitron,
The police uses a different timeline for Zimmerman’s phone call, and claim that it is based on an explanation of Seminole County’s computer-aided dispatch system. They claim Zimmerman’s call came at 7:11.
But for this to be true, then the REMarks entered by the dispatcher are given a false time stamp.
“The police uses a different timeline for Zimmerman’s phone call, and claim that it is based on an explanation of Seminole County’s computer-aided dispatch system. They claim Zimmerman’s call came at 7:11.”
Haven’t seen that before. Got a link?
unitron
To walk from where Zimmerman said he was when he called dispatch, takes about 3 minutes. Zimmerman was on the phone with dispatch after leaving his car for almost two minutes and did not return to his car. Presumably, he continued to walk towards the back gate. One minute after the call ended (total of 3 minutes of Zimmerman walk time), the confrontation starts near Trayvon Martin’s back yard.
“To walk from where Zimmerman said he was when he called dispatch, takes about 3 minutes. Zimmerman was on the phone with dispatch after leaving his car for almost two minutes and did not return to his car. Presumably, he continued to walk towards the back gate. One minute after the call ended (total of 3 minutes of Zimmerman walk time), the confrontation starts near Trayvon Martin’s back yard.”
Here’s a thought.
Zimmerman catches up to Trayvon as Trayvon is trying to enter house at which he is staying.
Zimmerman thinks he’s breaking in.
Chase leads from there back north to spot where shot was fired.
Makes it hard to work young lady’s account in, though.
But I wonder if anyone ever searched the area around Brandy Green’s house for stuff Trayvon (or even Zimmerman) might have dropped.
Could there have been a Bluetooth headset in addition to the headphones?
Anybody know if the Samsung Comet can be used like an iPod?
unitron
Probably closer to a minute and a half, but in any event how long would it take for GZ to walk from where he was when the call ended to the back entrance (if that’s where the prosecution is going to claim he was going)?
Zimmerman did a walk through the next day, so I’m interested in knowing where he puts himself when the call ended.
Can anyone tell me why we TM didn’t make it back home according to the prosecution, since according to their star witness he was “right by” the house and didn’t encounter GZ for another 2 minutes?
-MM
Jim,
That’s very interesting. The call is 4 minutes, 17 seconds long. If it came in at 7:11 then it ended at 7:15:17. The shot was at 7:16:56 according to Susan (but is this also off?).
Synchronizing the calls is key.
Did the SPD dispatch use a different system from the 911?
-MM
Apparently, Seminole County uses a centralized dispatch system. Seminole County has 422,000 persons, Sanford 50,000. I’m pretty sure that the dispatcher who handled Zimmerman’s call, also handled one of the 911 calls.
If you look at the event logs that were released for Zimmerman for the past 9 years, they include a municipality code. For example, one newspaper reported that after Zimmerman moved to the neighborhood, he almost immediately started making calls, including one about a bike doing wheelies. The actual report was of a motorbike speeding and doing wheelies and weaving through traffic on I-4 in Altamonte Springs about 20 miles to the south – the report includes cross streets.
The neighborhood is actually on the western edge of Sanford which does not extend beyond I-4, and has some pretty irregular city limits, so a lot of what the 911 operators do is to figure out who to call – and there may be agreements to cross-respond in emergency conditions.
Also, the other calls have a connection time and creation time which corresponds to the first remark. Some of the shortest intervals were when Zimmerman reported an alarm at his house (he apparently has an alarm that will call him). These may be easier to handle, since all the police can do is send someone by. Road hazards are similar. It might be 15 minutes or more before anyone responds, but there is no reason to gather details beyond the location.
I really think that Serino’s timeline is wrong – it is not necessarily the same as would be use the prosecution.
For example, at 2:18 into the call, Zimmerman explains that the other entrance is the back entrance. If the call started at 7:09:34 (the connect time), this would be 7:11:52. The REM for SUBJ NOW RUNNING TOWARD BACK ENTRANCE OF COMPLEX is at 7:11:59.
It is inexplicable that a “computer assisted dispatch” system which would know exactly when the call was made would log remarks typed in by the dispatcher at some other time than the actual time.
It would also mean that the first officer was dispatched at 5 seconds into a non-emergency phone call, before the dispatcher had an address.
There is a disconnect between the T-Mobile timestamps and the SPD timestamps.
See page 171 – Officer Wendy Dorival sent an email to George Zimmerman regarding the NW flyer which Zimmerman replied to seemingly before the email was sent according to the timestamps.
Officer Dorival sent @13:24:03 (1:24:03 pm) and
Zimmerman replied @11:22 am
on the same day (8/31/11).
Zimmerman’s email sig says it was sent via his Blackberry from T-Mobile. Officer Dorival’s email was sent from her sanfordfl.gov email account.
There’s a point of contention I have about the shooting. Supposedly Trayvon was on top and punching Zimmerman. In a scenario like that, (Trayvon) would be straddling Zimmerman on the ground with his knees on both sides of Zimmerman’s waistline. That common position would place Trayvon’s buttocks right on top of Zimmerman’s gun and holster. How was Zimmerman able to get his gun out of his holster under those circumstances? Sounds more like Zimmerman was on top to be able to access his gun to shoot Trayvon. It is entirely possible that both Trayvon and Zimmerman were both upright when the shot was fired… up close and point-blank.
That is assuming the fight was static, Zimmerman down unable to move at all. This is the same reason that Martins hands could be over Zimmermans mouth one second, and Zimmerman yelling help a second later. Zimmerman was trying to move out from under Martin. If Martin discovered the Gun while on top of Zimmerman, he would have to move himself to try to get the gun out from under him. Fights are not static unless the person down in barely conscioous or unconscious. Both parties realised they were fighting for their lives when Martin saw the gun and both parties would have been moving as fast as posible to control the weapon.
According to Zimmerman, Martin saw the gun in his waistband and tried to grab it — i.e., there was a struggle for the gun. It makes perfect sense if you consider that possibility.
If you’re a Zimmerman supporter you don’t want that to be the story as that makes Zimmerman wrong and Trayvon right. To Trayvon some strange man was obsessively following him and when they were face to face he saw that he had a gun…Zimmerman claims he reached for “his phone” and that’s when he was hit…if during the reach Trayvon saw the gun he was justified in hitting him…if Trayvon is justified in hitting him then Zimmerman is guilty.
@Tristan – Not a “supporter” of anyone or anything except the truth. However, I fail to see how this supports Martin. Zimmerman had his weapon concealed in his waistband. According to him, AFTER Martin jumped him and he was on the ground getting pummeled, Martin saw his weapon — makes perfect sense, as his shirt would likely be pulled up, etc., during this process. Once Martin saw the weapon (again, still in his waistband/holster), he went for it. I realize this is all per Zimmerman’s statement, but it all seems quite plausible from what we know at this time.
As a side note, part of CHL protocol is that the weapon must remain concealed unless threatened, etc. It seems absolutely absurd to think that Zimmerman would call the police and then pull out his weapon to chase Martin down (as many have suggested online).
But according to him Martin was on top of him pounding him relentlessly…at what point did he decide “hey let me look down in the dark at this man who I’m beating to hell’s waist band” ?
Do you know how hard it is to keep someone incapacitated? Exactly how strong or weak do you think a 158lb Martin and Zimmerman were respectively?
” …makes perfect sense, as his shirt would likely be pulled up, etc., during this process…”
And yet it’s perfectly tucked in when he gets out of the police car.
Did he have time to tidy himself up before Officer Smith slapped the cuffs on him?
unitron
“at what point did he decide “hey let me look down in the dark at this man who I’m beating to hell’s waist band” ?
Do you know how hard it is to keep someone incapacitated? Exactly how strong or weak do you think a 158lb Martin and Zimmerman were respectively?”
I know that we have a desire to know exactly what happened, down to the minute details. However, that will never happen. The question is this — is Zimmerman’s story plausible and is it reasonable? So far, I would have to say yes, even though I will never know exactly what happened night.
I would have to say no…why would Trayvon run away, stay on the phone, and ask a question if his sole goal was to beat the ever loving shit out of Zimmerman?
His story is possible…but not all too plausible. The idea of Martin for no reason randomly attacking Zimmerman without provocation is as plausible as Zimmerman running after Martin with the gun drawn.
I think more than one possibility is plausible — which is actually the point. For the state to get a conviction, they have to get a jury to believe that Zimmerman’s scenario is very unlikely. Not that another scenario is more likely, but almost to the point Zimmerman’s version could not have happened (i.e., that it is not reasonable). Again, so far the evidence that we know does not seem to support that.
I already don’t believe the state has enough (based on what’s been revealed) for a conviction…MAYBE a minor manslaughter conviction but definitely not murder 2.
I just don’t buy Zimmerman’s story.
I knew Casey Anthony was gonna walk but I didn’t believe a word of what she said.
I do not appreciate the lynch mob mentality that is prevalent in regards to this case, I want him to get his fair trial, but I’m still free to formulate my own opinion on the matter.
@Tristan — Agree with you completely concerning the trial in the media and the desire for a fair trail. I also agree you have the right to formulate your own opinion. My desire is for the justice system to work as it should, whatever the outcome.
Tristan,
I posted a video of a mixed martial arts fight from YouTube above (search the page for ‘mixed martial arts’). When I first heard Zimmerman’s version of the fight, I immediately thought of MMA and the common “ground and pound” tactic used. Later on, one of the witnesses who saw the fight also described it as like an MMA bout.
The fighters in the video are in Martin’s ‘weight class’ (middle-weight). There are many similar videos posted on YouTube so you can see how much damage can be inflicted in seconds using “ground and pound” … even with a referee and a relatively soft ‘fight mat’.
From the video (and others), you can get an idea of the movements of the fighters. In the video, the person on the bottom pulled his head into the chest of the fighter on top (a defensive technique Zimmerman wouldn’t have known of), yet he was still knocked out in seconds.
Regarding the pulling out of the gun, It would likely be pulled from the top of the holster, so even if, for a few seconds, Martin’s weight was fully on Zimmerman’s hips (see the video for typical movements), the gun could still be pulled out from the top of the holster.
What I find interesting is the issue of the fixing of the exact time of the dispatcher’s call. At this point, Zimmerman’s attorney has to be very careful because the prosecutor and police might be able to fudge those times to somehow prove that the timing of Zimmerman’s reenactment is off. On the other hand, if Zimmerman ‘timing’ is slightly ‘off’ that can easily — and correctly — be attributed to the stress and quickness of the incident.
Also remember, the later the dispatcher call started (from what we have been using), the less time for any ‘chase’ to have occurred between the dispatcher hangup and the time of the fight.
One more quick point regarding the gun and the fight for it. That element is not essential to Zimmerman self-defense claim. His goal is to show he was if fear of grave bodily harm or his life. And that has to be disproved beyond a reasonable doubt.
Quite frankly, I think anyone who is familiar with the damage that can inflicted on a person in seconds based on the position Zimmerman was in, would have a hard time saying Zimmerman (with or without the ‘reaching for gun’ scenario) did not reasonably fear grave bodily harm (or death) when he quickly reacted.
One overlooked factor is that Zimmerman only fired a single shot. He had plenty of opportunity to continue firing but only did so for the instant he was in great fear (and remember, there is an actual eyewitness who saw Martin pounding on Zimmerman) and as soon as the pressure abated, he did not fire again but instead tried to physically act in his defense. That is a very powerful indicator for self-defense and only acting with a minimum use of the gun.
As a last thought, looking at the new pictures of Zimmerman right after the shooting, I can say that I have seen many losing fighters in MMA and boxing bouts who looked much better than Zimmerman did in those pictures. Zimmerman had a broken nose, two black eyes, and contusions on his face and the back of his head was visibly banged up, cut and bleeding. The flawed theory seems to be that for Zimmerman to use a self-defense claim, he had to have a concussion or have been semi knocked out. That flawed theory defeats the purpose of self-defense because he would most likely not have had the facilities to defend himself in the first place.
“… Zimmerman had a broken nose, two black eyes, and contusions on his face and the back of his head was visibly banged up, cut and bleeding.”
Really, you see black eyes in the pictures the police took after getting into the station that night?
I’ve got worse dark circles under my eyes from chronic sinus problems.
Now the next day would be a different story. By then he could have looked like a raccoon.
(hey, maybe he was complaining about the eff’ing raccoons getting into people’s garbage cans as he observed them while behind the houses)
Interesting how prisitine his hands look in those close-up pictures of them.
unitron
Considering Officer Timothy Smith’s observation about the wet grass on the back of Zimmerman’s jacket he must have been on the ground at some point, but what I’m wondering, especially considering the close-up photos of Zimmerman’s very undamaged looking hands, is while Trayvon is straddling Zimmerman gettin’ all Bruce Lee on him, why isn’t George pounding his ribs with his fists or bursting his eardrums with his flat palms or trying to gouge his eyes out? He could have used both hands to bust the elbow of the arm Trayvon had him pinned down with by hitting it above the joint with one hand and below with the other.
What was Zimmerman doing all that time besides allegedly hollering for help and fishing for his gun?
unitron
IAOU, He put his gun back in his holster, where T Smith recovered it. Since he had a CHL, he would have tucked the shirt in automatically.
Smith could have retucked the shirt in. It is the polite and professional thing to do after sticking your hands in someone’s pants.
I am curious. Is there any mention of THC residue on or in the hoodie? There was a lighter in Martin’s pockets, indicating a possible intent to smoke something.
When DeeDee was interviewed, there was no attempt ask her about the drug subject, among other subjects avoided that could have helped Zimmerman. This was, of course, because the decision to prosecute Zimmerman had been already made. And it is clear from the interview it was a staged statement to support the case against Zimmerman. Had she been interviewed at the time of the shooting, the tone and extent of the questioning would have been far different.
You said: This was, of course, because the decision to prosecute Zimmerman had been already made.
I have seen similar statements in the past
How do we know the decision had been made PRIOR to this since she is in the charging document?
There were 3 incoming calls after Martin left the 7-11. De La Rionda asked if “DeeDee” and Martin had discussed his mother, and she remembers that Martin was a real momma’s boy. So is this somehow supposed to be used as a character witness for Martin; corroboration for Sybrina Fulton’s voice ID; or was one of the incoming calls from her, and “DeeDee” couldn’t remember all of her cues.
For the CSI fanatics:
This came from the autopsy report:
“Martin’s wound: 17.5 inches below the top of the head, 1 inch to the left of the anterior midline, .5 inches below the nipple. The wound track passes directly from front to back to enter the pleural cavity right into his heart and lung. No exit wound.”
I surmise, though I am sure there will be other opinions, that the straight plane shot to Martin .5″ below his nipple has some implications (dueling experts at trial?)
If both were standing (the consensus seems to be the shot was from about 1″ away due to powder residue) the level of the gun when shot would, on Zimmerman, be lower than .5″ on Zimmerman’s nipple. Adding in the height difference between the two, the shot would have angled upwards, not flat (As an aside, if you look at the 7/11 video, the clerk seem to be about Zimmerman’s size and the size of Martin is considerably taller).
On the other hand, if both were prone and fighting for the gun, it likely could be aligned with the trajectory the autopsy found. That doesn’t say who was on top only that the gun could have been in a position for the flat shot where it occurred. Weighing probabilities, is a flat shot standing up more or less probable than a flat shot from prone positions? I think the latter since there would be less chance of a height variance for the gun when standing and the heights of the two were substantially different.
What do you think?
Holy cow. Are people still speculating that the shot was fired while they were standing up?
Regarding the witness who purportedly saw the South-North ‘chase’. In her first interview she saw events through her sliding glass door. On her re-interview she changed her story to her upper bedroom window, without her contact lens, and only a brief glimpse.
The ‘chase’ could easily have been Martin, after Zimmerman turned and was moving to return to his truck, running up quickly behind Zimmerman to catch him by surprise after he saw Zimmerman was no longer on the phone and had turned away. Both Zimmerman and Martin would have been moving South-North at the time. Martin was most likely behind Zimmerman because Zimmerman was already near the intersection of the paths and Martin initially ran in that direction.
A victim not being on the phone is important to an attacker because the other phone party would not hear an attack and call 911 (or, in this case, could be the police).
Zimmerman never reported he was being chased…sooo why didn’t he?
Zimmerman reported to the police that as he was returning to his truck Martin came up behind him and as Zimmerman was reaching for his phone, his nose was broken, he was down and being attacked (MMA style, as an eyewitness stated). Never had a chance
MMA style? his injuries are no where near consistent with a 30-90 second MMA style beating…his wounds ARE consistent with having been punched and falling and hitting his head. Another thing Zimmerman going for his phone…likely in his jean pocket…would likely reveal the gun…why is it that Trayvon was fine with dialog UNTIL Zimmerman reached for something…why is it that Zimmerman stated Martin went STRAIGHT for his gun after hitting him if Trayvon didn’t see the gun?
If Trayvon jumped directly on Zimmerman after knocking him down and allegedly continued beating on him….how did he see the gun and go for the gun as Zimmerman stated?
If you look at a map of the area of attack, you can see that if Zimmerman had just turned and started walking — as he repeatedly said in his statements — back towards his truck, Martin had to have been moving in at least a jog to catch up to him from between buildings within such a short interval of time.
The witness (who already substantially changed her story) could easily have caught a glimpse of Martin when he was running/jogging to get close to Zimmerman, who’s back was turned from him.
While the “chase” eyewitness did not see who was chasing whom, the fact that she observes the chase will be instrumental in the case. One could argue that it was unarmed kid trayvon chasing armed Zimmerman but logic would say not probably unlikely. I do not believe Zimmerman offered this in his statements so one has to wonder why didn’t he? Even though the lady may have recounted her view point from patio door then upstairs window, that won’t matter because the content of her statement is consistent… at around 7:15 pm, saw man chasing another 10 to 12 feet apart heading “in the direction towards the T.” Her home has to be one of the units south along the scene’s backway courtyard away from the “T” because there is no other position where she could have seen a chase along the walkway towards the T.
Now the issue of timing, Dee Dee’s statement, 911 call end time etc., will be pieced together but
Ace,
Her first statement was that she saw two people chasing, and then saw a fist fight, and then heard a gunshot. Her revised statement was that she had her contacts out and saw a glance of a chase.
She is as reliable as the witness who claimed that she saw a heavyset man with bare arms on top, and couldn’t see what the other person was wearing, let alone their race but knew it was a kid. And in her 911 call reported she had seen someone with a white tee shirt on top. In her 911 call it is something she adds at the last moment as if she remembered seeing something before she had called (her 911 call started before the shot, but the shot was zapped when she gave her address – though I think that maybe they just lowered the amplitude really low, I think you can hear the gunshot).
In her later interview she said that the 911 operator that someone had reported a suspicious person. In the 911 call, she was told that other people had called.
BTW her voice is so high-pitched that the 911 operator asked her age. She is older than Zimmerman.
“In her first interview she saw events through her sliding glass door. On her re-interview she changed her story to her upper bedroom window, without her contact lens, and only a brief glimpse.”
There are some balconies on the upper floor, on some units. There is actually more living space on the upper floor because of the garage on the front of the units, with bedrooms built over the garage. So it might be correct about a sliding glass door.
But her 2nd version does eliminate the fist fight, and adds that she just had a glance and didn’t have her contacts in.
I “saw” an auto accident 50 feet in front of me the other night. It was just past a well lit intersection, and I was at a gas station facing straight toward where the collision happened. After watching the cars separate, some people came running over. I realized I had my gas cap in my hands, and I decided to screw it on first – vague thoughts of a possible explosion or misplacing the gas cap led me to take the extra seconds to screw it on (it clips into the gas cover door when filling). So I must have unclipped it, when I heard something, either brakes or the actual collision happened.
I can remember lots of the aftermath, and try to reconstruct what happened, but I’m convinced now that I did not see it (and nobody was apparently injured, even though my perception was that a car got t-boned at about 30 mph). So maybe I did hear brakes and looked up milliseconds before the collision.
Great analysis. I haven’t been able to read all the comments so i apologize if this has been stated before. Do you think that the reason the police did not get there sooner, It took them forever it seems, is because Zimmerman had called so many times before? Is Trayvon dead because Zimmerman was the boy who cried wolf?
There were about 400 incidents where the police were called to that 265 unit complex, including a shooting, in the previous 12 months. Zimmerman made about 3-4 calls during that time period.
Most of the culprits were young black males. The dispatcher did not even know Zimmerman’s name when he sent out a police car.
It is most likely that Trayvon died because he felt slighted by someone looking at him, and, when he got the opportunity, wanted to teach Zimmerman a lesson … a lesson that tragically backfired.
A key, inescapable fact is that Trayvon, when he first ran after seeing Zimmerman on the phone in his truck, was 20-25 seconds away from Brandy’s apt. Even DeeDee let slip that he, after running, was right at the apt. Instead of simply going in (or calling 911) Martin returned, and when he saw an opportunity after Zimmerman was off the phone and not looking, went after him from behind.
“Do you think that the reason the police did not get there sooner, It took them forever it seems, is because Zimmerman had called so many times before? Is Trayvon dead because Zimmerman was the boy who cried wolf?”
Probably had more to do with Zimmerman calling the non-emergency number at the police station instead of 911 and reporting a guy looking suspicious as opposed to reporting an actual violation of the law in progress, so they’d have sent a car, but he wouldn’t have been running lights and sirens and squealing tires as he took corners at speed with his hubcaps flying off, or any of that TV stuff (where tires squeal on dirt roads).
unitron
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-trayvon-sanford-police-timeline-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino
This is supposed to be a second by second timeline prepared by Serino and shows that the first officer arrived at 1917:40
“http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-trayvon-sanford-police-timeline-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino
This is supposed to be a second by second timeline prepared by Serino and shows that the first officer arrived at 1917:40”
Did he time it out with a sundial?
If the report that Zimmerman’s call started at 7:09:34 PM is accurate, none of those times are right, and if the report of the first 911 call coming in at 7:16:11 PM is accurate, then the time he’s claiming for the gunshot isn’t right either.
And if he has it right, why were all those other, incorrect times reported?
a very puzzled unitron
The dispatch is from Seminole County which has 400,000 person. They aren’t going to remember someone who called less than once per month, when all they did was hand it off to a police officer.
Sanford has 700 or 800 burglaries per year. That is 2 actual burglaries (that are reported) every day. So 4 reports in a year, is nothing – and one of the persons who Zimmerman reported, was later caught after some roofers reported him some days later.
In this case, the two officers that were dispatched arrived in reverse order. TSmith was dispatched after Martin ran, and arrived in 3:45.
The event log for Zimmerman’s call says TSmith arrived at 7:17:11; that he PEU at 7:17:36 (I assume that is Police Exit Unit). Since the dispatch addresses were to the streets facing outward it makes sense that it would take a bit to figure out that it was behind. One of 911 calls apparently sees the car (or flashing lights) in front, and the operator is trying to get the caller to calm down and explain to the operator, so that the operator can tell the officer.
Serino’s timeline would then give Smith 4 seconds to go around the unit and 3 seconds to apprehend Zimmerman.
I think the rest of the timeline is wrong, and is based on calls beginning at Create time and not Connect time.
In looking at the discovery, I noticed a reference to a November 2011 police incident that appears to concern Martin. The details are blacked out. Does anyone know if that was related to the tweet to Martin about Martin’s “swinging on a bus driver”?
You really have to admire Trayvon’s mad leet ninja skillz in luring a man he thought was unarmed into following him on foot into a darkened alley to get a beatdown just by running after walking by the guy’s ride and getting the evil eye from him.
Of course if someone actually saw someone running *just before the fight starts* instead of *2 or 3 minutes before*, that kind of sinks Zimmerman’s “I was ambushed from behind” story.
If Trayvon was a super stealth silent running ninja he would have been an invisible super stealth silent running ninja, so either he wasn’t running or Zimmerman would have heard him running up behind him.
And of course if Zimmerman was the one running just before the fight or both were running just before the fight, no ambush.
I’m also intrigued by the thought of Zimmerman seeing Martin trying to get into the house he was supposed to be in and thinking that Martin was a non-resident trying to break in, especially if he was on patrol earlier and saw Tracy Martin and Brandy Green drive off going out to dinner, even if he didn’t actually know them.
unitron
Mr. Unitron,
So now that DD’s testimony is likely to make the prosecution look likes fools, you are relying on a witness who didn’t have her contacts in and saw only a “glance”?
If she saw what she claimed she saw, it was most likely TM chasing GZ. He doesn’t have to be running like a ninja. Even if GZ’s account he confronted him first, there was an exchange of words, and then a punch. TM isn’t necessarily worried that GZ hears him coming.
-MM
Don’t capitalize me , it tickles. : – )
I went back and double checked, and sure enough, I used the word “if”.
More than once, even.
I haven’t had the chance to cross-exam the witnesses, so I don’t know yet which are how credible, so I’m talking about possible ramifications of “if” their accounts are accurate and how which accounts can or can’t be fitted together with other stuff from the case.
I have no idea if the young lady wil even be called to testify, much less what she would say. What she’s supposedly said so far has been presented in small chunks and not necessarily in chronological order or in context with other stuff, not to mention with the heavy hand of lawyers and networks all over it, so it’s difficult to know how credible it is.
I’m not married to the idea of either party being 100% in the right or 100% in the wrong, especially not to the point of insisting that “such and such” is absolute proof of the despicable or sterling character of either one of them.
I’d really rather get the facts and adjust my opinions and theories accordingly rather than decide I know exactly who’s at fault and try to bend everything that comes along to fit my preconceptions.
I will admit to believing Zimmerman to be gultly of some poor judgement that evening.
If I could actually hear a long recording of Martin on the phone during that same period I might have more definite opinions about him as well.
Now, anybody know anything about lawnmowers?
unitron
Jim,
The chase witness called 911? Which call is it? I find this a little odd since the police report says the came across her while doing a canvass. Wouldn’t they as a routine contact everyone who called 911?
Over at talk left (a left wing criminal defense blog) it is reported that Crump said that TM always had his earbuds in and his phone on the side of his pocket. However, the ear buds were found in his pocket or on the ground. I don’t use an ear piece but doesn’t this make it impossible for TM to hear what is said to him? Doesn’t this blow DD’s claim to be having a discussion with him out of the water? Am I missing something?
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/5/20/6642/30597
-MM
“…it is reported that Crump said that TM always had his earbuds in and his phone on the side of his pocket. However, the ear buds were found in his pocket or on the ground…”
Police report says found on ground near body.
Problem is, there wasn’t anything for them to plug into except his Samsung Comet cell phone, a model with which I admit unfamiliarity (just like almost every other one these days).
Does it do double duty as a music player, like an iPhone?
Were those particular headphones, in combination with that particular phone, capable of also serving as bone conduction microphones?
Or is there a Bluetooth headset lying in the grass somewhere else in the neighborhood?
Perspiring minds want to know.
unitron
I don’t think the “chase” witness did a 911 call. Her first interview was after a “re-canvass” on 3/1 and a followup on 3/9. One of the officer reports says they were told to canvass the area inside the police tapes.
There are 5 homes in the building to the west, and 6 in the building to the east, and 7 911 calls. The end units do have a balcony over their patio, with sliding glass doors. The patios on the other units extend out from the back of the units (not the full width) with the cover over the patio being the floor or a room above. These might be bathrooms, since there is a single window. So the bedrooms with wider windows are set back maybe 4-5 feet, and you are going to blocked from seeing very far north or south.
By the time you get to next units south, you are going to be having pretty oblique views of 100 feet in the dark, and it would have to be from the bathroom, or you go out onto your patio.
There might be an OK view out the the back of the units north of the T. These would be direct, but distance is going to be a problem, about 80 feet.
The re-canvass might have covered a larger area, looking for people who might have seen something before the fight.
On page 17, the headphones were found in close proximity to the body.
When he is in the store Martin appears to be touching around his upper chest throat area. Is there a cell pocket up there? A couple of times he puts his fist up around his mouth. It might be to cover a cough, but maybe so he could mumble something to “DeeDee”.
Zimmerman’s phone is not in the evidence, though there is one item that belongs to Zimmerman, and is otherwise not disclosed. Are there self-incrimination protections for cell phones? There is also a skip in the evidence marker numbers.
The paramedic report (p 182) estimated Martin to be 20 years old. It states:
Pt #2 is an approx. 20 y/o male
That takes into account that the paramedic had a good opportunity to closely look at Martin. Zimmerman’s look was in darkness and when he was quickly attacked.
Looking at the 7/11 video and the size comparison between Martin and the 7/11 store clerk (who looks to be about the same size and weight as Zimmerman), Martin is noticeably taller. And with his ‘hoodie’ up, Martin can easily pass for someone in his 20’s and he looks bulkier than even his 158 lbs would indicate.
The reality is that the ‘hoodie’ look among teenagers is to project an air of ‘menace’ (regardless of actions), so Zimmerman was seeing that projection, as intended, when he approached from behind, confronted and then quickly attacked by Martin.
There has been much discussion about DeeDee’s “testimony,” which, in my opinion, is largely worthless except for two slip-ups she made in her orchestrated/rehearsed police statement. Those slip-ups can fall in the general legal category of ‘admissions against interest.” That type statement is one that acts against the interest of the person saying them so they are presumed to have more weight (or validity) and could be a hearsay exception. She said two interesting things:
1) That Martin, after running, was right near Brandy’s apt — which we know was about 20-25 seconds running time; and
2) That Martin said the crazy guy [Zimmerman] was “in trouble.” We can assume that wasn’t Martin’s psychoanalytic opinion of Zimmerman (the “crazy” guy was that opinion). Significantly, the word “trouble” was the exact same word Zimmerman said Martin said just before he was attacked. He said that Zimmerman was “in trouble.” The meaning of Martin’s use of the word ‘trouble’ can be presumed to be that Zimmerman was about to be hurt in some way and that is the word Martin used with DeeDee also after arriving near Brandy’s apt.
To correct a typo, obviously, I meant:
“The reality is that the ‘hoodie’ look among teenagers is to project an air of ‘menace’ (regardless of actions), so Zimmerman was seeing that projection, as intended, when he was approached from behind, confronted and then quickly attacked by Martin.”
“the ‘hoodie’ look among teenagers is to project an air of ‘menace’ ”
Or, as so often the case with teenagers, the “hoodie look” is teenagers expressing their individuality by wearing what all of the other teenagers are wearing.
unitron
So hoodies aren’t for warmth and comfort, it’s to intimidate people?
So when I walked downtown today and see all the HS kids (white kids and Asian kids) wearing hoodies it’s because they attempt to menace me and not because it’s kinda chilly today and raining like it was that night?
“So when I walked downtown today and see all the HS kids (white kids and Asian kids) wearing hoodies it’s because they attempt to menace me…”
Of course not.
If they were black kids though, then the only possible explanation is an intent to intimidate and instill fear.
(HTML really needs a sarcasm tag)
unitron
This is from a site identifying gang signs and symbols:
“They also like ‘hoodies’ [sweat shirts with a built in hood] because they can conceal their identity more easily and appear more menacing to outsiders when they pull the hood over their heads.”
http://people.missouristate.edu/michaelcarlie/what_i_learned_about/gangs/graffiti_and_other_identifiers.htm
My point was that, like any other sign that can be interpreted as both innocuous or has otherwise been adopted for a more intimidating purpose, hoodies fall into that category. Hoodie marches are held will not change that perception.
Yes, Geraldo Rivera’s comment was appropriate in its insight into the reaction of normal persons when they have a symbol linked to menace and gangs thrust in front of them; they can experience fear — which many times is the wearer’s intended effect — and act more defensively, regardless of the real intent of the wearer.
Martin, whether intended or not, projected at the time of the confrontation, through his concealed face and his dress of a dark hoodie at night, a persona that persons could easily interpret as gang and violence related and thereby generate a more defensive reaction.
Trayvon Martin’s height according to the autopsy report is 5’9″. Mark Zuckerberg, one of the facebook founders notoriously wears a hoodie. Why is it ok for jewish people to wear hoodies, but when black teens wear them, images of criminals are invoked in some people? Do monks look menacing to you? Does FaceBook founder Mark Zuckerberg look menacing to you, too?
Hoodies don’t kill people. Vigilantes with guns kill people.
You may like this but it’s a matter of public perception. I will not go into details but, if you are honest, you will figure that out. You are trying to use YOUR form of logic but. sorry but that is just the way it is. Whether you agree or not it is reality just like gang members adorn themselves with distinctive items that others could also use and would mean nothing.
Two last points. The autopsy says Martin’s height was 71 inches (so he wasn’t 5’9″). However, that was after rigor mortis set in (which contracts muscles and could have affected height). Martin’s mother said he was 6’3″.
Also, I assure you, Martin was not shot because he was wearing a dark hoodie that was concealing his face. He was shot because he came up behind Zimmerman, after Zimmerman had gotten off the phone, confronted Zimmerman and viciously attacked him for looking at Martin the wrong way earlier.
DeeDee AND Zimmerman both said Martin said to them that Zimmerman was “in trouble.” DeeDee says she was told that at about the time Martin reached Brandy’s apt after first running. But instead of going in, Martin turned back to get to the attack site. Zimmerman used the exact same words in his statement as to what Martin told him just before he was attacked. That is why he was shot, not for wearing a hoodie.
We will probably never know if the hoodie alone was the reason Zimmerman called the dispatcher but, likely not because Martin was acting as though he might have been high and was hanging around buildings in the complex (there are surveillance photos showing him there) — reasons enough to have a police officer at least see if there is yet another problem in a complex plagued with crime. The dispatcher, based on what Zimmerman reported to him, made the decision to send out a police car, not Zimmerman.
Strangely, some of Zimmerman’s critics are now complaining that it was Zimmerman’s fault for NOT calling 911 so the police could have arrived sooner.
Zimmerman was uncertain of Martin’s race, because he couldn’t get a clear look at his face. There is no evidence that Zimmerman thought that Martin was suspicious because of his clothing or race.
Zimmerman described accurately what Martin was wearing, and then when he was closer, added additional details confirming that he was black, that he had a button, and after being asked about his age, said late teens. The EMT who was trying to revive him said he looked 20.
That brings to mind what George said at the bond hearing about Martin’s age.
71 inches is 5’11.
Why did “DeeDee” say that Martin put his hoodie on (other than it was also dripping at the time).
@jimrtex and StanS
Woops! My bad. I knew that he was 5’11. Sorry for the mistyping. My point was only that if that is correct, the media reports are maybe off by a few inches.
I read elsewhere that George Zimmerman was a toy-sized midget and Trayvon Martin was Jolly the Green Giant towering over Zimmerman with a reach indicative of Trayvon Martin’s ability to hold George Zimmerman out in front of him with one hand while munching Skittles as Zimmerman swings wildly into the air never reaching the Giant.