[Update, 7/5/13: For updated material concerning the ongoing trial of George Zimmerman, please see more recent posts concerning the undisputed facts at the conclusion of the prosecution’s case, the significance of Selene Bahadoor’s testimony, and Zimmerman’s inability to explain how he fell backwards but ended up 40 feet forward.]
[Update, 4/15/12: For an analysis of the criminal laws implicated by this case, please see my follow-up post on the specific criminal charges brought against George Zimmerman, and his available statutory defenses.]
[Update, 4/29/12: Having finally looked at a longer copy of the phone records for Trayvon Martin’s phone, I’ve revised portions of the timeline to reflect the new information contained there. However, I now believe that the T-Mobile call logs are hopelessly unreliable for giving call times with any accuracy more than + 59 seconds. I did some rough experiments with my own phone, since my cell plan is also through T-Mobile, and it appears to me that the recorded times on T-Mobile statements are not at all exact, and can be as much as 59 seconds off from the actual time at which a call was made. Calls were wrongly recorded both as occurring later and sooner than from when they were actually made, so the error isn’t due to T-Mobile’s clock being fast or slow — the times are just off.]
[Update, 5/28/12: Lot of new information has been released while I was out of town. Working now on going through it all and updating the timeline with the information obtained from the new docs.]
[Update, 7/20/12: This timeline of events has been superseded by the release of a great deal of discovery that was unavailable at the time that it was constructed. The time stamps on the various phone calls still stand, obviously, but some of the interpretations of that data have to be changed in light of the additional evidence.]
I wanted to write a more in depth post the death of Trayvon Martin and the possible criminal charges arising from it, but when trying to figure out how strong Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense might be, I got frustrated by the lack of any in-depth, detailed time lines of the events leading up to and immediately following Trayvon’s death. In order to get a better idea of what exactly happened, I’ve laid out here a chronology of the shooting based on (1) call logs of the calls to 911 and the police made that night; (2) recordings of the calls themselves; and (3) the police report and surveillance video that have been made available to the public.
The records show that less than ten minutes passed from Zimmerman’s first sighting of Trayvon, to Zimmerman’s shooting of Trayvon as they wrestled in a neighborhood walkway between houses. Where possible, I’ve included the times of events down to the second, but some events and phone calls were only recorded by the minute, making some guess work necessary.
To start with, I’ve put together a quick diagram of some of the relevant locations that are referenced in the post. (Thanks for the image, Xie!)
- Call Log for Zimmerman’s Calls to Police Dispatch
- Released Police Report & Other Evidence
- State’s Motion for Protective Order (5/24/2012)
- Crimes scene photos and photos of subjects released by police
Timeline of Events
6:22:08pm: Surveillance footage of the 7-Eleven near the Retreat View neighborhood shows Trayvon entering the store.
6:24:33pm: Trayvon buys a canned drink and a bag of candy, and departs the store. The clerk puts it in a brown plastic bag. That bag will later be found strewn near where Trayvon is shot.
6:54pm: Trayvon makes a call to “DeeDee,” a minor female that has been reported as his girlfriend. He is using a headset, walking home on his way back from the store after grabbing a snack and a drink, and he has been on the phone with DeeDee since he left there. According to DeeDee, it begins to rain, and he takes shelter at one of the buildings in the townhouse complex, while the two continue to chat. The referenced building is possibly the awning marked in purple on the above image.
7:04pm: An unknown individual makes a call to Trayvon while Trayvon is still talking to DeeDee. Unlike both Trayvon and DeeDee, this individual is not using a phone on a T-Mobile phone plan. Trayvon apparently puts DeeDee on hold, and then answers the new call in order to speak briefly to the new caller. This conversation lasts anywhere between 1 second and 59 seconds. After, Trayvon switches his call back to DeeDee. This phone call between DeeDee and Trayvon is recorded as having a duration of 18 minutes — which means from connection to termination, it was somewhere between 17 min, 0 seconds and 17 min, 59 seconds. Although the T-Mobile call times are imprecise, it would appear the call is disconnected at around 7:12pm.
7:09:34 pm: Zimmerman, in his truck, spots Trayvon. He calls the non-emergency dispatch number for the police, and the call log records his call as connecting with dispatch at 7:09:34pm. [Note: Relevant log begins on page 46.] He reports a suspicious black male in neighborhood. An recording of Zimmerman’s police call can be found here. Zimmerman states “The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.” Zimmerman meant to say 1111 Retreat View Circle. It appears that Trayvon is around the clubhouse when Zimmerman’s call to police begins, at the intersection of Retreat View and Twin Trees. This is consistent with DeeDee’s claims that Trayvon was hanging out under a complex building to take shelter from the rain.
7:10:16pm: Forty-five seconds after the phone call begins, Zimmerman reports that Trayvon is “here now,” indicating possibly that Trayvon was moving while Zimmerman was not. It’s possible Zimmerman’s car was parked at all times during his phone call to the police.
- Zimmerman: “He’s here now … he’s just staring.”
7:10:20pm: Zimmerman’s phone call to police indicates that at this time, Trayvon becomes aware of the fact that Zimmerman is watching him. The two stare at one another, and Trayvon keeps walking.
- Zimmerman: “Now he’s staring at me.”
7:10:22 – 7:10:35 pm:
- Dispatch: “OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?”
- Zimmerman: “That’s the clubhouse.”
- Dispatch: “He’s near the clubhouse now?”
- Zimmerman: “Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.”
It seems almost certain that Zimmerman was on Twin Trees Ln. at this point, since Trayvon’s path started at the clubhouse at the intersection of Retreat View and Twin Trees, and was heading towards the cut-through (circled in blue, above). It seems plausible that Zimmerman has been sitting in his parked truck, somewhere at the area marked in green in the image below, for the entire first half of his call to police. While watching from his truck, he sees Trayvon leaving the awning (marked in purple) and walking towards the cut-through, which means Trayvon’s path would’ve gone right past the car. Trayvon apparently noticed Zimmerman as he approaches, and keeps on walking.
This possible scenario, however, doesn’t completely fit with the timing from the call with DeeDee, which seems to indicate that Trayvon felt that he was being followed by someone at a time that would seem to be before Zimmerman exits the car — implying that Zimmerman may have been slowly following Trayvon while driving. My guess, though, is that the time stamps for T-Mobile’s call records and for the 911 logs are slightly off from one another, which explains any discrepancy between the two time lines.
7:11:14 pm: At this point, Trayvon appears to have walked past Zimmerman truck, possibly heading towards the cut through, where he would shortly be out of sight of Zimmerman.
- Zimmerman: “These assholes. They always get away. … When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse.”
- Dispatcher: “OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?”
- Zimmerman: “Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.
7:11:42 – 7:11:48pm: There is the sound of a car door opening at this point, immediately after Zimmerman says “he’s running,” and Zimmerman starts huffing; wind noises can be heard, and Zimmerman sounds slightly breathless. Zimmerman is able to see Trayvon plainly enough at this point to determine his direction, and believes he is going for the back entrance:
- Zimmerman: “Shit, he’s running.”
- Dispatcher: “He’s running? Which way is he running?”
- Zimmerman: “Down toward the other [back] entrance of the neighborhood.”
The house where Trayvon is staying is directly between Trayvon’s approximate location at this time and the back entrance to the complex; Trayvon is probably actually running for his house. However, because both the house and the back entrance are to the southeast corner, there are two possible routes that Zimmerman could have seen Trayvon take off towards: (1) Trayvon stays on Twin Trees Ln., bolting south down the road; or (2) Trayvon runs for the cut-through, heading east, so that he can then turn and head south either on Retreat View or through the sidewalk between the rows of houses. Because Zimmerman’s reaction to Trayvon running is to get out of his car, it seems that scenario 2 is more likely — Zimmerman can’t follow in his car, he has to go on foot.
Approx. 7:12pm [+ or – 59 seconds off of 7:12pm, from the time as recorded by Zimmerman’s call to police. Exact time unknown]: The original phone call that Trayvon made to Dee, which lasted 18 minutes, is disconnected. Almost immediately after that phone call ends, DeeDee calls Trayvon back. He answers, and DeeDee reports that he says to her, “I think this dude is following me.” She says that she tells him “Run!” and that Trayvon responded that he’s not going to run, he’s just going to walk fast.
The timing is close enough to suggest, but not perfect enough to say for sure, that when Zimmerman reports that “[Trayvon’s] running,” it’s at the same time as when DeeDee advised him to do just that. If so, it’s possible Trayvon was not telling the complete truth when he told her was just going to “walk fast,” perhaps to seem braver, but in reality had started running. Alternatively, Trayvon really did only start to “walk fast,” but Zimmerman, clearly worried about yet another asshole getting away, interprets this as “running” in his call to dispatch.
7:12:08 pm: After conversation about Zimmerman’s contact details, Zimmerman states to the dispatcher, “he ran.” From the general context, it seems that Zimmerman has now lost sight of Trayvon. The running/wind noises on the recording also cease abruptly at this point, and Zimmerman’s voice evens out. If this is the case, then Zimmerman has stopped his on-foot, running pursuit of Trayvon approximately 20 seconds after he began.
- Dispatcher: “Alright, where are you going to meet with [police] at?”
- Zimmerman: “Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck.”
I’m unclear where the mailboxes Zimmerman refers to are, but it appears from Google street view that they could be in the awning that Trayvon’s girlfriend says he took shelter in from the rain. If so, however, it’s hard to understand why police would “make a left and then go past the mailboxes.” But it makes more sense than anything else I can find, so it’s possible Zimmerman just misspoke again.
7:12:59: Zimmerman states that his truck is parked at “a cut-through” so he doesn’t know the address. The cut-through is the blue-circled area in the image, so Zimmerman’s truck is presumably in the vicinity of the green circled area. It may have been parked here from the very beginning of his call to police.
7:13:14pm: Zimmerman has lost Trayvon. He doesn’t want to say his address out loud because “I don’t know where this kid is.” Nine seconds later, Zimmerman tells dispatcher to have police call him when they arrive rather than meet at specific place, indicating that Zimmerman plans to keep moving, and doesn’t know where exactly he’ll be when police arrive.
7:13:41pm: Zimmerman’s phone call with dispatch ends.
7:14pm: There is approximately a one minute, thirty second period for which we have very little information about what occurred, from around 17:14:00 until 17:15:30. Zimmerman apparently keeps searching for Trayvon during this time period, and phone records show that Trayvon is still on the phone with DeeDee. Also during this period of time, neither party moves particularly far from their estimated locations at 7:13:00pm; it appears that they were either (1) walking extremely slowly, (2) had stopped somewhere before resuming movement, or (3) were taking non-direct paths. It’s possible that Trayvon, like Zimmerman when he refused to give his house number out, was worried about the stalker following him home and figuring out where he lived, so Trayvon did not run straight back, instead feinting one way before looping back around. Another possibility is that Trayvon, thinking he’d lost Zimmerman, was dawdling on his walk back home in order to finish his phone call with DeeDee — possibly because Trayvon, like most 17 year olds, generally prefers to have his phone calls with his significant other out of ear shot of his parents. The other two possibilities are that (1) Trayvon bolted on a pathway in the wrong direction from his house, in order to escape Zimmerman, after Trayvon initially started running/walked fast; he was then making his way back to his correct route when he encountered Zimmerman again; or (2) Trayvon, still on the phone with DeeDee, had in fact managed to start running on a direct path towards home, but decides to loop back to find Zimmerman again, in order to start a fight with the guy who dared to follow him.
Some small, extremely circumstantial evidence to suggest why Zimmerman may have been expecting Trayvon to run out the back entrance, and why Zimmerman may have tried to cut Trayvon off from going in that direction, comes from the police call logs. We know from Zimmerman’s previous calls to police that he had on at least two prior occasions called in to report that suspicious black males were hanging around the “back entrance” of the housing complex. (See pgs. 39-40 of the police dispatch logs.) On both those occasions, as with the call he made about Trayvon, Zimmerman stated that he believed the person he was watching had committed recent break ins in the neighborhood. On the two prior occasions, Zimmerman reported that the suspicious persons were at or headings towards the back entrance, and on one occasion, Zimmerman advised dispatch that the “subjects will run into the subdivision next to this complex,” and advised that law enforcement enter through the back entrance to meet him. It seems possible that if Zimmerman was going to follow Trayvon and lost him, his assumption would be Trayvon would be heading in that direction.
Approx. 7:15:30 – 7:15:45pm: Zimmerman and Trayvon encounter each other for the final time, in the area circled in red in the diagram above. At this point, all evidence from eye witnesses and police reports indicates that a fight between the two began and ended there, and that the parties did not substantially change position during the course of the struggle. Reports on the exact location of Trayvon’s body have varied, but it has been established it was somewhere in the grass in the row between the houses, closer to the north side than the south..
There are a half dozen different versions of how the altercation between Zimmerman and Trayvon occurred and what happened during the course of it.
7:15 – 7:16pm, DeeDee’s version of events: Trayvon tells DeeDee that he thinks he has lost the dude that was following him. DeeDee then hears voices, as if Trayvon and his pursuer have run into each other again. She says something like the following exchanged occurred between the two individuals:
- Trayvon: “Why are you following me?”
- Zimmerman: “What are you doing here?”
At that point, it sounds to DeeDee as if one party shoves the other. DeeDee thinks she hears Trayvon’s headset fall off, and the phone call cuts out at approximately 7:16pm, four minutes after it starts. It is my suspicion that the T-Mobile records are about 30 seconds slower than the time kept by the police dispatch’s clock– which would mean that the phone call started at 7:11:30, and ended at 7:15:30, a timeline that would mean that DeeDee’s description of events pretty much precisely matches up with the times as recorded by various 911 and police calls, down to the second. If her phone call with Trayvon instead ended at 7:16 on the police department’s clock, then the first 911 call from a neighbor came in 11 seconds or less after the fight initially started — that doesn’t seems plausible.
7:15 – 7:16pm, Zimmerman’s version of events: Zimmerman has not given an “official” version of his story, and the versions that have been reported by other sources are somewhat inconsistent, with some of the versions being extremely implausible. One initial report alleges that the confrontation began while Zimmerman was still in his truck, and that Trayvon approached the parked truck to ask Zimmerman why he was following him. Zimmerman “rolled down his window” to say he wasn’t, and Trayvon left, only for the fight to later occur on the cut through. This story has not been repeated since, and if Zimmerman really did initially give this version of events, he’s not sticking with it any longer.
The most consistent report that is alleged to be Zimmerman’s version of the encounter provides roughly the following: Zimmerman had gotten out of his car to check on an address, to tell police where to go. [This itself makes little sense — Zimmerman’s car was in front of the houses, where house addresses are visible and displayed, whereas behind the houses there are only porches and no visible addresses.] Zimmerman was then “returning to his truck,” [although still 150 ft. away, if his truck is in fact parked in the green circled area] but Trayvon approached Zimmerman from behind and confronted him. Either Trayvon (somehow) reaches around from behind to sucker punch Zimmerman in the nose, or else the two have a verbal confrontation and turn to face each other before the first punch is thrown. Zimmerman falls to the ground, and Trayvon jumps on him, punching Zimmerman and slamming his head into concrete. Zimmerman eventually is able to pull his handgun free from its holster and fires once at Trayvon, who is pinning him down. Trayvon is hit in the chest and dies.
7:15 – 7:16pm, Trayvon’s father’s recounting of how police described Zimmerman’s initial report to them:
- Trayvon: appears from behind a building, approaches Zimmerman, and says, “What’s your problem, homie?”
- Zimmerman: “I don’t have a problem.”
- Trayvon: “You do now.” He then punches Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground, pinning him down.
- Trayvon: tells Zimmerman, “Shut the fuck up.”
- Zimmerman: while being beaten by Trayvon, pulls his gun and fires one shot at close range into Trayvon’s chest.
- Trayvon: “You got me.” Falls over, dead.
7:15 – 7:16pm, Zimmerman’s father’s version of events: Zimmerman is walking along the sidewalk (area circled in red?) in order to “find an address.”
- Trayvon: walks up to Zimmerman, says, “Do you have a fucking problem?”
- Zimmerman: “No, I don’t have a problem.” Zimmerman starts to reach for his cell phone to call police, but Trayvon punches him in the nose. Zimmerman’s nose is broken and he is knocked to the concrete.
- Trayvon: gets on top of Zimmerman and punches him repeatedly. While punching Zimmerman on the ground below him, Trayvon sees Zimmerman’s gun.
- Trayvon: “You’re going to die tonight.”
- Zimmerman: draws his pistol while on the ground, and shoots Trayvon once in the chest.
7:15 – 7:16pm, Zimmerman’s brother’s version of events: Zimmerman’s brother states that Zimmerman was not patrolling the neighborhood; rather, he was driving to Target when he noticed a suspicious looking person in his gated community, and called the police to report it. Zimmerman’s brother alleges that Zimmerman stopped following Trayvon when the police dispatcher told him to. Zimmerman then then lost sight of Trayvon, and about a minute later, the following occurs:
- Trayvon: sneaks up on Zimmerman.
- Zimmerman: tries to grab his phone to call 911 and intends to say to police “Well, this person who I lost sight of and was not pursuing has now confronted me.” Zimmerman is unable to complete this call because Trayvon broke his nose with a punch, and began slamming Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk.
- Trayvon: sees Zimmerman’s gun and tries to grab it.
- Trayvon: says to Zimmerman either (1) “You die tonight,” or possibly (2) “You have a piece, you die tonight.”
- Zimmerman: screams for help, but then grabs gun and shoots Trayvon when Trayvon tries to muscle it away.
Zimmerman’s brother adds in that there is a witness that saw what happened, “from the first blow.” The brother does not explain why this witness did not help Zimmerman, who he is, or why he was around to see the fight in the first place.
7:15 – 7:16pm, version of events attributed to “Zimmerman’s parents”: An unidentified female neighbor and friend reports that Zimmerman’s parents are strongly maintaining that the shooting was in self-defense: “What [Zimmerman’s parents] told us is that he was reaching for his cell phone and Trayvon Martin saw his gun and reached for the gun and there was a struggle.” This story is somewhat reminiscent of Zimmerman’s brother’s story, regarding Zimmerman going for a phone, which ignited the physical struggle.
7:15 – 7:16pm, unidentified law enforcement official’s version of events: The Daily Beast quotes an unidentified individual with the Sanford Police Department who is not involved in the case but apparently had some exposure to the investigation. According to him, Zimmerman’s statement to police was that after losing track of Trayvon, Zimmerman “went around a townhouse to see where he was.” This supports two things: first, that Zimmerman was actively hunting for Trayvon at the time of the altercation, and second, that Zimmerman was not following the sidewalk routes, but ducking through gaps in houses. This is possible support for the theory that Zimmerman unexpectedly cut off Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk routes. It also puts the “Trayvon was in hiding waiting to attack Zimmerman” theory in doubt, because it’s not clear how Trayvon’s could have anticipated Zimmerman’s unusual path.
The law enforcement official also reports that Zimmerman’s story is that Martin confronted him, and then knocked him to the ground with a punch. Zimmerman then said that “when he was on the ground, Martin straddled him, striking him, and then tried to smother him.” This ‘smothering’ claim is a new detail that has not been repeated before, and it’s somewhat confusing. If Trayvon was in fact on top of Zimmerman, perhaps Zimmerman interpreted the weight on his chest as an attempt to “smother” him, but the idea that any attacker in Trayvon’s situation would try and use “smothering” as an attack does not make much sense. The law enforcement official’s report goes on to state that:
Zimmerman claimed that he yelled for help, and that various neighbors who peered out to see the fight from their backyards didn’t get involved. Zimmerman… told officers he was so paralyzed by fear that he initially forgot he had a gun, but he said that after Martin noticed his 9mm pistol, Zimmerman pulled it out of his belt holder and fired one round, a hollow-point—the round that killed Martin.
Zimmerman also told police that, after being shot, Trayvon’s last words were “Okay, you got it, okay, you got it,” and then Trayvon turned and fell face-down on the ground. Although these words sounds similar to what Trayvon’s dad were told his last words were — i.e., “you got me” — even assuming Zimmerman is telling the truth as he knows it, my assumption is that he misheard Trayvon. Someone seconds from death from a hollow point bullet wound to the chest is not going to be enunciating clearly or making dramatic statements. The more likely scenario is that Trayvon said something like “you shot me… you shot me,” in disbelief and shock.
Finally, the last new information from the Daily Beast’s source is that “Zimmerman told police he didn’t realize that Martin was seriously injured, and that he lunged to get on top of him after the teenager fell to the ground.” This would seem to match one of the 911 caller’s statements to the 911 dispatcher which, although confused, reported seeing Zimmerman on top of Trayvon after the shooting. Although it should have been obvious that a point blank shot to the chest with a hollow point bullet is going to be a serious wound all of the time and a fatal wound most of the time, it is believable that, with the adrenaline pumping, Zimmerman wasn’t thinking clearly. However, this is also another indication that Zimmerman’s subjective interpretation of events should be treated with cautious skepticism — Zimmerman was plainly not thinking completely logically or coherently, if he thought the bullet to the chest was not a “serious injury.” The fact Zimmerman thought it necessary to try and restrain Trayvon and “lunge to get on top of him” after shooting the kid in the chest shows Zimmerman’s threat detection systems were on overload,.
7:16:11 pm: The first of six 911 calls is made by a neighbor whose house is immediately adjacent to where the shooting occurred. A high pitched, desperate male voice can be heard yelling “help” repeatedly, from the very beginning of the phone call, and continues on for some time — there are occasional pauses, and occasional nonsensical yells, but for the most part the voice is consistently yelling “help” “help” “help” over and over again.
7:16:56 pm: Forty-five seconds into the first 911 call, a gunshot is heard. The last cry of “hel-” seems to be cut off simultaneously with the shot. Assuming that the first 911 caller took at least 15 seconds to hear sounds of fighting, recognize what it was, and pull out a phone to make a 911 call, this means that the physical struggle between Zimmerman and Trayvon went on for a minimum of one minute. The first 911 caller was still quick on the draw, however, and is unlikely to have taken more than 30 seconds to make the call. This gives a maximum fight duration of perhaps a minute and a half. Estimate time of the fight’s beginning is therefore 7:15:35 – 7:15:55pm.
7:17:55 pm (estimated): By around 17:17:55 – 17:18:07pm, several 911 callers report seeing a “man with a flashlight” outside, followed by a second flash light approximately one minute, fifteen seconds later. These are almost certainly Officers Smith and Ayala, who were first on the scene.
Officer Smith, the first officer to arrive, parks his car at 2821 Retreat View Circle. Officer Smith has been dispatched to respond to police calls made by Zimmerman twice before in recent weeks, once on January 29, 2012, and once again on February 6, 2012. He likely has encountered and spoken to Zimmerman before, although this has not been officially confirmed. Per the police report of the incident, when he arrives on scene on the night of February 26, a few seconds before 7:18pm, he cuts through the houses on the Retreat View side of the walkway, and into the area circled in red. He sees Zimmerman walking around and Trayvon lying “face down in the grass.” Zimmerman states to Smith that he shot the individual on the ground, and that he was still armed. Smith immediately moves to remove the gun, and observes that Zimmerman has a wet back and appears to be covered in grass, “as if he had been laying on his back on the ground.” He observes blood on the back of Zimmerman’s head, and on his nose. He removes from Zimmerman’s “waist band” the handgun and holster — it is not clear if the handgun is in the holster, or if both the holster and handgun are tucked into the waistband. He puts Zimmerman in the back of his squad car.
Officer Ayala arrives about a minute after Officer Smith, and observes Trayvon laying face down. His police report indicates that he observed that Trayvon “had his hands underneath his body.” Ayala begins emergency response treatment, but Trayvon never becomes responsive. He will be pronounced dead 11 minutes later.
The later-released police reports state that when Officers Raimondo and Ayala approached Trayvon’s body to attempt first aid, Trayvon “was lying on his stomach with his head oriented in the general direction of north.” In contrast, Officer Santiago, who arrives later on the scene, reports that Trayvon’s head “to the west.” It’s unclear if Trayvon’s head was actually oriented northwest, and both officers are right, or if Trayvon was rotated during the course of CPR.
Photos of the crime scene seem to show Trayvon’s body laying in the grass approx. 5-6 feet from the sidewalk. Trayvon was rolled over by police when they attempted to give first aid, so it’s possible he was originally laid out approx. 4-5 feet from the sidewalk. Either way, it does bring Zimmerman’s “head being bashed into concrete” story into doubt.
At autopsy, Trayvon’s cause of death is determined to be a single gunshot to the chest, which struck Tayvon’s heart and a lung, “1/2 inch below the nipple.” The direction of the gunshot is reported as “directly from front to back,” and was shot from “an intermediate distance.” The only other injury reported to Trayvon is 1/4″ by 1/8″ inch small abrasion to the left fourth finger.
The ME report also states that “Witnesses observed the two fighting in the yard and then the resident fired a handgun at the male striking him In the chest. The male fell to the ground.” It would appear the ME was given incomplete or inaccurate information regarding how the shooting took place, which was then incorporated into the report.
7:19pm: An unidentified civilian described only as “the photographer” takes a picture of the back of Zimmerman’s head. ABC News reports that file details show it was taken on location “three minutes after the shooting[,]” although the exact time is not specified. The photograph clearly shows the blood that was reported by Officer Smith, and it appears that the blood is coming from a wound on Zimmerman’s head, and did not originate from another source. This photo is useful in that it eliminates all outlier possibilities regarding Zimmerman’s head wound — that is, we can rule out the possibilities that either no wound existed, or that the wound was so great that, as Zimmerman’s brother reported, his head was a bloody pulp — but it is impossible to tell from this picture alone the exact extent of the wound. There isn’t enough blood for there to have been a serious gash, but for head injuries, a gash is going to be a far less serious problem than are non-visible internal injuries. On the other hand, the SFD’s actions, in treating Zimmerman’s injuries, do not indicate that they any apparent concern for a brain injury of any type.
The wound is also very high up on Zimmerman’s head. I’m not entirely sure what to make of that — I think the wound pretty much has to have originated from Zimmerman’s head contacting the ground, but it’s not where I would expect it if it came from either a fall or from a deliberate attempt to smack someone’s head into the ground.
The ABC News “photographer” also states that gunpowder marks were clearly visible on Martin’s hooded sweatshirt. Using my CSI training, a.k.a., by doing some quick google research, gunpowder residue will be somewhat apparent on a target that was shot from a range of around three feet or less, but heavy concentrations show up at shooting ranges of under 12 inches. If the gunpowder marks were clearly visible on gray fabric, in night time viewing conditions, then I think it is a fair assumption that Zimmerman shot Trayvon from a distance of 12 inches or less.
7:22pm, onwards: Zimmerman is taken into custody and cuffed by Officer Smith shortly before Officer Ayala arrives. As Ayala is giving CPR to Trayvon, Smith puts Zimmerman in the back of the police cruiser. Zimmerman receives first aid from the Sanford Fire Department while sitting in the back of Officer Smith’s car. At some point, Zimmerman announces, unasked, “I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me.” No questioning is performed at this time, and he is transported to the police station.
Police appear to have immediately accepted Zimmerman’s version of events. When one witness/911 caller gave a statement to police about an hour later, she started crying and stated she wished she could have helped. The officer responds, “If it makes you feel any better, the cries for help were not the person that died.” It’s clear that the police poisoned the witness statements by instructing the witnesses as to details they had not witnessed or did not know themselves, which likely contributed to the recent witness reversals and contradictions in testimony.
While performing first aid on Trayvon, Officer Raimondo finds a “large, cold can” of Arizona drink in Trayvon’s hoodie pocket. Officer Santiago reported that a cell phone was found “near the area of Martin”, but does not give precise details. The packet of skittles are also located in the hoodie pocket, and have traces of blood on them.
Investigators at the scene also find a key chain with a Honda remote key on it, which reportedly belongs to Zimmerman, near the “T” junction of the pathway between the houses. The key chain has a small silver flashlight-key chain attached to it, and the flashlight has been reported as still being on when police located it, suggesting Zimmerman was using it at the time of the altercation.
There is also a black flashlight found ~30 feet from the Honda key chain, closer to Trayvon’s body; this black flashlight had blood residue on it. I’ve seen the 6″ black flashlight described as belonging to Zimmerman, but I have seen no confirming reports for this. The black flashlight is also described as a “tactical” flashlight that could be used as a weapon; this may suggest it came from a responding police officer rather than Zimmerman, but the proximity to the keys could suggest it was Zimmerman’s, and dropped along with the keys when the confrontation started.
If the flashlight belongs to the police, the blood evidence found on it is insignificant and easily explainable. If it belongs to Zimmerman, however, it is a somewhat incongruous finding, as the flashlight if several feet away from where the “main” physical altercation is reported to have taken place, and is at least 10 feet away from where Trayvon was shot. If Zimmerman simply dropped the flashlight and keys before the fight started, there would not be blood on the flashlight — this possibly suggests that Zimmerman was still holding the tactical flashlight when he received the injury to his nose. But if so, why did Zimmerman not use it to defend himself against Trayvon? The tactical flashlight was Zimmerman’s, and during Zimmerman’s non-emergency call, you can hear him banging it to try and turn it on. Zimmerman seems to have had it in his hands during the altercation, but Zimmerman’s recounting of the fight is unclear about how he managed to carry it with him throughout the fight.
Although the keychain flashlight/Honda keys were found closer to the sidewalk on the “T” than was the tactical flashlight and the body, the shell casing from the shot that killed Trayvon is found ~40 feet from the “T”, and several feet away from the sidewalk. It appears to be located close to where Trayvon’s body ultimately ended up, but this is difficult to confirm from the released photos. above his head and slightly to the left.
The shell casing is marked by the yellow arrow, just left to the #6 marker. The #7 marker is Trayvon’s phone, while the #5 marker is the black tactical flashlight.
7:52pm: Time stamp on start of surveillance video of Sanford police department showing Zimmerman’s arrival in squad car. Zimmerman’s shirt is neatly tucked in, and he is moving without any apparent impediment beyond the handcuffs. Police allow him to move freely, aside from the cuffs. There is no visible blood, and police officers use no protective equipment; they can be observed inspecting Zimmerman, as well as manually handling him as they look him over. One policeman touches Zimmerman, and then wipes his hand off on his trousers. A small head wound on the upper back portion of Zimmerman’s head may be visible.
Photos taken before the blood was cleaned up from Zimmerman’s scalp show blood draining in small rivulets down his skull, rather than gushing. It may be significant that the rivulets uniformly tend to drain towards Zimmerman’s face, which means whenever Zimmerman was bleeding, his head was facing towards the ground. It is unclear when this bleeding occurred, however.
Back at the station, Zimmerman gave his story to police at least three times before being released. Police say his story remained consistent throughout, although we have not been provided with the precise contours of what that story consisted of. Zimmerman also made at least one of those statements while being video recorded.
Notes and Observations about the Timeline
In no particular order, here are some assorted observations about what implications the above timeline has on Trayvon Martin’s death.
The eye witness reports should not be relied upon. It was dark, there was bad weather, it was a brief and frantic fight, and no one knows what they saw. Eye witnesses get things wrong even under the best of viewing conditions, and the conditions at the time of Trayvon’s death were anything but that, in terms of expected reliability of witness recall. The 911 calls are themselves full of real-time descriptions from witnesses to the immediate aftermath of the shooting — and even when describing what they were seeing at the exact same time as they were seeing it, their descriptions do not match reality. One witness, for instance, describes that “there is a black male standing over” the deceased victim after the shooting had occurred, which is obviously an incorrect description of the scene. Another witness describing the fight states that “the guy on top has a white t-shirt” — an article of clothing which neither Zimmerman nor Trayvon were wearing at the time. (Zimmerman’s t-shirt was gray, but it was under a red (orange) jacket. Trayvon’s hoodie was gray as well, but it was long sleeved and not a t-shirt.)
In short, the witnesses can prove next to nothing about what happened here. The recordings of the 911 calls that they made, on the other hand, are far more useful in piecing together what happened.
[Update, 5/28/12: By now, at least five witnesses have been reported as changing their stories. This is unsurprising, particularly as it has become clear that the police who took the witness statements improperly coached and/or unintentionally tampered with the witness’s recollections, by telling them facts and events they could not know in order to “correct” or “clarify” their testimony. In short, it has become even more clear that no definitive conclusions should be drawn about any of the events in this cases on the basis of eyewitness testimony alone.]
Zimmerman’s testimony is not being publicly disclosed, but will be an important source of impeachment evidence at trial. The State’s 5/24/12 Motion for Protective Order revealed a key element of the State’s case: Zimmerman’s statements to the police have been inconsistent, and are not fully supported by the available physical and eye witness evidence: “Defendant (Zimmerman) has provided law enforcement with numerous statements, some of which are contradictory, and are inconsistent with the physical evidence and statements of witnesses”. At this point we don’t know what Zimmerman’s version of the story is, but it looks like there’s at least more than one version he has been telling police, and it has some holes in it.
The crime scene does not support Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon was pounding his head into the sidewalk. Trayvon was unarmed. Perhaps to make up for this fact, Zimmerman’s claim for why he was in imminent fear of death or grave bodily harm — and therefore why Zimmerman was allowed to kill Trayvon in self-defense — is that Trayvon was pounding his head into the concrete sidewalk. Although there is a sidewalk running through the middle of where the shooting occurred, the claim that Zimmerman’s head was being bashed into it does not make sense, because: (1) Zimmerman’s back had grass on it. Assuming that Zimmerman and Trayvon encountered each other while on the sidewalk, how could Zimmerman have fallen so that his legs and back were off the sidewalk, while his head was still on it? (2) Zimmerman was a bouncer for illegal house parties; during the course of a 1 minute long fight with a kid thirty pounds lighter than him, there is no possible explanation for how Zimmerman was able to move enough to get his back and legs onto grass, but not his head. In order to pound someone’s head into the ground while they are pinned down, you would literally have to pull their head up with one hand and before shoving it down again — and a one-armed pin is far easier to break. If you are pinning someone down with both arms, there is no way for you to repeatedly slam their head down, short of physically picking them up by the shoulders (while you’re sitting on their waist). (3) Trayvon’s body was found face down in the grass, with his arms underneath him. According to his father, Trayvon’s legs were on the sidewalk, while his head and torso were perpendicular to the sidewalk, on the grass. If Trayvon was shot in the chest while pinning/punching Zimmerman on the ground, his body would presumably have crumpled down to where it was found — which was in the grass, and not on the sidewalk. If Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned, face to face, how did his head ultimately come to be far away from the sidewalk, if just before he was shot he was pounding Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk?
How Zimmerman got out from underneath Trayvon after shooting him, without rolling Trayvon onto his back, is another mystery. It also contradicts at least one report of what Zimmerman said happened, which is that Trayvon “fell back” saying “you got me” after the shooting. The best explanation for how Trayvon’s body was found that I can think of is that Trayvon, after being shot, fell on his back, or was pushed off of Zimmerman onto his back/side. Zimmerman, who witnesses have described as “standing over” the victim immediately after the shooting, then turns Trayvon onto his stomach, perhaps to check for an exit wound or in a clumsy attempt to see if he was still alive. This would plausibly cause at least one of Trayvon’s arms to be pinned under his body, and possibly the second. Or perhaps only one arm was pinned under Trayvon’s body, and Officer Ayala did not correctly see the positioning of the second arm.
Voice analysis of the first 911 call will be the single most important factor in this case. Listening to the first 911 call, it is painfully clear that whoever can be heard shouting for help is in imminent fear for their life. This isn’t the scream of someone in a wrestling match — it’s the wild, animal panic of someone who believes that they are about to die. If the voice shouting “help” is in fact Zimmerman’s, then, whether or not such a fear was objectively reasonable, his subjective fear that Trayvon was about to kill him would appear to be entirely genuine.
However, if the voice is in fact Zimmerman’s, then it also shows that Zimmerman was in control enough of the fight to have the breath to scream and plead for help, and that his shouts for “help” were not cut off by Trayvon “slamming” his head into the sidewalk. It is not the scream of someone “nearly unconscious,” as Zimmerman’s brother and father have alleged. And, whether it was Trayvon or Zimmerman screaming, the mere existence of the screams is inconsistent with the verbal exchange between the two as recounted by Zimmerman. No one is yelling “time to die” or “you got me” — they are yelling “help,” and nothing else.
This brings into question Zimmerman’s statement, while being given first aid in the back of the squad car, that “I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me.” First, this slightly contradicts the claims given by both Zimmerman’s father and brother, which is that a more coherent conversation was going on. Second, Zimmerman would have every motivation to make this claim. If it was Trayvon yelling for help, Zimmerman would have known that neighbors in the nearby houses were likely to have heard it. He would have known he would need to explain the existence of the calls for help, and that, if it were known it was Trayvon screaming, it would look very bad for him.
But Zimmerman probably would not have considered the possibility his fight with Trayvon had been recorded in the background of a 911 call — the odds were against someone being that fast on the draw with their phone. So Zimmerman would not have had any reason to think it likely that his claims that it was him yelling for help, and not Trayvon, could be credibly challenged. It seemed like a completely safe — and completely necessary — claim at the time that he made it, but, if proven to be false, that statement could ultimately damn him by showing he was aware that what he had done was wrong and that he needed to lie to protect himself.
Zimmerman was in handcuffs less than 1.5 minutes after he killed Trayvon. In the police surveillance footage of Zimmerman arriving at the police station a half hour after Trayvon was killed, Zimmerman is shown being frisked and lead to an interview room. There is no sign of blood on him, although a possible wound on the upper back portion of his head may exist. Perhaps the oddest part of the surveillance video, however, is that Zimmerman’s shirt is tucked in, there are no visible scuff marks on his clothes, and nothing appears out of place. Zimmerman received cursory medical treatment while sitting in a squad car, hands cuffed behind him. The SFD likely dabbed up some blood, but they certainly didn’t tuck Zimmerman’s shirt in for him.
So, in the 90 seconds between shooting Trayvon and Officer Smith’s arrival on the scene, at which point Zimmerman was immediately handcuffed, did Zimmerman actually bother to nicely tuck his shirt in again? Or did Zimmerman’s shirt manage to stay perfectly tucked in for a one minute period while Zimmerman was punched to the ground and pinned down by someone who was on top of him in a fight?
Neither option is particularly plausible, especially combined with the absence of any blood or plain wounds. Zimmerman’s story is severely lacking in corroborating physical evidence — and if there were still photos taken of Zimmerman to support his claim that he was beaten up, why hasn’t someone leaked them by now? Or the medical records for the ‘broken nose’? The photo of Zimmerman showing blood on his face is not blood from a broken nose, but rather blood from two tiny cuts on the very point of Zimmerman’s nose — likely a result of kickback from Zimmerman firing the weapon, as no blood (or other DNA from Zimmerman) was found anywhere on Trayvon.
It’s likely that Zimmerman did in fact suffer a bump to his head, and maybe his nose, during the initial struggle with Trayvon. Zimmerman did hit the ground at some point, and Trayvon and Zimmerman were wrestling with one another for at least a minute. It’d be surprising if Zimmerman hadn’t picked up a bump or two from the tussle. But nothing about this indicates the injuries were anything but minor. My guess is that Zimmerman, in trying to explain his actions, took whatever reasons he could to claim he was in danger — and thus the bloody nose becomes a broken one in his re-telling, and a grazing would on his head that he got when he fell down becomes someone bashing his head into the sidewalk.
NICE ANALYSIS! First, why do refer to one by his first name and the other by his last name. Just curious. I’m sure there are plenty of photos of Zimmerman’s injuries, which should be released after April 10th. Plus the ME/toxicology report should be very interesting. We don’t know if GZ’s jacket was zipped up during the attack. It was cold and rainy that night. (My theory is that GZ said ‘f*ing cold’ when he left the car – certainly not coons, LOL). We don’t know if his shirt was removed for evidence at the scene. He could have always tucked in his undershirt when/if he took off his shirt. I’m sure that will be clarified. Dee Dee’s testimony is weak because of obvious bias and it took so long for her to be interviewed. Plus, she never told anyone about the call until TM noticed her number on a phone bill 3 weels later. The Martin’s lawyers claim she is a minor and she is traumatized. Too freaked out for an interview to aid in the investigation of your dead boyfriend? Nancy Grace and I think that smells fishy. Also, the police report states the officer overheard GZ say he was yelling for help while his wounds were being addressed by SFD, We don’t know if he was asked or having a conversation with the medic. The officer merely overheard it. The body was found much closer to the interecting sidewalk than the drawing indicates – behind the second unit’s porch. GZ’s brother stated that the altercation began on the sidewalk which would make sense and GZ tried to pull himself to the grass to avoid his head getting slammed anymore. Cement can crush a skull ya know – it smarts. Concussions are internal. They don’t necessarily show up on the outside. The report did say he was bleeding from his nose and head. The medic likely put a plug in his nose since he was in handcuffs and could not wipe it. That police officer was not looking at a baby bruise on the ack of his skull. It was probably a beauty. And remember swelling is not immediate. Ever have an operation? Day 2 is the worst day. Obviousy the resolution and focus of the cameras are poor. They’re not designed for detail. Even the facial features are very fuzzy. We’re treating the video like a Zabruder film just because there hasn’t been very much visual evidence released so far. They’re trying to preserve the integrity of the evidence until the Grand Jury review. Then we’ll see what they got….
Thanks. And I’ve used Trayvon’s first name because he is a minor victim of either a crime or an unnecessary killing — minor victims and witnesses are typically identified by their first names in the media.
A few points in response to your comment–
1) I strongly doubt there are any photos, there has been next to no indication that such evidence exists. The shoddy police investigation damaged Zimmerman too, if he’s actually innocent — those photos ought to have been taken immediately.
2) Why would the tox report be interesting? There is no indication that Trayvon was on drugs that night, or that he ever did drugs beyond possible marijuana use. Even if Trayvon had recently smoked marijuana, how does that justify Zimmerman’s decision to stalk him down?
3) Zimmerman’s jacket was likely not zipped up. He had about a minute after the shooting before he was cuffed, so he likely didn’t have time to be messing with it. It’s possible the SFD who did first aid decided to unzip it for some reason, but I can’t think of why. He did not change shirts or clothes between the shooting and the surveillance video, he is wearing exactly what the police reported him to be wearing when they arrived on scene.
4) How on earth is DeeDee’s tesimony “weak” and full of “obvious bias,” but Zimmerman’s brother’s testimony is somehow reliable and unbiased? What the heck? That makes no sense whatsoever. And the fact DeeDee was not interviewed sooner is because the police screwed up — the phone logs clearly showed she was on the phone with him at those times, they should’ve interviewed her within a day or two of the shooting. She did in fact tell people about the phone call, and when she found she was the last person to speak to him, she was apparently so distraught she was hospitalized. Her testimony is also largely consistent with the more believable parts of Zimmerman’s version of events, so I don’t understand why it is somehow viewed as threatening. If DeeDee was going to lie to support Trayvon, why the hell would she say she only heard a few uncertain lines of conversation before the phone went dead? Why not say “I heard a man attack Trayvon out of nowhere and say ‘I’m going to kill you now!'” or something more incriminating of Zimmerman?
5) If Zimmerman was pinned down by Trayvon, how was he able to pull his legs and torso onto the grass — the parts of him that were actually pinned and had someone on top holding them down — but his head still remained over the sidewalk? Also, how do you bash someone’s head into the sidewalk while you have them pinned, when that person outweighs you and is putting up a fight? Can’t be done. His head might bump the sidewalk as they are rolling about in a fight, but there is no way Trayvon would be able to purposefully “slam” his head into anything and still have enough arms free to keep him pinned.
1) your strong doubt about no photos was wrong.
2) THC in his system. As to your question NO smoking dope doesn’t give GZ the right to kill, But feeling your life is in danger during a beat down does.
4) DeeDee was hospitalized? last time I heard she purgered herself about being in the hospital the day of TM funeral. As well GZ brother isnt a witness. He is just paraphrasing what GZ told police.
5) I tend to believe GZ head was on the side/corner of the sidewalk not the top. flat part. As well you can still pin someone down and have your hands free. Its called leverage.
Gee, I wish I was clever enough to come along over a year later with the benefit of hindsight and subsequently released information to try to act superior to the original poster.
Holy cow, unitron, imagine seeing you here. I got an email which is why I checked this out.
Yeah, I got the new post notification email as well, and it turned out to be someone with nothing worthwhile to warrant reviving a moribund thread.
So nothing new here. Even the iced tea has not changed. I would think by now they would at least realize how absurd it would be to call the cops BEFORE you are get ready to commit a murder. NOBODY does that. Two minutes and 30 seconds, more or less, transpired between the time George ended his conversation with Sean until Martin got what he “deserved.”
“You got me,” Mr. Martin said and that ended his aspirations to be either an astronaut or a thug. But then. .. but then. . but then.. and along came the scheme team whose mission was to turn blacks against whites and vice versa in order to fabricate the “civil rights trial of the century.” Oh, and did I mention to once again steal more of my hard earned money by his well known blackmail tactics developed in cooperation with none other than our own Attorney General, Ms,. Pam Bondi a fake Republican now exposed to be another Benedict Arnold. And that was before she joined forces with Angela Corey to buy more black votes and pay monetary tribute for black attorneys who race to criminalize innocent white folks. What a tragedy endorsed by the POTUS and the chief law officer of the land. Geezh. I never seriously considered their skin color as being significant but guess what? Birds of a feather still flock together. Maybe a few more folks will now notice how natural and instinctive that really is. I still do not what is a racist is but I am now led to believe it’s anyone who says they are not. Really.. what a strange word that can be twisted to mean anything you want and get away with it. What a rant..
Like I said, no point in reviving a year old thread.
Exactly but I wanted to end with some truth, which was always scarce here.
A shortage of information early on is not the same as deliberate falsehoods and neither are differing interpretations of what information there is available.
One of Zimmerman’s family members stated he was one blow away from wearing diapers the rest of his life and was barely conscious. If that is the case, of course a concussion is not only likely but probably, as are the possibilities for other injuries. Yet, he received only basic first aid in the back seat of a police car. He did not go the to hospital for evaluation or exams or treatment for such prior to being seen briskly walking unaided through the police station. Also, if they did pack his nose, since he was handcuffed, why is that not noticeable on the police video? And I would think a bloody nose would have resulted in even a spot of blood on his shirt. I doubt he had anything to wipe it with at the scene. As someone who has had a lot of nosebleeds, I believe once he stood up gravity would have taken over, and the blood likely would have dripped on his clothes.
Actually, where convenient, Susan uses “Martin” intentionally to obscure the more common association “Trayvon”. Susan shows deliberate and easy-to-identify bias in her accounting of the events and her use of language is definitely intentional. While most people lack this level of skill, have no doubt that Susan Simpson is a master of it. There are 229 instances of “Martin” (now 231) and some are the result of direct quotes while some involve a first name. It can only be assumed that the use of this reference for Trayvon was intentional where it helped to convey or support her belief in this story.
Susan, I have been searching for days for a detailed timeline/summary like this. thank you, this is well done and I believe factually accurate to this case.
It IS great and I’ve been searching for the same- sure leaves another one in the dust- darn, forgot its name but it is well-known. THANKS,SUSAN!!- Vicki Smith
Yeah…this is great!!! love it
Would have been better if was less bias and correct.
Sedric someone should do forensics on the tactical flashlight found at the scence which I believe may have been used by Zimmerman as the weapon to damge his nose and also the back of his head as an attempt to cover his cold blooded murder of Travon.
Whatcha smokin’ up there?
I will not dignify you with a response idiot because 1. I dont smoke 2.Get a lfe!!
I’ll say it again for you…Get a life
“7:13:14pm: Zimmerman has lost Trayvon. He doesn’t want to say his address out loud because “I don’t know where this kid is.” Nine seconds later, Zimmerman tells dispatcher to have police call him when they arrive rather than meet at specific place, indicating that Zimmerman plans to keep moving, and doesn’t know where exactly he’ll be when police arrive.”
You’ve taken this out of context. It was the dispatcher who initiated the whole discussion whether Zimmerman wanted to meet with the officer. Otherwise, the officer would have driven around the subdivision a few times and reported that the suspicious person who had been reported running for the back gate 5 minutes ago was long gone – unless he just happened to see Martin.
When Zimmerman said he did want to meet, the dispatcher asked him where. This is where Zimmerman tried to explain where he was at (for the second time). It is unlikely that Zimmerman was just describing where he was at, so a suitable meeting point elsewhere could be arranged. When Zimmerman got to the point of describing where his truck was at, the dispatcher interrupted and asked for the address his truck was parked in front of (it also sounds like Zimmerman continued to give directions beyond his truck, but this was underneath the dispatcher’s voice). The dispatcher got side tracked, asking whether Zimmerman lived in the area (ie whether he was familiar enough with the area to specify a meeting location). After Zimmerman say he is from the area, the dispatcher asks for his apartment number and then his address. The dispatcher is trying to find an address which he can dispatch to (the dispatch to 1111 Retreat View was almost 2 minutes earlier).
It is the dispatcher who suggests the mailboxes. He’d hear Zimmerman mention the mailboxes a couple of times, and he was trying to get a fixed location. If you check the log of the call, it is logged as a REM before it happened in the call. So unless the recording was edited, or the log modified, he was anticipating the meeting location just before, or as he asked Zimmerman.
After Zimmerman thought a few seconds, he realized that was not a good location. He would have to walk to his truck and then drive to the mailboxes – or walk past his truck to the mailboxes. When the dispatcher first asked Zimmerman where he wanted to meet, he started to describe where he was at.
It is your fantasy that Zimmerman wanted to keep moving in search of Martin, and that is why he wanted the officer to call him. Much more plausible was that he had been unable to get the dispatcher to understand where he was at, and he thought he could explain to an officer who was in his car and could follow instructions once he was there. If the officer called from the gate, he could be told to go straight and then turn where he could see the truck, and then explain where the cut through was.
“where I am at” simply means “where I am at”
There is no reason to interpolate as “where I am at, when the police officer finally gets here”
So Zimmerman intended to keep standing exactly where he was — no longer in his truck, at a random location in the dark, with a kid he deems “suspicious” walking around nearby? When his truck is a 30 second walk away, and an obvious place for the cops to find him?
If Zimmerman did not want to follow Trayvon, he could have arranged an easy, agreed upon meeting location — such as the mailbox. Zimmerman rejects this idea. This means that either (1) Zimmerman wants to stand around at a random location, out of his truck, on the cut through, at an admittedly confusing location to try and convey over the phone, and wait to try and describe to police where he is once they arrive, rather than agree to meet them at a much more convenient rendezvous point, because for some reason he’d rather describe this random location to an arriving police officer rather than someone he’s been on the phone with for 4 minutes, or (2) Zimmerman did not intend to stay put until the police arrived, so describing his current coordinates to the dispatcher would not help. Option 2 is more logical. Option 1 is possible, but it means Zimmerman is an idiot.
If you believe, despite the sounds of the car door opening and the walking/wind noises, that Zimmerman was still in his car when this conversation happened, then how did he end up at the location where he killed Trayvon, unless he was trying to pursue him?
And Zimmerman was standing in the rain trying to give directions to where he was. During the interrogation with Det Serino, he asked Zimmerman why was he standing in the rain a minute and 20 seconds on the phone, getting wet
According to the weather maps for the day in Florida, it was a bright sunny day, and overcast the next day. Kind of strange that the weather report didn’t indicate rain, that you can’t hear the rain in any of the calls, it wasn’t included in any of the testimony other than the girl, and nobody takes the rain into account regarding the lack of blood on Zimmerman. Also, it’s not uncommon for someone to try to get themselves together after an altercation like that when facing the police. Not everyone is as forward-thinking as Juicy Somoliet where he kept the supposed noose around his neck well into the police interview back at his house while having cocktails. But still, he was a security guard and he had just feared for his life. Of course, he is going to straighten himself up before his boss or the authorities show up.
We now know according to GZ testimony that he walked to the front of the building to get a building address. See where speculation gets you?
We’ve known from the beginning that was his story.
It also makes zero sense, because he walked right past the address numbers to get to the T. And then, when the police dispatcher asked him where he was, he didn’t have an address to give him, showing that his story about getting an address was bullshit.
I am just not hearing heavy breathing. Wind yes. It does sound like a door shut before George is asked if he is following him. George could have already stopped got out of truck to get a better look before the call to police. Then he gets in truck calls police. Shuts door before following Trayvon. George was concerned they always get away and mentions trayvon is heading toward back gate. George could have drove toward back gate,stopped and then ended call to police because he wanted to get out of truck. At this point Trayvon could have switched directions..George would have had time to drive back to clubhouse ,get out of truck again and went between buildings. You still would hear the wind sound after George is told to stop because in George’s mind he is not following ,but just keeping tabs on Trayvon and making sure he can not escape out the back gate without him knowing about it.
Well, I’m not sure how that would qualify as “not following” Trayvon — that scenario sounds exactly like someone trying to hunt down a person, not someone who is trying to stay out of the person’s way. Your scenario isn’t impossible, but it’s pretty complex and there is no external evidence I am aware of to suggest that so much driving around occurred. Zimmerman gives location markers at points all throughout his call, and none of them indicate he is anywhere but in the areas shown on the image in the post.
Also you’re right, I should clarify the call doesn’t clearly have “heavy breathing” by itself, but Zimmerman’s tone of voice and speech seems consistent with someone who is trying to speak while moving somewhere quickly, not someone sedentary.
Even if he was following him, so what? It isn’t against the law to follow someone in a public place. If he had his gun drawn, yes it would have been illegal, but that does not seem to be the case. Zimmerman isn’t stupid & knows brandishing a weapon is illegal in & of itself. EMT or Paramedic would have had him sign off on going to a Hospital & that is SOP to protect the EMT in case of complications resulting from the injuries. If Trayvon assaulted Zimmerman for any reason other than Zimmerman trying to restrain him, he was the aggressor, not Zimmerman. You keep saying stalking. Following someone is not stalking unless it has happened more than once. If it was done on two or
three occasions, depending on the State, it may be deemed stalking. Stalking means many different things to different people. Following someone not familiar in your neighborhood at a distance is not stalking. The DA is going to find it very difficult to prosecute Zimmerman for second degree murder, as the charge doesn’t fit the evidence.
Even Criminal Defense as well as other prosecutors also confirm it will be extremely hard to make the charge stick. I’m not sure if it will go to a Grand Jury, but having served on one more than once, I know reasonable doubt will probably weigh heavily in a decision. I may be wrong, but my experience tells me he will walk & probably on reasonable doubt as the reason.
View this on youtube…it might help
Zimmerman was not at a random location. He was where he had been when he stopped following Martin, and had lost sight of him. The dispatcher figured out that Zimmerman was following Martin and politely told him not do so. Zimmerman said OK, and then another 1-1/2 minutes of conversation followed.
When Zimmerman is trying to describe where he was at, it sounds like he was using his truck as a way point. He says something and the dispatcher talked over him. He knew he was on the cut-through. There are street lights in subdivision – the shadows are visible in satellite images. There may be small lights along the walkways, perhaps on 4-foot posts – enough to provide some illumination but not be shining into peoples back yards. The subdivision was built in 2006 with town homes selling for 250,000, with the greenbelts intended as amenities. And there are lights on the backs of building and lights from inside.
The dispatcher initiated the discussion about whether Zimmerman wanted to meet with an officer (who had already been dispatched). Zimmerman said that he did want to meet, and the dispatcher asked where he wanted to meet. Zimmerman started to describe where he was at, which got side tracked into the address of the truck, and then Zimmerman’s address. It was the dispatcher who suggested the mailboxes. If you check the log and recording, most of the remarks occur a few seconds after the dispatcher was told certain things by Zimmerman. The meeting at the clubhouses shows up in the log before it does in the recording. By this time, the first officer was already in route.
With 20/5 hindsight the mailboxes is an obvious, easy location. The dispatcher needed a street address, that gets sent to to patrol card and likely shows up on a video display in the car. Looking at a map it is easy to understand why Zimmerman was stressing not to turn left at the gate, but rather go around a right-angle jog 120 feet past. It is not so easy to explain over the phone. The first time he was explaining it, Martin started to run. The second time, the dispatcher wanted an address.
Zimmerman did not reject the mailboxes, he accepted them, immediately after the dispatcher had logged it. He then thought, and realized that he would either have to go to his truck and drive to the mailboxes, or walk past his truck. If the police officer is actually in his squad car at the gate and Zimmerman is on his phone, the directions are pretty simple. “Go straight at the stop sign and around the corner to the left and you’ll see my truck.” He might give a description. “OK then where the street makes the right turn, you’ll see a crosswalk and sidewalk. That’s where I’m at. OK. I’m in your headlights now.”
Zimmerman’s statement to police was that he had in fact followed Trayvon on foot, but that he was returning to his truck when Zimmerman “came up from behind.” This encounter, however, took place where Trayvon’s body was found, a good distance from Zimmerman’s truck. So you have not answered my question: if Zimmerman was not continuing his hunt for Trayvon why was he out in pedestrian areas of the complex minutes after his phone call with police ended? Why did it take him two minutes to “return” to his truck? He just thought it was a good place to idle around? Why would he not want to meet at his truck or at the mailboxes?
The only reason he stayed out there on foot was to keep looking for Trayvon. Full stop.
Hey, everyone, Adrian Monk just called me and said “This is how it happened”- and then the phone went dead… ;o)
You can hear the car door opening, and the chimes going off (maybe he left the keys in the ignition) and a few seconds later the door closed. It is long enough that he may just have got out of his truct to get a better view, and then started to try to keep Martin in sight.
Again, if this is the case: how did he wind up at the location of the fight two minutes later?
One witness said he saw “the man who was on top” get up directly after the shot and walk a small distance away. That man “brought his hand to his forehead.”
My question is, could the blood (apparently a small amount) seen by the police on Z.’s nose
and on his head be, not from a wound on Zimmerman, but from Trayvon?
Also, if Zimmerman’s head was slammed repeatedly on concrete, wouldn’t there be traces of blood (in spite of the rain who, if I remember right, had subsided somewhat by then) on that concrete, at least enough traces for Forensic analysis? And if there is no blood on the concrete, how can a head slammed repeatedly on concrete not bleed profusely?
I am also wondering how, if Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman when he was shot, how did Zimmerman manage to get out so quickly from under the (literally) dead 160lbs weight, without getting his red jacket or his Tshirt bloody? Seems that the testimony of the witness that saw the “bulkier” figure on top get up immediately after the gun was fired and walk away makes a little more sense.
And, why was the first picture of Zimmerman an OLD mugshot? Wouldn’t the police have taken a NEW mugshot on the 26th at the police station? Wouldn’t such a mugshot show facial injuries, if they existed?
I don’t trust any of the details given by the witnesses in this case — it would be pretty damn hard to have a worse situation for eye witness testimony. The eye witnesses are useful for describing generalities and timing of events, but anything specific that they remember should not be taken as an accurate description of events unless there is other evidence that tends to greatly substantiate that eye witness’s account.
The witness testimonies about who was on top during the struggle are definitely contradictory. This suggests, at best, that it’s possible both Zimmerman and Trayvon had the upper hand in the struggle at various points. It also may suggest that no one was really able to see what was happening.
The biggest problem is that the police failed to investigate any of the things you mention, and that evidence can not be recovered. Since it’s the state’s job to prove what happened, any loss of evidence can only strengthen Zimmerman’s case.
And for your last question, the initial Zimmerman photo was the first one available to the media, so they ran with it. Zimmerman was never arrested for killing Trayvon, so there is no booking photo. To date, there has been no indication that any other photo or video footage of Zimmerman from that night or in the days after exists.
What evidence do you have they failed to investigate any of these things?
If it turns out they did adequately preserve and examine all the evidence, I’ll happily retract that statement. But I don’t believe anyone is arguing that the Sanford police did a top notch job of investigating the crime scene — and the police chief didn’t resign because the case had been handled perfectly, that’s for sure. We know, for instance, that:
1) No tox screen of Zimmerman was taken.
2) The police did not investigate Trayvon’s phone records until weeks later, when brought to their attention.
3) Zimmerman’s truck was not impounded or investigated.
4) Police have stated that evidence of Zimmerman’s injuries comes from medical reports that Zimmerman provided — not from any medical treatment overseen by the police.
5) The surveillance video shows officers touching Zimmerman’s clothing and wiping their hands off on their trousers, there is no obvious concern with keeping any evidence, gunshot residue, blood, hairs, fibers, etc., as preserved as possible.
We also have statements from witness and relatives of the victim alleging that:
1) The police took Zimmerman at his word that he had a clean record, and not three arrests for instigating violence against both police officers and domestic partners.
2) The police “corrected” witness accounts that portrayed Zimmerman as the aggressor or did not support Zimmerman’s theory of self-defense.
3) The police did not initially follow up with witnesses and ignored additional witnesses that called into police after the incident.
So yes, there is ample reason to be skeptical of the quality of the investigation done here.
Thank you Susan for a great analysis and a sharp and fair assessment of the possible events.
Hows this for logic.It takes a 6’3″ person (Trayvon) casually walking, a maximum of 2 minutes to reach the area where he was found dead. Yet eight minutes transpired from the time Zimmerman made the first 911 report call to when Trayvon was shot. That is six minutes that Trayvon was not walking back to his father’s place. Why did Trayvon not continue walking as he had a clear path to. ANSWER: Trayvon confronted Zimmerman. This bag of skittles and ice tea crap doesn’t hold water to the motivation that he was innocently walking home. He had a bone to pick with Zimmerman. And guess what, it got him shot. What is the message here? You look for trouble, you find trouble. Certain people are angry because they want a world without boundaries. Guess what, that world doesn’t exist. For certain cultures boundaries are important. Respectfully, one culture of people can’t impose a jungle free mentality on other groups of people. The result is a grave stone.
I was going to delete this comment for lack of useful content, but I figured I’d leave it up as an example of just how idiotic and racist so much of the commentary on Trayvon’s death has been. Pray tell, what exactly did you mean by “one culture of people” and their “jungle free mentality”? And while you’re at it, please let me know when it became mandated that members of this “one culture of people” must take the shortest route possible from point A to point B, or else members of “certain cultures” are granted permission to shoot them? And why do members of “certain cultures” have a right to spend eight minutes stalking members of “one culture of people” around, while armed, and not have it deemed “looking for trouble”?
Those are rhetorical questions, by the way. Any further comments from you will be deleted.
Susan I came upon your site today after following this case since it first went national around the middle of March and I have to say, 10 months later, with all the information I’ve gleaned (100’s maybe 1000’s of pages of statements, files, doc’s etc.) you have still managed to tie some loose ends together! Thank you for your in-depth analysis’ and comprehensive and easy to read style. EXCELLENT
PS You also have a great way of dealing with the trolls!
So can I take your delight in the INFORMATION here as a sign of hope that this site is not also about to be overrun with new posters more interested in contesting with one another over who can insult, dehumanize, and hate on “the other side” than in actually discussing the case?
lol, you most certainly can!
So unitron, you switch back and forth between the 2 sites and stay away from HP?
I do HP a lot because I have made good contacts although it gets so redundant with the trolls posting their fantasizical bs, but I can’t desert my Trayvon Team, been with them since mid March. Gotta stand united and so many of us have drifted away leaving only a few to fight. I don’t make very many comments but I do Fave just about every Trayvon Supporter as long as they’re producing correct info. or something which I just can’t help lol, no matter how preposterously funny or absurd.
Your comments are neither accurate (it wasn’t 8 minutes from the time Zimmerman called the police to the time he shot Martin) and when Zimmerman spotted Martin, he was apparently entering the gate, then stopped under a covered area near the club house because he was on the phone and it was raining. Then he proceeded toward his home by what seems to be the most direct path possible. That path apparently CROSSED Zimmerman’s truck where he was parked, observing Martin and talking to the dispatcher.
But all that is immaterial, because what you are really saying is that, no matter what, Martin was after Zimmerman and deserve to die! This is disgusting!
IT DIDNT happen like that and that is not logic whose door was Gz knocking on during the end of the 911 call why was he whispering what that conversation about how long did it last did they answer why he knock on their door -whose door was it
Susan, thanks for the detailed and well thought out analysis. I think it is hard to see exactly what happened that night. My guess would be that Zimmerman initiated a confrontation and used unnecessary force when it went against him.
In my personal opinion, if you stalk someone while armed (the confrontation happened so far from the road that I don’t think Zimmerman’s story that he was not following Trayvon does not hold water), and the other person end up dead, you go to jail unless there is solid evidence that deadly force was necessary to protect yourself. It is hard to say how the Florida law will affect this, but I think Zimmerman goes to trial. Unfortunately, I think that the shoddy invesigation by the Sanford police might make it difficult to get a conviction.
One intersting point that I saw somewhere was that the Sanford police took a videotaped statement from Zimmerman the night of the murder; again I think if there was any convinincing evidence that Zimmerman was seriously injured that portions of this video would have been leaked.
I saw that too — although I doubt that kind of videotape will be all that much better in quality than the surveillance tape. We need clear high res photos for that, or unbiased medical records.
I have no doubt Zimmerman could’ve had some apparent injuries after the shooting. I know I’ve come up with gross looking gashes and grazes merely from falling on grass, during soccer games and what not, and it’s pretty clear that, at some point, Zimmerman was involved in a struggle with Trayvon and both parties went down. So him being injured is consistent with that. But without the clear photos or the medical records, we’ll never be able to know if Zimmerman’s injuries went beyond that.
We’ll never know how the altercation actually went down either, but there may not even be an objective answer to the question of who “started” the fight. If Zimmerman and Trayvon came on one another in the dark, either one could have shoved the other. Trayvon could’ve felt trapped if he ran into Zimmerman out of nowhere, and started the physical altercation by shoving Zimmerman out of his way to try and escape, show that he wasn’t going to be easy prey. (Although I can’t seriously believe he actually threw a punch — if you’ve got a drink and a bag in your hands, you shove, not punch. And if you’ve never been in a fight in your life, you don’t start with boxing style punches, you start with the brawling.) Zimmerman, being paranoid and feeling powerful with a gun in his holster, takes this as vindication and an assault on his life, and shoves back. Trayvon freaks out, thinking the dude’s going to drag him off to his truck; or perhaps he gets a sight of Zimmerman’s gun, and the fight is suddenly on for real. I believe it was Trayvon screaming for help, which means he must have seen the gun at some point — those screams are not the screams of someone who is afraid of a mere wrestling match.
But it’s all speculation. We don’t know, can never know, it’s beyond our ability to prove. All that matters is that one of them was clearly in mortal fear for their life and begging for rescue from anyone who could hear them. If it was Trayvon, Zimmerman is a liar, and, more importantly, we know Trayvon wanted to get the hell out of that fight — and Zimmerman chose to shoot him anyway.
Susan,i don’t know the choice of words to use to appreciate you.This is just an answer to the likes of us who couldn’t figure out the significance of the time line + distance in all this confusion.This is the most cogent commentary i’ve read thus far since the Zim/Tray episode.Thanks again
The point of using deadly force is to prevent serious injuries or bodily harm. You don’t wait until you are so seriously injured that you are unable to defend your own life. I think Zimmerman’s concealed firearm put his life in greater risk because there is a phenomena where cops have been disarmed and their own weapon used on them. I am sure that crossed Zimmerman’s mind while he was being beaten. If Zimmerman is yelling for help then that is a sign of retreating. If he can’t get out of the situation such as Trayvon’s refusal to stop beating him and not letting him up. He has a legal right to defend his life.
Interesting. So you’re claiming that the fact that you are carrying a deadly weapon can, in itself, give you a legal entitlement to use deadly force in the event of an altercation, whereas someone who is unarmed in a similar position would not be so permitted?
Gun carriers have a right to shoot first and assess the situation later, whereas someone using their fists only better not defend themselves too strenuously, or else grant the gun carrier the right to shoot them.
Why doesn’t this go both ways? Why does the person with fists who, seeing that the other person has a gun, not get the right to do everything in their power to prevent that gun from being fired at them?
if i punch you with enough force to brake your nose- and just continue to punch you my knuckles should be all brusied up on both hands , and your face should be bruised up badly but in tm case he has one small scratch on his upper left finger not the knuckle that doesnt go with anything folk been saying about a fight – a fight is fist fight -bloody and brusing of knuckle and body parts. we have none of this
What an interesting thread. We actually do not know what’s in the sealed reports including the autopsy or Zimmerman’s medical records.
However, by now the new prosecutor has had plenty of time to review everything so it leads to believe that she is thinking it would be very difficult if not almost impossible to get a conviction.
I just heard that she will hold a news conference within 72 hours and will give the media 3 hours advance notice.
Wonder why we haven’t heard anything about the DOJ or FBI
It was never going to be an easy case to prosecute, at all. It’s ‘he said – he said’, with the law strongly slanted in the armed party’s favor.
But at least now there has actually been an investigation, beyond the initial “nahh don’t bother” call that was made the night of the shooting. Maybe the evidence isn’t sufficiently beyond a reasonable doubt to get a conviction, but the process that should’ve been carried out from the beginning is finally in motion. Possibly too late, but it’s at least happening.
It all comes down to whether or not the voice shouting for “help” was Trayvon or Zimmerman, and if it was Trayvon, whether the prosecution can sufficiently prove it. If so, it blows Zimmerman’s account out of the water, destroys his credibility, and proves that Trayvon’s goal at the time of his death was calling for help and intervention, not causing harm to Zimmerman. But nothing short of that will really be sufficient — everything else is suggestive but not conclusive enough to prove what really went down. Unless it can be proven Zimmerman was lying and Trayvon was terrified and begging for his life, Zimmerman can always escape a conviction based solely on the murkiness of the situation.
Morally, the blood is still on his hands, no matter the outcome. Had he not wrongly decided a 17 year old kid looked “suspicious,” and pursued him with a gun, and assumed with no evidence beyond his own internal biases that the kid was a criminal, that kid wouldn’t be in the ground today.
And the feds aren’t going to leak. Too political, too little to gain. None of them have asses to cover or reputations to vindicate, they weren’t involved in the initial snafu.
I don’t know how to reply directly to Susan so I will have to do it to other folks’ replies. :o)
My scenario evolves like this: GZ is following Tray again, and by this time he is pretty certain Tray is up to no good, Since this is at night with Tray’s having disappeared, and who knows where he might pop ;;;;;up and whether or not he might be armed, GZ has already has gun in hand- not because he wants to kill him, but for protection just in case.
All-of-a-sudden, as the young lady has stated, after Tray tells her he has lost GZ he suddenly is facing him.
The prosecutor has a huge burden in bringing any charges and I am sure “”beyond a reasonable doubt” weighs heavy on her mind.
If a jury follows Florida law, that will be very difficult. Remember that the state now has to “disprove” self defense, in a sense, and that is why no arrest has ever been made.
I am a bit amazed that so many people have continued to comment and make “demands” for an arrest without even researching our laws.”
Aughh- the first part of my post is right after Susan’s post that ends in “snafu”- which best describes my life LOL
To continue: now Tray and GZ are facing each other, and Tray asks “why are you following me, with GZ’s confrontational “What are you doing here” as a response./ NO explanation that he is part of a neighborhood watch- why? This is according to what the girlfriend hears- and for the record, I believe her account holds no embellishments and is entirely believable.
Now Tray had already told the girlfriend that he thought this (shaven-headed Hispanic) man wanted to do him some harm (we have to remember that black folks and Hispanics are at odds with each other in Florida). Tray, of course, sees the gun in GZ’s hand, and is panicked.pushinthat the girlfriend hears is probabll……ly Tray’s desperate lunge at GZ, knocking him backwards onto the grass, with ray’s jumping on top of him, doing everything he cn to wrest the gun from GZ’s hand- which is EXACTLY what GZ had told the police- that Tray had tried to get the gun out of his hand. BOTH OF THESE
“This is according to what the girlfriend hears- and for the record, I believe her account holds no embellishments and is entirely believable.”
She had talked to Martin for 6 hours that day. She is talking on the phone as
Martin tells her that some strange is following him. She urges him to run. He says he’ll walk fast. She later hears the beginning of the confrontation. She is disconnected, and can’t get hold of Martin. She later surmises that she had heard a shove that caused Martin’s ear phones to fall off.
Sooner or later she hears that Martin is dead, walking home from a 7/11 store, after being shot where he was visiting.
A few weeks later, Martin’s parents are reviewing his cell phone bill which shows the incoming call. His parent’s lawyers contact the girl and report the story to the press.
Susan Simpson Said: Zimmerman’s statement to police was that he had in fact followed Trayvon on foot, but that he was returning to his truck when Zimmerman “came up from behind.”
Do you have a link to Zimmerman’s statement to police?
Susan Simpson Said: if Zimmerman was not continuing his hunt for Trayvon why was he
out in pedestrian areas of the complex minutes after his phone call with police ended?
Zimmerman was in the cut-through when the dispatcher suggested that he not follow Martin.
Zimmerman acknowledged “OK”. The dispatcher got his name and phone number, and then asked Zimmerman if he wanted to meet with the police officer. Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher asked him where he wanted to meet. Zimmerman started to explain where he was at. Zimmerman could have suggested meeting at Target, but that would be stupid because he would have to travel there. Zimmerman could have suggested his residence, but that would have been stupid because he would have to travel there. Zimmerman could have suggested the mailboxes, but why would he? He would have to travel there. The only advantage would be that the dispatcher thought the police officer could find them. Maybe the dispatcher knew that as an arranged landmark.
When Zimmerman started to explain where he was at, so the police officer could meet with him there, he was interrupted by the dispatcher who wanted to know the address of his truck. The dispatcher likely wanted an address to punch into the computer. He didn’t want to give a sequence of instructions. The dispatcher then tries to arrange a meeting at Zimmerman’s place. Finally the dispatcher suggests the mailboxes. If you check the police log, the recording, and the start top of the connection, it appears that this had been entered into the log just before Zimmerman responded. That is, it definitely was not Zimmerman’s idea. Zimmerman realized it was a stupid location, and figured he could get a police officer who was actually on site to his location. It is hard to describe over the phone, but once you could get a policemen to enter the jog, it is fairly easy to describe.
Remember, Zimmerman did not know when the police would arrive. It could have been 10 seconds or 10 minutes. He was in the pedestrian area for the final minute and a half of the phone call. Do you think he was hoping that the phone call would end so he could go hunt for Martin, and his plot was foiled when the dispatcher asked whether he wanted to meet with police. He couldn’t say no, without raising suspicion. So he started to tell the dispatcher where he was at. But if he were hunting for Martin, the police wouldn’t find him there. So after the dispatcher got sidetracked, he came up with the idea of having the officer call him, so he could tell the officer where he was at – but not where he was at then – but where he was at in 10 seconds or 10 minutes of Martin hunting.
Maybe, just maybe, “where I am at” means “where I am at”. And “have the officer call me so I can tell him where I am at” means “have the officer call me so I can tell him where I am at”
COMPUTER PROBLEM- hope you can follow from previous posts- I am where Tray is on top of GZ, after lunging at him to get the gun out of his hand– they are both struggling with BOTH of them being frightened out of their wits- and one to death… Two people, grossly misunderstanding what he other is about, are fighting a battle to the death for absolutely no valid reason. Had GZ not been in his cop wannabe mode, or had he at least explained to Tray why he was following him, one young man would still be alive and the other;s life wouldn’t have been ruined, and I wouldn’t be close to hurling my computer through my sliding glass door at the moment. I hope people can find my 3-sectioned post. At the moment I am feeling my 72 years.(sigh)
There is no doubt that Zimmerman followed Trayvon. He was the neighborhood watch rep. There were many break-ins recently prior, all committed by people with a similar identity criteria. All were getting away, hence the comment why these aholes were getting away. The only way I could see murderous intent with Zimmerman is if he feigned an impression that he was weak but knew full well that he would use his gun when attacked. Sometimes you don’t have to aggressively provoke people to get them angry and hostile to where they push you around. After watching Zimmermans brother on CNN talk, I can say from experience that the Zimmermans are highly intelligent if not very clever. It takes this sort of cleverness to be able feign weakness in order to have people play into entrapment situations. I do not entirely doubt that George could be a psychopath. He should be psychologically tested. But I also wish to encourage the awareness that in a gun toting society the boundary lines are clearly drawn as to what is appropriate or not and what I mean by appropriate. Don’t give someone a reason to kill you.
George Zimmerman acknoweldged that he was following after Martin, and when told not to do so, acknowledged that, and stopped following.
The dispatcher then asked his name and his phone number.
Does anyone think that:
“What is your name?” actually means “return to your car”, and “George” means “I will return to my car”. Maybe a clever Zimmerman realized that by answering “George”, he could avoid answering whether or not he would return to his car, and also claim when he was being tried for murder that he thought the dispatcher asked for his name and phone number. Notice how at the end of the call,Zimmerman made sure that the dispatcher had his phone number. He obviously didn’t want the police to call when they arrived, but was just setting up
I think it will be difficult to prove in court that GZ was not technically defending himself. Remember this is not going to a grand jury. Because of this, it will be all about the technicalities. For those who theorize that GZ premeditated this murder in a serial killing sort of way, I think it would be possible but unlikely. I would lean more towards the theory that GZ had rehearsed scenarios of what he would do if he was physically attacked, how he would use his gun. What needs to be established is whether GZ was anticipating using his gun prior to the altercation. This would establish intent and this intent can be measured through a psychological evaluation and here is where the law might be changed with regard to background checks. One could propose that after a weapon is used in a self d
What possible reason could GZ have to be on the path between the backs of the condos, to the south of the place where TM died? If GZ was walking back to his truck from some place and came to that spot, GW had to have been south of there on the path. No other route back to his car takes him to he spot of the struggle/death. GZ does not live in this section, he is not going home. He is not going to find house numbers there. These are the backyards, and GZ knows this, GW knows the complex and knows the front of the homes are on he street side where the house numbers and street signs are. No reasonable adult thinks GW thought street signs or house numbers (addresses) are in the backyard/patio areas.
GW has no reason to be on that path, heading back to his truck, except that he went there to find Trayvon.To find or see TM, meant to follow him because ZW could not see TM from inside his car as he told police when TM was running and “getting away”. So GZ went on the path to follow TM. There is no other reaonable excuse for GW to be on that path south of the death spot, heading back to his truck (GZ’s story). GZ had a phone, he had called for help, there was no help back on the path, no need to go there for any reason other than to eek out TM, Seeking sight of TM meant GZ had to be follwing him. Looking for sight of someone who just passed by you on foot and ran out of sight, means following him!
“What possible reason could GZ have to be on the path between the backs of the condos, to the south of the place where TM died?”
The townhouses are about 15 feet south of the east-west sidewalk. The head of the T is the likely location of Zimmerman during the last 1-1/2 minutes of his phone call where he asked that the officer call him so he could tell him where he is at. He reportedly walked to the street on the east end of the path to get the street address.
The night of the shooting, the police were standing around on the east-west
sidewak outside the police tape.
Zimmerman reported that Martin was running. The door of the truck opened, the dispatcher asked him which way Martin was running, and Zimmerman said
toward the other entrance, then the truck door closed. Zimmerman then
apparently began to follow after Martin. The dispatcher asked if he were following him, and Zimmerman said yeah. The dispatcher said that he the policed didn’t need hi, to do _that_. Zimmerman said OK, and apparently stopped, for the remaining two minutes of the phone call.
From where Zimmerman was at when he reported that Martin was running, there are two ways for Martin to run that would be instantly identified as being towards the back entrance. One would be down Twin Trees, and the other would be east through the cut-through. Martin could then run south between the backs of the townhouses, or south down Retreat View Circle.
Zimmerman could easily have reached the T before being told not to follow and
stopping. Martin was out of sight and would have been beyond the T.
thanks susan – great detail –
speaking of shoddy investigation, zimmerman’s hands and feet were NEVER BAGGED as is SOP
from the video at the police station, zimmerman was able to wipe “evidence” on the mat at t/he
from the time stamp on the police station video, zimmerman was at the station 37 minutes after the arrival of police on the scene
under “description” on the SWORN police report, officer ayala wrote: homicide – mansl – neglig
a violation of Florida statute 782.11, titled “Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act.”
“Whoever shall unnecessarily kill another, either while resisting an attempt by such other person to commit any felony, or to do any other unlawful act, or after such attempt shall have failed, shall be deemed guilty of manslaughter, a felony of the second degree,”
911 dispatchers usually say “stay on the line” – this one didn’t and, combined with zimmerman telling the dispatcher to have the police call HIM, it gave zimmerman an opportunity to continue to PURSUE trayvon
from the neighborhood watch manual
Patrol members should be TRAINED by law enforcement. It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they SHALL NOT CARRY WEAPONS OR PURSUE vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous.
Community members only serve as the extra “eyes and ears” of law enforcement. They should report their observations of suspicious activities to law enforcement; however, citizens SHOULD NEVER try to take action on those observations. Trained law enforcement should be the only ones ever to take action based on observations of suspicious activities.
the association. “us on watch” doesn’t allow you to participate if you have a carry permit
The Sanford Police Department said in an official press release that police officers are required to indicate a crime in order for it to be reportable to the FBI crime statistics.
I have a huge question for everyone and this may seem very strange but relevant to American history. Could the Martin-Zimmerman case ultimately change political history with this upcoming presidential election between Romney and Obama? Could this be as big as what happened to Al
Gore in Florida with that one small town having their ballots fixed. Remember Al Gore won the popular vote, but this one township played some dirty tricks and the whole state swung over to Bush’s side. If this case goes national as I assume it will then the case becomes political. Keep in mind that the Republican Govenor Scott has switched State Attorney’s on this case. My thought is this is a very calculated move. Obviously the case has a predetermined ruling. My theory is that the State Attorney has been advised to rule against Zimmerman. They will go through the motions of a trial but the trial is already decided as guilty for Zimmerman. What this will do is throw the hispanic vote over to Romney. Romney will win Florida. Its extremely clever if you think about it. Those Republicans are crafty devils. Remember Zimmerman is a registered democrat so its not like the Republicans care.
With respect, this is most bizarre, far fetched post I have seen in a while.
You said: Obviously the case has a predetermined ruling.
Yeah, no offense, but you’re kind of insane.
You might have called my theory insane but you chose to vilify me by calling me insane. Why do that? Is it possible that you are more the stone thrower type who writes off a person instead of their message. Is that the best you got? Would you have said the same thing to someone who twelve years ago theorized that a Florida town would fix the ballots and swing the entire election over to G.W. Bush. If someone presented such a theory to me, I would be fascinated. I wouldn’t verbally stone the person. Call me insane if Obama wins but until that time you might want to consider that strange things happen in Florida. Its a sanctuary for the wealthy and its laws are designed to suit them. For instance did you know that Florida is the only state where you can write off all taxes on property as well as wealth. They have the strangest laws but they are designed for one reason. To protect the rich and their lifestyle. Anyways this theory may be far fetched but how many people actually think beyond their noses anyways. Not many. That’s why people like Steve Jobs do so well because they think far ahead.
Elections are based on demographics. The Hispanic vote is key to this election. The black vote is not going to factor this time. check out this link http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/01/23/latinos-in-the-2012-election-florida/
“Remember Zimmerman is a registered democrat ”
we have NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE of that – ONE CONSERVATIVE ONLINE RAG, free beacon, posted that and it went viral – zimmerman’s father is a registered republican
i did not see anything in angela corey that would indicate to me that this was
in any way political
corey was QUITE IMPRESSIVE
“The Sanford Police Department said in an official press release that police officers are required to indicate a crime in order for it to be reportable to the FBI crime statistics.”
i don’t know what that statement was in reference to
You had written:
under “description” on the SWORN police report, officer ayala wrote: homicide – mansl – neglig a violation of Florida statute 782.11, titled “Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act.”
The police have to put something so it gets included in the crime statistics.
So he is being charged with second degree murder instead of manslaughter. This gives me the impression that there are questions surrounding GZ’s motive for carrying the handgun in the first place. If GZ signed up to be the neighborhood watch representative but did not really engage with the community in any responsible way, then he might have signed up to be a neighborhood watch representative in hopes of having a reason to use his gun on someone. His dad is a war veteran. Maybe he was hoping to relive his dad’s war hero days. I think the court will be looking into his motivations before and during the altercation. I do have the suspicion that Trayvon gave George a textbook reason to use his gun. But if there was latitude for George to freely get his gun out of his pocket to aim at Trayvon’s chest, then there may have been latitude to use preventative measures like warning Trayvon or aiming somewhere other than the chest. The eye witness accounts on this altercation will come into play.
The Hispanic folks will most likely vote for Pres Obama because of the immigration issue.
lol – ok i just realized what that referred to – yes, they have to post a description but it could have been a lesser offense –
He wasn’t “on watch” as you say that night. He was on his way to the store when he saw a suspicious, unfamiliar person. Does Z have conceal carry permit? He had it with him at all times? I think he was near the “fight scene” because he wanted to stay close to where he last saw Trayvon and not try to lose him so he could tell police where he was. He didn’t know the exact location that Trayvon went and Z didn’t know he was there visiting let alone which house he was going to.
If he was not on “neighborhood watch”, please explain why he parked his car near the cut through? What was he doing there? He did not live near the cut through. Please explain.
There is only one main entrance to the community. The back entrance may be keyed, so people won’t tend to go in and out that way. He was on his way to the grocery store.
Zimmerman must have observed Martin before he decided to call the police. If he came around from the west, he might have turned south on the street where he could observe Martin while he called police. Or he might have driven that way directly. There is about a 5 second time difference (55 seconds vs 60 seconds).
Random thoughts…in the 911 call, the dispatcher asks “what address are you parked in front of” and George replies “I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.” I think he is referring to Twin Trees as the cut through, and not the sidewalk that runs in between the condo complexes. That makes a difference as to where his truck was parked, and the timing of the walks and runs made by both he and Treyvon. Another thought, the police removed the gun from George’s waist holster. That says to me that George had the state of mind to replace his firearm. It also makes me wonder the placement of the holster…over top of his tucked in shirt but under his jeans, or over the jeans but under the jacket?
If you listen to his call, it’s pretty clear that he is parked on Twin Trees. Twin Trees actually connects the two entraces. The north intersection with Oregon has an Oregon-Twin Trees street sign, though perhaps people still think of that as more a driveway before the gates. The neighborhood has 3 streets. Not too likely Zimmerman didn’t know the name of one of them, after living there 2-1/2 years.
Twin Trees has a 90 degree jog to the left just 120 feet south of Retreat View Circle. Most people probably turn on Retreat View Circle. So though it is the direct route through the neighborhood, few people actually drive through. If you come in front entrance and go straight, you will end up in a pond. So you have to go through the entrance and make a 90 degree left turn shortly after.
So Zimmerman spends quite a bit of time trying to explain something that is easy to see on a map, but not so easy for someone on the phone who is trying to punch addresses into a computer.
Zimmerman appears to be trying to use his truck as a way point, when the dispatcher asks for the address. Listen carefully, and Zimmerman is saying something while the dispatcher asks the question. If I were using a truck as a way point, I would use language like Zimmerman did, “you’ll see my truck, then you’ll see the cut through.” If the truck was the end location, it might be “I’ll be in my truck on the right side, just after you turn”. The dispatcher gets sidetracked at this point, since he wants an address; just as he did earlier when he was asking if he was east of the club house.
If Zimmerman were actually in front of a townhouse, he’d be blocking a driveway, so it is more likely that he was parked between buildings – though it is also possible that he stopped in front of a driveway to observe Martin and call the police.
@jimrtex: GZ lives at the most south western portion of Retreat View Circle. If he was in fact going on a shopping errand as GZ’s brother attest, his vehicle would have been travelling north which then turns east until he meets the intersection where the gate and Twin Trees Ln. More probable is that he spots Trayvon first on Retreat View Circle. What others haven’t mentioned is that though this is a gated community, it’s not entirely secured from the outside. At the most Northwestern portion of Retreat View Circle, between the townhouses, there is an unfenced portion between this gated community and to the adjoining complex on the west near Oregon Avenue. It is not uncommon for residents to use this pathway going in or out. Perhaps this is the route Trayvon took because it certainly is the shortest. At this point, George sees Trayvon come through this way and this is how TM appears to be “casing” out the houses. George passes TM while in his truck and parks in front of the Clubhouse to observe TM. TM then passes him and then seeks refuge from the rain under the awning on the other side of the clubhouse. This scenario will cause GZ to lose site of Trayvon. He gets out of his car and as he turns the corner, he sees TM again. TM is starteled and hTM’s gf account of “He’s behind me again” and runs.. All this adds extra time and the awning wher the clubhouse is at can provide temporary
It is certainly possible that Martin came through the apartments. Crump made that claim based on DeeDee’s phone conversation. But he may have been just trying to make a credible interpretation of how to account for 23 minutes between 6:54 and 7:17. Would Martin be able to explain to DeeDee over the phone that he was taking shelter in some apartments, and not the townhomes? I am incredibly dubious.
But how much detail did the Sanford police and mayor give to Crump? They gave them the 911 calls and Zimmerman’s call. Maybe they gave them the statements.
If you see how Oregon runs into Rinehart, it actually goes pretty far north. Oregon used to go further west and then headed north. Two freeways, a divided road (Rinehart) and a shopping mall have wiped out much of that. The two driveways into Rinehart are remnants of Oregon. And that is also where the sidewalk on the south side of Rinehart stops. Assuming Chad and Martin had walked to the 7-11 in the past, Martin would know that route, as well as the short cut through the apartments. And he might have known the sidewalk that goes from the NW corner to the detention pond and behind the clubhouse.
If Zimmerman saw him there, then he would try to see whether Martin would go on through to Twin Trees. It is also the shortcut to the apartments where the police did catch some burglars.
Zimmerman would include that in his statement. If he had seen Martin cross Twin Trees and go beyond the townhomes, and then driven up to the gap to the west of the clubhouse (which is about 70 feet), and then driven to Twin Trees, he might not even perceive that as following Martin. If the police had told this to Crump, then it could easily have found its way into a narrative.
Notice the date and still no decision by the judge.
Trevor Dooley a 69 year old black man in Valrico, Florida was charged with manslaughter in the shooting death of David James 41 year old an unarmed white man. He was released on $50,000 bond.
So wonder why this was not covered in MSM?
Um, probably because two days later the dude was arrested and charged for the killing.
What exactly do you think the MSM should have covered here? “News at 11! Guy who shot someone is arrested!”?
According to your timeline, the cops got there about a minute or two after the killing. I have seen a pdf of the officer’s report where he noted the grass on the back and the cut on the head, so it’s exceedingly doubtful that Zimmerman made that up in 1 minute. As far as slamming someone’s head, you don’t have to grab the person, you could just be scuffling and pushing, and it feels to Zimmerman like his head is being slammed into the cement by the other person. I don’t think Zimmerman was trying to imply that Martin had him by the jacket and was physically moving his body that way. With respect to tucking in his shirt, it’s an unconscious move anyone might do after a fight while you get your composure. Next, if Martin attacked Zimmerman first, then it’s reasonable to believe he was either done with his ice tea (which is highly likely, because why would you run with an open can of ice tea in your hand), or he put it down to confront Zimmerman. The skittles he could have put in his pocket. Finally, if Zimmerman intended to kill Martin, why did he bother trying to wrestle him first? Why would he kill someone when he knew the officers would soon be there?
I have no doubt Zimmerman was on the ground at some point. All evidence suggests he was.
But in regards to everything else — when you have to make that many excuses and slightly implausible explanations for how so many incongruous things managed to occur, well, at some point you have to start wondering whether you should be trusting your source.
Other than a few stray loons, no one is claiming Zimmerman started the encounter planning to kill Trayvon. But as some point, he made the choice to kill Trayvon, and the weight of evidence available so far suggests that any fear he had for his life was entirely unreasonable. Given the fact he was responsible for initiating an armed pursuit of his victim, something more than “holy shit my head is grazing the sidewalk!!!” was required before he could justify his decision to kill someone.
Also, I strongly believe it was Trayvon screaming for help. In which case, “scuffling and pushing” is an utterly absurd justification for killing someone who is begging for their life.
According to your own timeline, Martin started running a full 2 minutes before Zimmerman got off the phone. If he had merely been walking, he could have covered over 175 yards; yet, he was found, what, 25 yards from Zimmerman’s vehicle? Your own timeline strongly suggests Martin definitely stopped running away, and perhaps started stalking Zimmerman; at a minimum, it suggested Martin stopped entirely for 2 minutes after getting behind the building; to do – what?
You want to build a case that Zimmerman, incongruously, wanted to at a minimum pick a fight with Martin KNOWING THE COPS WERE ON THE WAY. Yet his own actions in all these calls were of a man who did not want a confrontation, who would call from his house when he would see a suspicious person.
I strongly believe it was Zimmerman screaming for help. You’re saying that Zimmerman on the spot made up a lie that it was he, not Martin, that was calling for help.
Question: precisely how many voice analysis experts will have to reach a finding that it was not Zimmerman yelling for help before you are willing to consider the possibility that it was in fact Trayvon who was screaming for his life?
I don’t know who is at fault here, but fazsha is not the only one making many “excuses and slightly implausible explanations.” You seem to be doing the same in some instances — for example, you said, “I believe it was Trayvon screaming for help, which means he must have seen the gun at some point.” Really? And how can we determine that? You also ask, “How many voice analysis experts will have to reach a finding that it was not Zimmerman yelling for help before you are willing to consider the possibility that it was in fact Trayvon who was screaming for his life?” I am betting that both sides will have voice analysis experts testifying at the trial, supporting both Trayvon and GZ as being the person yelling for help. The timeline is indeed interesting. However, you do seem to present it from a rather bias perspective. As someone who has sat on a first degree felony jury, I can tell you that it is highly likely that we have not heard all of the facts yet.
You’re misreading my comment. If Trayvon is the one screaming for help, then that would indicate he had probably seen Zimmerman’s gun. The yells for help are clearly terrified out of their mind — they are not yells from some schoolyard scuffle. Therefore, if it is established the yells are Trayvon’s, then we have a pretty good guess that he knew this was a fight for his life, i.e., a gun or other deadly weapon was involved.
And it’s possible that Zimmerman will be able to find experts swearing that the voice is his. Throw enough money at an expert, and they’ll say a lot of things. But witnesses paid to give any opinion — not a requested opinion — have so far come out 2-0 for Trayvon. And so far Zimmerman hasn’t even found a paid shill for his camp.
Also it is obvious we do not have all the facts yet. That’s why I made the timeline, to try and piece together the gaps from what happens to be available.
Susan, I honestly think that it was GZ that was screaming for help; I heard his voice at the brief hearing yesterday and it’s somewhat high. If my theory is correct and Tray rushed GZ because GZ was wielding a gun, the fact that the tables had been turned, and now GZ was in fear of being shot, with Tray’s being on top of him, and wrestling for the gun, it would seem logical- he was terrified. I don’t think that when GZ told the officer or whomever that he had been screaming for help but nobody came that this was a “preemptive strike” so to speak.
There is no way that someone could have been as injured as GZ claimed he was, however, and walk as normally as he did, about 45 minutes after the shooting. Of course, since my theory is that it was Tray standing his ground when he lunged at a man wielding a gun who had stalked him, it makes little difference how severe any injuries might have been, since that, along with the legal theory of self-defense would have been on Tray’s side.
Dear Susan, what about the voice crying for help on the 911-tape? Is there no technology to determine whether or not that voice is Zimmerman’s’? How is it that we are able to go to the moon, send satellites into orbit BUT can’t determine whose voice is (not) on an audio recording. I think that if it can be established that the voice in question is not from Zimmerman, his whole defense will crash. BTW, thank you Susan for your analysis. This is the only factual analysis made on this subject to date.
Can the Trial Court order a voice analysis test with regard to the 911-tape in the case of the State of Florida v Zimmerman? Could the Prosecution carry out its own voice analysis test with regard to the 911-tape in the case of the State of Florida v Zimmerman and would that be admissible? Could de Department of Justice / FBI carry out their own voice analysis test with regard to the 911-tape in the killing of Trayvon Martin and would that be admissible the case of the State of Florida v Zimmerman? Can Zimmerman carry out his own voice analysis test with regard to the 911-tape in the case of the State of Florida v Zimmerman and would that be admissible?
I disagree that the Zimmerman would have proven his case of self-defense if the cries for help were his.
If my theory is correct, that GZ had gone in with gun drawn, but had been lunged at with Trayvon’s winding up on top of him, it would make sense that GZ would be terrified and crying for help.
I think most of us agree that Tray was probably on top, so again, with this likely being the case, the “help” again would be logical coming from GZ.
I am not saying that Tray couldn’t have been on top yet crying for help as he desperately wants to get the gun out of GZ’s hand,, but I do think it was GZ. This hasn’t bothered me that much re the evidence anymore than Tray
s being on top does- I would hope a good prosecutor could set up a very credible scenario.
Of course it would be “ideal” were it GZ on top with Tray’s yelling for help.
Maybe Zimmerman’s mom will also testify as an expert witness.
Susan, I’m willing to acknowledge it’s possible that it was Martin that was screaming and that Zimmerman decided to call the police, track Martin down, fight him (though there are no reports of injuries to Martin), make Martin scream help, then take out his gun and shoot him in the chest, then wait for the cops to come and then say it was he himself that screamed. I just think it’s easier to believe Zimmerman’s story than that one.
This is not about what you choose to believe but what the fact are saying. The experts have spoken, yet YOU HARDEN YOUR HEART (!!). You will only hear what you want to hear (even if no sound was made) and believe what you want to believe (even if the truth hit you like lightening). That’s kind of unfortunate, wouldn’t you agree? Maybe you and the Zimmerman defenders ought to hire your own expert to enlighten us on this? I wonder why you are not doing that – what are you afraid of?. BTW, the experts who have so far spoken were all hired by a RIGHT WING (Orlando Sentinel).
No one that I am aware of is alleging that version of events. It appears most likely that Zimmerman and Martin encountered each other suddenly after having lost track of one another, and that some kind of physical altercation resulted. Someone shoved someone, they go down, and are tussling in the dirt. The two were viewed on the ground “without a whole lot of movement” for at least 30 seconds, maybe longer.
Why would Trayvon have been yelling for help? Best explanation is that he saw the gun or saw Zimmerman trying to draw it. Trayvon freaks out, afraid that Zimmerman’s going to shoot him, realizes he’s in a fight for his life — and then starts screaming, begging for intervention. One possible explanation for why there did not appear to be much movement while the two were fighting is that after Trayvon saw the gun, he was trying to hold Zimmerman’s hands down. He may have managed to pin Zimmerman, partially, while Zimmerman has the gun half out, but once he’s managed that, he’s out of options. Trayvon screams frantically for help because he can’t get out of the encounter without help — soon as he tries to move, Zimmerman’s hands are free and he is able to shoot Trayvon.
Why would Zimmerman have been yelling for help? The explanation seems to be that he was getting his head banged into concrete. But this explanation is not supported by any physical evidence, either of the arrangement of the crime scene or of Zimmerman’s injuries. Also, the “help” screams never get cut off until the very end, when the shot is fired. If Zimmerman is yelling help while his head is being punched, you’d expect to hear “heeeeelll—” and then break off as he bashed down. It doesn’t happen. Instead, the only cut-off scream of help is the one that is cut off as the shot is fired.
Also, the lack of report of injuries to the victim does not support a claim of self-defense. Trayvon wasn’t some secret karate black belt, or any kind of trained fighter — if he’s punching someone in the face for a minute, shoving the person around and slamming heads about, he’s going to pick up injuries himself. If the funeral director’s report is any indication, there were no signs of offensive injuries on Trayvon.
Which is another reason why I suspect Trayvon had managed to pin down Zimmerman before Zimmerman could fully draw his gun. It’s the only explanation that makes sense, to me, for how two people could be on the ground, fighting, for a minute and a half, in a life or death struggle, with neither receiving significant injuries beyond the fatal gunshot.
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I haven’t hardened my heart to evidence, but I’m unwilling to anoint someone as an expert in a narrow field of voice recognition. Remember, we’ve had experts in the Federal Reserve, in Fannie Mae, in a lot of different areas that turn out to be, well, WRONG. It is quite possible that any description that Zimmerman gave of the fight was just his best recollection; If you’re fighting, you’re frantically trying to win, you’re not dispassionately observing “then he did this, then I did that”. You have witnesses that said the black guy was over the white guy. Are they experts? Don’t you believe them? No, because they were wrong. You want to believe Martin is innocent, so you embrace anyone who says he’s an expert that supports your view.
Why would Zimmerman stop shouting help after he shot Martin? Simple; he didn’t need help any more. Why would Zimmerman continue to yell help after Martin is dead? Presumably the gunshot would startle him into stopping yelling, just like people stop talking when they hear a loud noise.
I think we should figure out why Zimmerman was not back at his truck nearly 3 minutes after he said, ” o.k” and not why Martin, who likely didn’t want to be followed home, if he even saw Zimmerman at that point, was still walking and minding his business.
Of course you would, because my questions reveal uncomfortable facts for you to deal with while you try to ram thru your preconceived notion of Travon the Saint. I don’t know the rationale for him hanging around, but we do know he did not walk or run straight home, though he easily had the chance.
On the 911-tape you can clearly hear an incomplete cry for help that was cut short by a gun fire. Zimmerman did NOT stop crying for help. Whoever that was crying for help was incapacitated to complete the cry for help. The person in question yells “Heeeee….” and then the gunshot that put an end to the yelling. Again, it is not about what you choose to believe but what the cold hard facts are telling us (E.g. we have also heard that Zimmerman was zipped up during the fight which is why – so its claimed – no blood is seen on his T-shirt. But then how did Zimmerman get his gun out of the holster and remove the safety of the gun b/4 shooting? Maybe Zimmerman had a loaded gun in HIS HANDS ready to confront Trayvon? I am juist trying to activate your God given thinking faculty which you seem to have refused to use). I am also amaze that you do not trust “experts” in de field of natural science. If I understand you well, you may not even trust your doctor if he one day comes with bad news regarding your health – because “the experts of the Federal Reserve and Fannie Mea got it WRONG” before. I think, with all due respect, that your logic is kind of twisted: expert opinion in de field of natural science (dna, dactylography, speech recognition, the effects of light, etc.) and expert opinion in the field of social science (micro economics, sociology, law, etc.) are not one and the same. The former is an exact science that renders judgments with exact scientific certainty, the latter is not an exact science and its conclusions are subject to a whole number of known and unknown variables. Again, hire you own expert and enlighten us – unless you scared of the outcome thereof! And I will like to remind you and your friends that this website is for intelligent discussions where participants are only passionate about the facts AND NOT with regard to either Trayvon or Mr. Zimmerman. If your dislike for Trayvon is the reason why he in your mind must be guilty, then I suggest you head off to other numerous sites where people feast and gorge themselves in hate – not here!
I will address your complaints in order:
1. You strongly imply Zimmerman is incapable of stopping yelling when his gun goes off. I reject that.
2. You say Zimmerman was zipped up; this is the first I’ve heard it. Also, you’re assuming a bloody nose has to drip on a shirt: why? Can’t you just have a slightly bloody nose, does every bloody nose have to cover your clothes in goo?
3. You say natural science is an exact science. Tell that to the cancer researchers at Duke University. The NY Times reported that their “science” of targeting precise cancer cells was complete garbage. Go ahead; it was a 2011 article on your precious, perfect, “natural science” conclusions. I am passionate about facts; I am also passionate about accuracy.
4. It’s not a question of me liking Trayvon. To be honest, when the story first broke, I too thought Zimmerman was a bad guy, based on the angelic photo of Trayvon and Zimmerman’s baleful look in his 2005 mug shot. It was only after I did more research that I changed my mind and decided to be very skeptical of this idea that Zimmerman was looking to kill someone.
5. You still have not answered my question, which is why would Zimmerman want to kill someone unless he thought he had to, when he KNEW cops were on the way? Do you really think Zimmerman thought he could commit murder and get away with it, so much so that he would actually call the cops in advance, just to show what a Houdini he could be?
Read the police report. Cop said he was bleeding from nose and back of head. Zimmerman said to fire dept, not to cops, that he was calling for help but no one would come. Cop only overheard it.
Then tell me I’m just a hater not interested in facts.
The dispatcher did not know that Zimmernan had a truck until much later in the call. He might have heard the truck door opening – but he was asking Zimmerman to determine which way Martin was running. It would be difficult to see from inside a truck on the south side of the street
through the cut-through. There are trees along the sides of the buildings, and the sidewalk is not parallel to the buildings on the south, but to the buildings on the north.
It would be normal to get out of the truck, to get the information that the dispatcher had demanded. As the dispatcher asks for clarification, and about 10 seconds after Martin had begun to run (he could easily have covered 150 feet) Zimmerman begins to follow as he is explaining to the dispatcher where Martin appeared to be heading.
After the dispatcher determines that Zimmerman is following (in order to keep Martin in sight), he asks if he is following, and when Martin acknowledges, the dispatcher suggests that he not, and Zimmerman then says OK, and slows and stops.
If the dispatcher was concerned that Zimmerman was not returning to a truck, that he may not have known existed, he did not indicate it. He asked for Zimmerman’s name and phone number.
My two cents: If we are trying to assign blame for this tragic end, One can place it squarely on Zimmerman’s shoulders. He acted on suspicion, not on facts. He acted with the clear the understanding that a lethal confrontations was possible proven by the fact that he decided to arm himself. He decided to pursue an individual with no proof that said individual was guilty of any wrong doing. Trayvon, on the other had, did nothing wrong, but he did make a fatal decision. He decided to confront his aggressor (whether one likes it or not, following a person with no apparent reason is an act of aggression). In conclusion, two individuals whose concept of each other was mistaken, ended up confronting each other with a regrettable outcome, but that nevertheless does have a culprit: the person who initiated the aggression and made a judgement based on nothing less that his flawed spider sense. Now it is up to the wheels of justice whether he is judged as a murderer or as fool. His action ended someones life and for that the consequences should not be insignificant. Ultimately, who we should blame is humanity itself since we are unworthy of trusting each other.
We can all agree it was tragic and a misunderstanding, and we wish it hadn’t happened.
I think where I come down is this: is it reasonable for us to be allowed to watch over our own neighborhoods, to assist the police by trying to keep a suspicious person in view so they can find them when they arrive? Perhaps Zimmerman wasn’t too subtle in getting out of the car and chasing Martin; perhaps he should have stayed in the car and just tried to follow parallel to where he thought Martin was. But did Zimmerman’s initial policing action of trying to stop burglaries go too far? I don’t think so.
No, we can’t all agree that.
It is not a “tragic misunderstanding” when someone makes a conscious decision to arm themselves and go after an unknown individual, based on a wholly unfounded and statistically unlikely assumption that the unknown individual is a threat.
It is not “reasonable” to stalk your neighborhood at night, while carrying a deadly weapon, monitoring your neighbors, judging their activities, and deliberately creating a situation where a physical altercation might occur — a physical altercation that, due to the presence of your weapon, carries a high risk of turning into a fatal encounter for someone?
Zimmerman had every right to call 911 and report a “suspicious” person, even if he was likely making biased judgments in what he thought qualified as “suspicious.”
But Zimmerman had no right to pursue, while armed, a neighbor whom he believed to be a criminal without any justification for such belief. Someone chasing you through the dark is a threat — and Zimmerman had no special right to harass and threaten his neighbors by randomly pursuing them their own neighborhood.
that is alot! just one thing that amazed me martin not once called 911, so i would ask your opinion on that? he was carrying a cell phone?
and to add, your time line here is very lengthy, if i was being follow for that long, i would not call my girl friend! i would call 911.
this is a very lengthy time line, if i was being followed for that long, i would not call my girl friend! i would call 911 and with the cell phone i had in my hand.
This is called blaming the victim.
It is also misconstruing what happened and acting as if Trayvon knew things he obviously could not have.
Trayvon didn’t know for sure what was going on — from DeeDee’s statements, we know he felt creeped out and worried, but not terrified. People often minimize possible threats out of a desire not to rock the boat, or to cause a fuss over something that very easily could turn out to be nothing. (Zimmerman obviously does not have this problem.)
He also lost Zimmerman for a period of over a minute, likely giving him a false sense of security, and an assumption that maybe he’d misunderstood what he’d seen.
And ignoring all that — what exactly are you trying to imply here? That Zimmerman is not responsible for an innocent teenager’s death, because Trayvon did not follow the precise emergency procedures that you feel that you personally “would have done” had it been you?
Well, since it is POSSIBLE that Zimmerman, after losing Martin, was walking back to his truck and then Martin confronted Zimmerman, as we are led to believe from his dad, and Zimmerman was being punched, then Zimmerman at that point was also a victim of an assault, and thus any attempt to blame Zimmerman for not following the precise steps you would have taken if someone had punched you in the face is also blaming the victim. Fair is fair.
Pursuing a stranger through the dark, while armed, is not a neutral event. It is an aggressive act against another human being. Ignoring any events that occurred after that, Zimmerman was the aggressor who deliberately put another human being in fear of their personal safety.
Do you not understand that there is a huge difference between “it’s Trayvon’s fault that he died because he didn’t [insert here arbitrary claim about what is the proper response to being chased in the dark by a stranger]” and “it is Zimmerman’s fault for deliberately creating a situation where he threatened another human being, and then needlessly made the choice to increase the odds that a physical altercation between him and his victim would occur”?
Zimmerman was playing dice with other people’s lives, and Trayvon lost.
let us keep one thing in mind, for self defense you have to have evidence, there is physical evidence on zimmerman and evidence due to paramedic report, that backs zimmerman claim of fight. if you are defending yourself you have physical damage unto you, in both parties, were is martin physical injury? as reported by the funeral director martin had not physical injury that he saw, yes he had a shot would, but no physical injury to defend yourself you would have to have something scratch bruise slap mark something, there was nothing. so martin was not defending himself, my opinion how can you defend when you are the aggressor? and evidence is there in physical and witness statement. toxicology will hold a big impact, you can take a sweet boy as martin would have been and mix that with chemical you have a totally different person, like the saying ” alcohol made me do it” because people who drink alcohol who can not control themselves often need a blame.
Maybe Martin was screaming that Zimmerman MIGHT leave a mark on him that would be as scary as the bloody nose and cuts on the back of the head he gave Zimmerman. “Help! He might do to me what I did to him! Help!”
omg!!!! You are driving me crazy with all this crap about not having any evidence. We all agree that there was a fight. That is obvious. Because you do not see any marks on Trayvon, does not mean that he wasn’t trying to defend his life. Zimmerman had a gun, wouldn’t you do what you had to do if someone pulled a gun on you? Trayvon was UNARMED. The only thing he had to defend himself was his fists. Since you have stated that the funeral director found no marks on Trayvon, how does the punch to Zimmerman”s nose hold up? You said it yourself. No marks or bruises onhihhankdhandstoinindicate
The funeral director said he observed no wounds on the hands. Nancy Grace was playing pretend-prosecutor and said something along the lines of “I don’t want to lead you but did you notice any sort of bruises that indicated Martin was punching Zimmerman. But the mortician was probably told, “person shot, pick up the body here, so any lack of observation was meaningless. Even with regard to location of the entry would he didn’t say, and observed that the autopsy usually opens up the chest.
I would like to know why you completely discount the version that Zimmerman said ( if that is actually what he said because he has never spoken publicly) but are so quick to believe the girlfriend’s story? After hearing her boyfriend being shoved and the phone going dead, did she make any calls back to his phone? I haven’t heard if she did or did not. Why did it take Martin’s parents looking at his cellphone bill to know that he was speaking to her? Why did she not come forward prior to that? Why should we believe someone who came forward 3 weeks later and not the witness who spoke that night and the following day on the news? Also, the lead investigator said that Trayvon’s father said that was not his son’s voice yelling for help. Why would he say that?
There are more questions than answers in this case. Evidence has not been revealed and more than likely will not be revealed until court. Until then, we can all speculate on what happened that night but, since none of us were there and have not seen the evidence, that does not mean it is true.
Check your premises.
I don’t “completely discount” Zimmerman’s version of events — because we don’t even have Zimmerman’s version of events. And I’m not “quick to believe the girlfriend’s story” — it’s another point of data used to reconstruct what happened. The post included every known third-party’s retelling of Zimmerman’s story in order to try and piece together the timeline of the minute and a half that is not well documented by the record, I made all of the possible versions available for people to consider for themselves.
The four retellings of Zimmerman’s story are all inconsistent with one another, and two of them are bizarrely improbable. This is a good reason to discount the reliability of these second hand stories — all of them can’t be true, and even if some of them seem more likely, there’s no way to know which of them is actually the closest to being true.
On the other hand, DeeDee’s version of events (1) is a first hand account, (2) is supported by call records which show she was speaking to Trayvon at the relevant times that she says she was, (3) is not self-serving, and contains only facts and details that someone in DeeDee’s position is likely to have been able to hear or recall, and (4) is consistent with the facts reported by Zimmerman in his 911 call.
Plus, if DeeDee wanted to lie to protect Trayvon’s memory, she could have done a hell of lot better than the testimony she has given so far.
Also DeeDee did call him back and got no answer, and did not find out until a few days later that she was the last person to speak to him. And the police are the ones who failed miserably in not investigating Trayvon’s phone records — she was unquestionably on the phone with him that night, and it seems clear her parents have been actively doing everything they can to minimize her exposure to the police and media as a result of the investigation.
Susan, you have never answered my question of how Martin could not get away from a guy he was running from when the guy was on the phone for a full two minutes after Martin started running, and where it was clear Zimmerman only was running for a maximum of 20 seconds before he stopped. Apparently since Zimmerman took a few steps in Martin’s direction, something Martin, if running, may not have even seen, Martin has, according to you, carte blanche to do whatever. So, if a guy tries to break into your house, and you scare him off with a gun, you then have the right to chase the guy down the street and shoot him in the back, according to your logic, because the other guy did the initial aggressive act. I don’t agree.
You’re just strawmanning now. That’s not “my logic” at all — my point was that Zimmerman jumped out of his car to chase after a kid, and available evidence indicates that kid was scared (as pretty much everyone would be in that situation), and ran away.
Besides which, I already addressed that question at length in the post. Trayvon did get away — for a time. DeeDee and Zimmerman both state that Zimmerman saw and began to pursue Trayvon, but that Trayvon managed to get away. They both also agree that, a minute or two later, the two encountered each other again.
But we don’t know what either Trayvon or Zimmerman did in the intervening time. We know Trayvon didn’t go home. We know Zimmerman didn’t go back to his car. I listed a bunch of possible explanations for what what path they took during that time, but that’s as far as it gets.
So we don’t know for sure how the physical altercation that lead to Trayvon’s death was initiated. But we do know, as confirmed fact, that the entire encounter between the two started because Zimmerman grabbed a gun and ran out of his truck to chase after a scared neighborhood kid. *Even if* Trayvon turned into a ninja and suckerpunched Zimmerman from behind, Zimmerman initiated the violent threats — you’re not a “victim” just because you lose a fight that you started.
Add in the fact that Zimmerman has three arrests for initiating violence against others, including against both a policeman and a prior girlfriend, and add in the fact that he was angry and cursing at the “fucking punk/coon/goon” as he chased after him in the dark… Well. It’s pretty clear which way the character evidence is going to point, when it comes to the question of who started the physical fight.
Question: does this mean you would be fine with random strangers chasing you in the dark as you walk about your neighborhood, just so long as they stop after 20 seconds? And that you agree that, if a stranger chases you, this means that you are required to go back and lock yourself in your house, because the person who chased you now has a right to be outside while you don’t?
For whatever reason, the police didn’t interview the gf until weeks after the event. The Martin family’s narrative had been out in the public for a long time. This renders anything the gf says supsect or, at the very least, less probative than what witnesses said who we interviewed before it became a national event.
Why didn’t the gf go to the police on her own?
I agree that it was unwise for Zimmerman to get out of his car and start following Martin. But do you have caselaw from Florida indicating that following somone makes you the agressor and means you forfeit the right of self-defense?
If Martin had wanted too he could have run to his father’s house or outside the complex. Yet the struggle ensued 250 feet away from Zimmerman’s car. This is most consistent with Martin seeking Zimmerman out.
Mark — I touch on this in a little more detail in a later post, but yes, Florida statute and case law hold that provoking a physical altercation places some serious limitations on your right thereafter to use deadly force in self-defense.
But why do you think the situations is “most consistent” with Trayvon seeking Zimmerman out? It’s a possible explanation, but it doesn’t make sense. He has no history of violence, he was on the phone with his girlfriend, and he had had a bottle of tea and pack of skittles on him — I’ve suggested three or four alternate possibilities which all seem as or more likely than ‘the kid went back to hunt his chaser down!”
If Zimmerman’s truck was initially blocking Trayvon’s path, he might’ve run off in a direction leading away from his house. Him looping back and then taking a cut through between the houses would equally explain the series of events. It is also far more plausible, unless you think for some bizarre reason that a 17 year old kid — on the phone with his girlfriend, carrying snacks, and with no history of violence — is likely to hunt down a menacing guy who was chasing him a few minutes earlier, and throw the first known punch of his life. When his pursuer is a former bouncer for illegal house parties who has arrests for breaking out into violence to solve disagreements — who was cursing on the phone minutes before, as he charged out of his car with a gun — well, can you at least agree that, on paper, Zimmerman seems the more likely candidate for instigating violence? Or does the fact that Trayvon was black trump the fact nothing else indicates he was the type to start fights?
“Yet the struggle ensued 250 feet away from Zimmerman’s car.”
Do you know exactly where Zimmernan’s vehicle was parked?
If so, I’d love to know where, and how it is that you happen to know.
Considering that Zimmerman was in his car (presumably not moving) during the first 2 minutes of the 4 minute call and his breathing slows to normal about 1.5 minutes before the call ended, it’s hard to conclude with any certainty that he was following, much less “stalking,” Martin for more than 30 seconds or so. And during part of that time period he may have been heading back to his car because he responds “ok” to the dispatcher who requests that Zimmerman doesn’t follow Martin.
7:14pm: There is approximately a one minute, thirty second period for which we have very little information about what occurred, from around 17:14:00 until 17:15:30. Zimmerman apparently keeps searching for Trayvon during this time period, and phone records show that Trayvon is still on the phone with DeeDee. Also during this period of time, neither party moves particularly far from their estimated locations at 7:13:00pm;
I’m wondering how she has any idea of the respective locations and movements of the two.
Pretty sure the post explained all of that. In detail. I provided the facts I was working off of, and then listed the scenarios that I believe fit the data. See where I give times and note the sources? That’s me stating what the evidence is. See where I say “apparently” and “estimated”? That’s me noting where I’m making inferences based on the above listed facts. So I’ve provided exactly how I have “any idea” of what happened, you didn’t need to ask.
And if Zimmerman did, as you suggest, immediately head back to the car after the phone call with police, then please answer this: how the heck does he wind up at the place where he shoots Trayvon two minutes later? All of the known statements from Zimmerman are clear that he left his car, and only headed back just before Trayvon magically sucker punched around the back of his head into his nose. So the idea that Zimmerman got out of his care for 20 seconds and then politely went back has literally no support in any testimony, physical fact, or supportable inference.
1. Yes, Zimmerman didn’t make it back to the truck, but we don’t know that he wasn’t headed in that direction. He certainly could have been walking back in a slow pace since by his own admission on the call he didn’t know where Martin was and was afraid.
2. Whatever you might want to claim about Zimmerman’s past, Martin was no angel either. His life appears to have been in something of a downward spiral. He was just starting a suspension. He called himself a “no limit nigga” on Twitter and had at least on violent post. The issue of whether he was drinking or on drugs is quite significant. It would confirm Zimmerman’s suspicions (and make him more credible) and also indicate that Martin had lower than normal inhibitions.
Everyone leaving out the knocking on the door that Gz was doing when he said he lost sight of tm while talking to the 911 operator you can clearly here him knocking on the door and whispering whose door was he knocking on and why shortly after that he kills martin…
“Everyone leaving out the knocking on the door that Gz was doing when he said he lost sight of tm while talking to the 911 operator you can clearly here him knocking on the door and whispering whose door was he knocking on and why shortly after that he kills martin…”
And the person upon whose door he was knocking knew in advance to whisper as well?
Is this a serious post?
What time in the call?
If someone chases me, I run home and I call the police. If I instead decide that “it’s a free country, I am entitled to the outside as much as he is, I’ll go out and start a fight with this guy”, and I find him and I start beating his ass, and I don’t stop, while he’s saying help help, and the guy has a gun, I am not going to be surprised that he will use it on me.
Thanks to all who have defended my narrative of Zimmerman’s point of view. Susan accuses me of putting up a “straw man” argument, yet I do not understand what is the fundamental difference between the example I put up that is supposedly misrepresenting her position. She doesn’t like it, so she says “straw man”, and that’s supposed to be a conclusive rebuttal. I at least try to answer her specific questions. She doesn’t answer mine, but continually refers back to her unhappiness with Zimmerman getting out of his car, as if anything that happens to him after that is fair game for an indefinite period. Look, I agree, if Zimmerman caught him immediately and started making a confrontation, then yes, Martin has a right to punch him in defense. That didn’t happen.
No, that is not what was said. You are once again making up claims that I never made, and attributing it to me.
You asked why it wasn’t blaming the victim to suggest Zimmerman had acted wrongly in pursuing Trayvon, ” since it is POSSIBLE that Zimmerman, after losing Martin, was walking back to his truck and then Martin confronted Zimmerman[.]”
I responded that it is not victim blaming to say that someone who pursues a neighbor, while wielding a gun, immediately after cursing and calling that neighbor an asshole and a fucking punk/coon/goon, is an aggressor who has wrongfully threatened violence on another person. If that person then turns around and beats them up, they are not a victim — they have started violence, and they have lost the fight. As such, pointing out that it was their responsibility to minimize the ill-effects of their own aggressive and threatening behavior is not “victim blaming” because they are not a victim. I did not say that the other person had a legal right to beat them up — I said it was absurd to call criticisms of the fight’s instigator “victim blaming.”
You then claimed that I stated that “since Zimmerman took a few steps in Martin’s direction, something Martin, if running, may not have even seen, Martin has, according to you, carte blanche to do whatever.” I did not say anything resembling that; “victim blaming” and “lawful responses to threats” are two different issues entirely.
Besides which, the law is clear that someone who instigates a violent encounter is checked on what they may lawfully do to respond:
“So the idea that Zimmerman got out of his care for 20 seconds and then politely went back has literally no support in any testimony, physical fact, or supportable inference.”
Of course I didn’t say that. He was obviously following Martin. I don’t know how far he got or where he was when he decided to head back (if he did in fact do that).
But the known facts aren’t consistent with Zimmerman following him around the complex for an extended period of time.
Then we have no disagreement on that point. He couldn’t have been following Trayvon, he lost sight of his target. But I do think he kept looking, based on the fact he was still outside for two minutes.
Now there is a video on the internet where GZ takes the detectives through the actual event scene, and describes what he said and did at each location. The critical fact that has been missing in our arguments up to this point has been solved. GZ said that he was not following TM, that he got out of his truck because he thought that if he went down a path that he could locate a street sign on another street to tell the cops where to meet him at, since he didn’t know the street he was on and there were no signs on that street until you got around the curve. It matches with what the dispatch recording said just prior, that the dispatcher had been asking what street he was on and he didn’t know.
But why do you think the situations is ‘most consistent’ with Trayvon seeking Zimmerman out? It’s a possible explanation, but it doesn’t make sense. He has no history of violence, he was on the phone with his girlfriend, and he had had a bottle of tea and pack of skittles on him — I’ve suggested three or four alternate possibilities which all seem as or more likely than ‘the kid went back to hunt his chaser down!’
Well a kid who gets a gold grill and tatoos like a gang banger and links to at least one on twitter sounds like he’s on a bad trajectory, doesn’t it?
Since we don’t know exactly where the truck was, to claim that it might have been blocking Martin’s path to the rear entrance or his father’s house is quite speculative.
I’d also point out that the so-called probable cause affidavit says that that Zimmerman initiated a confrontation and a struggle ensued. If the prosecutor can’t say with certainty who threw the first punch then I’m not sure why anyone should conclude it’s more likely than not that Zimmerman did.
And even the gf’s statement (if it has been reported accurately) that Martin asked Zimmerman “why are you following me” is at least somewhat supportive of Zimmerman’s account.
Why didn’t Martin call 911?
1) None of your points about Trayvon indicate a propensity for violence. You are merely citing a list of things that Trayvon has done that you believe indicate something undesirable about his character, even though none of it suggests he has ever been in a fight in his life or ever instigated a violent encounter, and then saying “well, his life was going shit, maybe he randomly punched a dude in the nose.” This is not how it works. Evidence of truancy and smoking a joint is not evidence that you randomly like to punch people in the nose.
Also he had a tattoo of his mom’s name. C’mon, dude. If that makes you a gangbanger, we need to lock up three-quarters of the hipster population.
2) Of course it’s speculation. I speculated on a bunch of possible scenarios. You speculated on one. That is not evidence that your single speculation is more valid than all other possible speculations.
3) That is exactly my point. DeeDee’s statement is extremely consistent with pretty much all available evidence. The timing of it, the alleged interactions, everything about it is supported by everything else we know. That’s why I am using it as a basis for reconstructing the timeline — there is no evidence to suggest that it should not be relied on. I honestly don’t understand why there is this huge skepticism about DeeDee, or all these attempts to claim she’s lying — her story doesn’t contradict anything Zimmerman has said, it only speaks to what Trayvon was saying to DeeDee during those events.
4) He’s a 17 year old kid who is on the phone with his girlfriend, and he may or may not have been the target of some creepy dude who was following him. People who are threatened are often unsure about whether or not they really have been — you get nervous, you eye the person, but you generally don’t call for the cops on the basis of mere unease.
I don’t and can’t know what Trayvon was thinking, but I know I’ve been in similar situations, and never opted to call the cops. Just because your internal alarm bells are going off doesn’t mean you’re going to override your instincts not to cause a needless fuss.
Mark Martinson: None of your conjectures on Martin’s dental work etc. have any remote bearing on the case, since it’s not like GZ got a close-up view of Martin or interviewed him before the fight to assess the likelihood of Martin being a bad guy ‘on a bad trajectory’. WTF does that have anything to do with how justified someone is in shooting a 17yr old kid packing ice tea and Skilttles???
Mark, you’re right, Martin’s dental work has nothing to do with it because GZ never saw it. Similarly, GZ’s gun and Martin’s skittles have nothing to do with it, because obviously from the 911 tapes when GZ called, he didn’t know what Martin had in his hands, so how could Martin possibly have known what GZ had in his waistband? You bring up a good point, because some people like to bring the gun into the issue as if Martin had seen the gun, and the truth is no one knows whether Martin EVER saw the gun.
Zimmerman’s father said that GZ had continued following for a bit because he was between buildings and needed to go to the front where he could see the address to give to the police. He then, purportedly, was heading back to his truck.
Trayvon had no idea whether or not GZ were armed, but you can bet that when he saw this shaven-headed Hispanic following him first in the car and then on foot he was more than a little worried- and probably pumped full of adrenaline.
Now Tray had left a young boy, maybe around 9 or 10. back at the condo while he went out for what was supposed to be a short time. Tray,seeing Zimmerman’s following him and wondering whether he were a gang member out to get a what he might have perceived as a “rival’ race/gang member might well have worried that had he gone directly to the condo, this shaven-headed Hispanic “rival” might have followed him there and perhaps would have forcibly entered. Tray was not armed- he would have had no way to defend himself or the boy. He was very fond of his little-brother-to-be his dad said.
It is therefore quite possible that Tray intentionally doubled-back- to “take care of” the situation. The father said that Tray punched GZ when GZ was reaching for his cell phone; what else would Tray have thought other than GZ were .reaching for a weaweapon?? f cell That is probably how the p of” a potentially dangero”fid” the situation.us situation. This would be a bravtry b\e 17-yr-old’s way pocket- well- wouldn’t it have been logical for of addressing the situation, very likely. another empty-headed move by Zimmerman;
From what GZ’s father said, it seems the punch from Ter
Yarghh- maybe Firefox incompatible with site- sorry about the gobbledegook above. Let me take it from where Tray almost definitely would have thought that GZ were reaching for a weapon, not his cell phone: after Tray supposedly said “What the —- is your problem” and GZ purportedly answers “I don’t have a problem” (if we believe GZ’s father’s account) then are we supposed to believe that GZ thought Tray would just be standing there while he’s reaching for something? Or maybe GZ asked Tray politely to please wait while he calls the police? (I only wish).
So, we get it from the father that Tray punches him only after GZ is reaching for something. Also in the Fox version I read, the “homie”
supposedly uttered by Tray was missing. (There was a video but I read the article instead of accessing it). Since it has been my theory all along that Tray considered it likely that GZ was a gang member, the “homie” would fit.
I have never thought that GZ would have instigated the fight since he had a gun and the boy was much taller, even if skinny (and talking about “skinny” my 6’4″ husband averages about 128 lbs LOL). Why would GZ want to risk physical injury in a fight when he had the gun? Besides, he could lose it in a fight. I would think GZ would have wanted to keep some distance between the two of them.
I don’t believe that when GZ uttered those expletives about punks he was singling out Tray; and I don’t think that he felt burglaries warranted killing the burglars. I do think, however, that he wanted Tray to be picked up by the police- that this guy shouldn’t get away- and so he went too far- he must have known that the boy would see his following him on foot.
It’s as if all logic deserted GZ; he was going into a dimly-lit area where the “suspicious person”- who might very well have had a gun of his own- had just disappeared. If his gun weren’t drawn already, it was insane. Can we imagine anything less than 2 police officers going in- and that with weapons drawn?
By doing this he put himself in potential danger, along with Tray and possibly innocent bystanders if a gun fight would have broken out. This man was totally culpable for what happened that night. He took a gun with him, when he wasn’t supposed to have one when on watch. Yes, the claim is that he was actually on his way to the store, but when he got out of that car and started to follow someone when no crime had been reported, this doesn’t wash.
Tray had nothing with which to defend himself; again, if he intentionally initiated the meeting, it must have been to stop this guy- but, again, Tray had no idea whether GZ had a gun or not, so this was very risky. In a case like this, Tray would have wanted to catch GZ off-guard, which he might very well have done (and this would have been his standing his guard, because how did he know where this guy could pop up?) And would this man, indeed, have run after him to the condo?
To me, everything points to Tray’s initiating the physical conflict- either with that first punch because of GZ’s reaching for something if the father’s version is correct, or if mine is, Tray’s lunging at GZ who has answered Tray’s question “What are you following me for” with his own “What are you doing around here”- (the latter question being rather confrontational). But the lunge would have come if GZ would have had gun in hand, if not directly pointed at the boy. That question implies that you have no business being where you are, and saying that to a tall, “suspicious person” when you have no idea if he is armed or not, when you’re alone in the dark with him, without having a weapon at the ready, would be looney tunes with no hope of merrie melodies…
The lunge and struggle would have been a desperate attempt to wrest the gun from GZ’s hand. Of course one could expect GZ to have injuries, with Tray’s being on top, fighting for his life, as by then, GZ was for his.
In this scenario however, only Tray would have the legal theory of self-defense on his side, even though, of course, GZ was attempting to defend himself- which he ultimately achieved- sort of. I would think that most jurors would realize that an unarmed 17-yr-old would only have reacted as he had if he had good reason to feel his life- and his brother’s as well, perhaps- were in danger. This would be the “stand-your-ground” part.
Seems that I only have trouble in the “reply” mode.
BTW, there was no external safety- just an internal one- on the gun GZ was carrying; it’s delightful- all you have to do is pull the trigger- something that probably anybody’s kid over age 10 could do…
I should add that even if Tray would have lunged at GZ if no gun had been seen, he still would have had good reason to think he might have had a gun or knife in his pocket. How likely would it be for a gang member to be be unarmed? It doesn’t happen. Ironically, this anti-gang person did have.
Vickis, your account simply doesn’t make any sense. A 17yr old kid, with zero history of known violence, no known gang affiliation, and armed with nothing but a bag of skittles and a can of iced tea, is going to attack a possibly/probably-armed gang member? When, according to GZ himself, Martin was moving *away* from GZ.
And what was GZ’s reaction? To get out of his truck….and follow Martin, with a loaded gun. You sure you want to continue claiming that Martin instigating the physical conflict is most plausible? Remember, GZ was in -much- better shape than the initial mug shots that were released – IIRC those pictures are from 6-7 years ago. Oh, and why the mug shot? Because GZ picked a fight WITH A POLICE OFFICER. Further, in the interim, GZ had worked as a security guard – a position you probably need to be in good physical shape – and, more importantly, as a bouncer at **illegal** home parties – i.e., if there’s a skirmish you can’t call the police, so the bouncer has to, you know…’take care of things’. I think there is every reason to believe that GZ felt very confident in his fighting abilities. We’re supposed to believe that this same guy, plus armed with a gun, was going to be intimidated about confronting a skinny teenager? (GZ says on his call to the dispatcher that he thinks Martin is ‘in his late teens’).
I think GZ should tell his father and brother to STFU because they are causing serious harm to GZ’s defense case by making the ridiculous claims. The ‘You’re going to die’ / ‘you got me’ quotes are impossible because WE HAVE THE AUDIO FROM THE FIGHT AND GUN SHOT. All we hear are animal-like shrieks of pure terror. There’s no bad dude talking going on. The father and brother have GZ’s head being ‘slammed into the sidewalk for over a minute’ – look at the surveillance video of GZ 30 minutes after the fight and tell me that he looks like someone that had his head slammed into the sidewalk for over a minute.
The simplest answer is that GZ ran after Martin, found him, confronted him, tried to restrain him for the cops –> scuffle –> wrestling on ground –> gun comes out –> Martin freaks out and goes in ‘fight for life’ mode –> gets shot.
The one part where I do agree with your asssessment is that the only person in the conflict that actually had a legitimate ‘stand your ground’ defense was Martin.
Martin had remained in the area where Zimmerman had watched for some time, and appeared to be walking around, staring, etc. The burglaries in the area were simply break-ins, grabs some stuff and run. Zimmerman started his call by saying there had been break-ins, not burglaries.
When Martin began running. The dispatcher urgently requested to know which direction. This information was significant enough that the dispatcher logged it. It was only after that, that the truck door opened. And it is another 5 seconds before the truck door closed, and a couple more before Zimmerman apparently began moving. Depending on where Zimmerman’s truck was parked, it would be difficult to see where Martin was headed, so getting out of the truck to satisfy the dispatcher’s request is quite reasonable.
Then with Martin likely 200 feet away, Zimmerman did begin to follow. When the dispatcher discovered this, he asked Zimmerman, which Zimmerman readily acknowledged, and the told him the police didn’t need him to do that. Zimmerman acknowledged, and stopped moving. The dispatcher then asked his name.
Zimmerman was waiting for the police officer, and had gone to get the street address (he might have realized by then why the dispatcher wanted a street address, it is what they have to type into their computer).
Zimmerman had not worked as a security guard. The story is that in years when Zimmerman would have been 18 and 21, the anonymous “co-worker” were working for an “agency” which had been hired to provide “security” for “illegal house parties” where they were paid “$50 to $100 under the table”, where he “liked to drink and hang with women like the rest of us:.
The last part sounds like it was the Secret Service.
But the rest sounds like someone was holding a kegger and they were invited to come to the party in case there were gate crashers and were handed two $50s, and maybe asked if they knew anyone else.
I doubt it went like:
Ace Security Service: How may we help you.
Caller: We’re going to be having a party and we need security.
Ace Security Service: Where is the party and how many guests?
Caller: It will be at our house, and maybe 50 or so people in their late teens.
Ace Security Service: Will there be any adults.
Caller: I doubt it, my parents are out of town, and anybody over 21 would probably just go to a club.
Ace Security Service: Will alcohol be served?
Ace Security Service: My liability policy which I pay bazillions of dollars for won’t cover this; I’ll lose my company if anything happens; and any of my employees will lose their CHL. I’ll tell you what. I’ll send a couple of my underage guards over, and you can just hand them $100 in cash and let them drink and hang out. Is it OK if one of them is Peruvian? He looks white, but is bilingual.
Some things in GZ’s background don’t look great. But he had been a watch leader for a while and had called 911 a bunch. I don’t see anything that indicates he didn’t carry out this role in a proper fashion.
I think there is more to come out about TM. In any event, when you look at his trajectory I think it is likely that he would have wound up in prison in the next few years.
The most plausible scenario is that TM doubled back and took a swin at GZ. He felt disrespected. Afer all, he’s a “no limit nigga” by his own admission.
The cops were on the way. Why start a fight with someone when cops will potentially be watching you?
It would be reasonable for TM not to go home for fear that Z would find where he was living.
But the so-called probable cause affidavit says that TM was on the phone with a “friend” (DeeDee) and “attempted to run home but was followed by Zimmerman . . . .” According to the affidavit this was a contemporaneous report by TM to DeeDee.
While we don’t know what happened during the two minutes after Z’s phone call ended, we know that on the call Z reports that TM is running toward the back entrance, which is right near the home. Z loses sight of him and he is out of his sight for at least a minute and a half. TM had more than enough time to get home with a brisk jog.
I imagine a jury could convict on a scenario different from what was claimed by the prosecution, but this scenario is a non-starter.
Martin could have been home at a 30-minute mile strolling pace.
[TM had more than enough time to get home with a brisk jog].
And GZ had more than enough time to get back to his truck.
[I think there is more to come out about TM. In any event, when you look at his trajectory I think it is likely that he would have wound up in prison in the next few years.
The most plausible scenario is that TM doubled back and took a swin at GZ. He felt disrespected. Afer all, he’s a “no limit nigga” by his own admission.]
Nice to know that you don’t even try to hide your racist projecting. Go back to your bridge.
“And GZ had more than enough time to get back to his truck.”
We don’t know that because we don’t know: (1) where Z was when he lost sight of T; (2) where the truck was exactly; and (3) how long the confrontation was before the struggle ensued.
If Z was walking back to the truck as he claimed, it would have been in a hypervigilent manner (walking backwards looking side to side).
And TM would have been walking back to his house in a hypervigilent manner because HE HAD SOME GUY STALKING HIM.
Any excuse you want to make for GZ is even more applicable to TM: GZ was one armed with a gun, calling police about a suspicous individual, getting out of his truck running after the ‘assholes that always get away’.
TM had been to the 7-11 to get a drink and candy.
1. Martin was running in the direction of his home.
2. Zimmerman lost sight of him.
3. The dispatch call doesn’t indicate that z followed him for more than 30 seconds Max.
4. This is why I am suspicious of the girl friend. Following TM around the complex is consistent with the parents and the media narrative not the dispatch call
Mark: your claim is that Trayvon “had more than enough time to get home,” which was three times farther from the scene of the shooting than Zimmerman’s truck was. And yet, given the exact same amount of time, you state that “it isn’t surprising that [Zimmerman] didn’t make it to the truck.” How do you figure this?
These claims do not appear to be compatible with one another.
[3. The dispatch call doesn’t indicate that z followed him for more than 30 seconds Max.]
Huh? The dispatch call lasts for several minutes, with Zimmerman stalking Martin the entire time! And the call and ends with him STILL searching for Martin. How in the world do you go from that to ‘Martin was following GZ around’.
We know exactly what Zimmerman DIDN’T do in the interim period between the end of his dispatch call and the start of the 911 calls that capture the screams and gunshot…he didn’t go back to his truck.
Martin was trying to get -away- from GZ. He was waiting for GZ to leave the area; he didn’t want to go home and possibly have GZ follow him – and note that it was for the exact same reason that GZ didn’t want to give his address out to the dispatch, because he didn’t know where Martin was and didn’t want to say his address, which was very close by.
If GZ had simply gone back to his truck, the two never meet. Instead, GZ kept looking for Martin until he found him.
The dispatch call was a little over four minutes long and for the first two minutes z was in the car and it wasn’t moving.
The prosecuto says t was trying to get home.
Bases on Susans chronology it isn’t surprising that z didn’t make it to the truck.
Zimmerman was watching Martin, until Martin started running. The dispatcher urgently requested that Zimmerman tell him where, and Zimmerman got out of his truck to see. It was about 11 seconds before Zimmerman started moving, likely as Martin was going out of sight.
For the altercation to have occurred where it did, neither Zimmerman or Martin moved very far. They either stayed in the area or returned. Zimmerman did a walk through with the police the day after the shooting, which shows him walking across the T, to get an address, and then was walking back.
The dispatcher told Zimmerman to stop following Martin, and he stopped following. If the dispatcher thought that Zimmerman was at risk, or continuing to follow, he didn’t show it.
At least one neighbor confirms that not only did Z have bandages, but that his nose was swollen up. Still doesn’t prove that Z didn’t jump Trayvon, but lends some authenticity to the claim that Z, not T, was calling for help.
“At least one neighbor confirms that not only did Z have bandages, but that his nose was swollen up….”
From that Reuters article…
“Neighbors of George Zimmerman say he had bandages on his nose and head the day after he shot dead Trayvon Martin…”
And from the body of the article…
“Zimmerman later sought medical treatment for injuries including a broken nose, his former lawyers have said.
Jorge Rodriguez, Zimmerman’s next-door neighbor, told Reuters that when he saw Zimmerman the day after the incident, “he had two big, butterfly bandages on the back of his head, and another big bandage…on the bridge of his nose.” He was talking to a police detective in his driveway.
Rodriguez’s wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple’s account. “I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up,” said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.”
I think the important detail here is “the next day”.
As in possibly after he decided it might be in his best interest to appear to have suffered injuries consistent with his self-defense story (but that the paramedics seem not to have taken notice of on the scene the night before).
His former lawyers only ever spoke wth him over the phone. Did Zimmerman call wherever he received professional medical treatment and authorize the release of his records to those lawyers?
Did any of Zimmerman’s family ever mention exactly when and where Zimmerman received professional medical attention after being released from custody around 10 PM the night before?
If he had a big bandage on the bridge of his nose, could someone watching from a nearby second-story window really be able to tell for sure if it was swollen or not?
I saw someone get a broken nose one time. It caused him pain, and the pain started right away. The police station video of Zimmerman emerging unaided from the back seat of the police car (without, apparently, having ever had the seat belt fastened) over half an hour after the gun was fired did not appear to be showing someone suffering the pain of a broken nose.
Nor did he show, in that video, any signs that his nose needed bandaging, or any sign that the back (not the top) of his head needed bandaging, and the supposed marks on the top of his head in the “enhanced” still from that video are never visible as the video plays.
At the bond hearing Mark O’Mara asked the investigator (Gilbreath) whether he’d like to see to see the medical records of Zimmerman. He said sure.
O’Mara said he’d give them to the State, that it would not be fair to cross-examine him on evidence which he hadn’t seen.
Pingback: Zimmerman: Where's the Probable Cause? - Page 6
Perhaps I could have been clearer.
I think Martin had the opportunity to go back to his house. There was nothing that Zimmerman did that prevented this.
Zimmerman reported that TM was going toward the back entrance (near the house). Z followed him for 20 seconds. It appears that he stopped. For at least one minute Z was walking around, if not stationary.
Certainly TM had enough lead time to get back to the house.
Of course, TM could have taken a wrong turn and run into Z.
But the prosection’s scenario is not consistent with Z following TM “through the complex.”
This just occurred to me. Z reported that TM was heading toward the back entrance. Z believed TM was a stranger up to no good and apparently trying to escape. Even if Z lost sight of TM why not follow him to the back entrance, which was the most likely avenue of escape? Maybe Z thought the back entrance was locked. I don’t know.
From another call it appears that the back gate may be locked, while the front gate works on a pass code. There are two-way car gates and also pedestrian gates, which might not be locked at all.
The neighborhood has a wall on two sides, and there had been reports of pedestrian traffic from apartments and houses on the other sides. There are no guardhouses or anything like that. It is mainly just to stop drive-through traffic.
Two more cents: In my previous post I advanced the idea that the blame of this tragic narrative fell squarely on Zimmerman’s shoulders and I continue to stand by my conclusion even in if the end the tables got turned. Before I present one more argument to support my conclusion I would like to make clear that whatever the background of these individuals was, it is irrelevant to the case at hand. Only the actions of each individual in this particular incident should be considered in order define who in fact committed a negligent act with fatal consequences and is responsible for said act. Did both individuals ignore societal safeguards that led to the tragic events? Yes, Zimmerman prejudge an individual, against well-known police advice went in pursuit of a “suspect;” and, what is most egregious, he armed himself clearly indicating that he was expecting a violent confrontation; hence, the aggressor! Now, what were the safeguards that Trayvon ignored? Trayvon ignored one safeguard: walk away whenever possible. For those who argue that Zimmerman was walking back to his car, I’d like to pose the following questions:
1. How did Trayvon know that Zimmerman was walking back to his car and did not intend to keep hunting him?
2. How do you know that Trayvon was not in so much fear of his life that he concluded that it was time to sink or swim?
3. Could Trayvon have made a decision to maintain radio silence in order to have an advantage over his aggressor making calling 911 an unlikely scenario?
4. Have you ever been in a situation where command of rational thought is momentarily out of your grasp?
5. Who was in more control of rational thought in this situation Zimmerman who knew exactly what his was doing and felt protected by a gun, or Trayvon who by all accounts was experiencing the worst and last nightmare of his life?
Surprisingly, I have experienced such a situation. And I can tell you that rational thought goes out the window in such occasions. I was about 19 years old when the following nightmare fell on my lap. Los Angeles was experiencing a bus strike. I was working the graveyard shift at a bank evolving endless hours of shuffling paperwork. As I was about to go from a brightly lit town street into a dark gargantuan industrial area riding my bicycle in the middle of the night, a man much older than I stopped me by corralling me with his own bicycle, a parked car, and the sidewalk. “Stop! Highway patrol!” he yelled. I know all of you are laughing at such ridiculous attempted to represent a police officer on a bicycle, slightly plump, and wearing civilian clothing. To my credit, I did not panic. I knew immediately the fellow was not well tuned. I made my case that it was useless trying to get anything of value from me. I was riding a bike in the middle of the night to work! That clearly states NO MONEY DUDE! Very politely, I told the man that I was late to work and made an indication that I was about to resume my journey, but he had a different plan and pulled out a knife. I reiterated my case of there being no point in trying to squeeze money out of me, because I had NONE! His shocking replay was that he was not looking for money, but for someone to make sweet love to him (he did not exactly put it like that, but makes the narrative a bit more romantic). At this point, rational thought had not yet escaped me despite of the colossal proportions of my own private nightmare. I knew that there was the very real possibility that after sweet love, sweet disembowelment was to come. I continued to be calm knowing that showing the contrary will spark suspicion and an unpleasant reaction from my lover to be. I calmly proceeded up a rap in the direction he had designated for our amorous rendezvous. This is where you might think that rational thought jumped ship, but you would be wrong. This is where honor made an extremely dangerous decision. I was a not at all strong 6’1” lanky individual who was no match for a heftier almost as tall knife wilding love sick fellow. My choices were to submit to this individual or to flee. The problem is that the fleeing involved crossing a main avenue which although deserted at this time did not precluded it from producing a high speed car across its intersection. I decided that getting ran over by a high speed luxury sedan (if I am going to die, I want to die at the hands of luxury) was a better ending that getting stabbed to death by a lover I did not love nor did I find attractive. Still with my fake calm demeanor I started to peddle slowly up the ramp and without warning (obviously) I speeded up just like I had seen Speedy Gonzales do it many years ago on TV, but with bicycle in this case to crossed from the brightness of our point of encounter into the darkness of what at this point seemed to me to be the catacombs of hell. My bicycle’s gears were no match to feet full of adrenaline. Behind me I could see my pursuer’s silhouette bathed by the street light we were leaving fast behind bestowing him with a golden glow aura. Oh, such a beautifully cinematic scene and, yet so terrifying. My calm demeanor gave way to a frantic attempt to get away as fast as possible and to demand in anger for a factory to be working late into the night. Lady luck was with me that night and pointed at a number of workers loading a truck in a warehouse to my left. All I had to do was to survive a high speed U-turn into the loading area. I had in an instant changed the ending of my nightmare under the very anticlimactic sleepy glow of the artificial lighting helping workers puzzled at the sight of a lanky panting young man and his getaway bicycle. And this, my dear friends, is when rational thought decided it was time to take the night off. Waves of guilt and shame overwhelmed my body. I felt violated and angry. I ask without pause and repeatedly if I was going to let a lowlife make me feel this way. In anger and without any reflection I mounted my bike again and let a silent battle cry filled my head, “I am going to find you m**f**r and I am going to fight you to the death. My hands will squeeze your lifeless body until your eyeballs bleed!” Ladies and gentlemen, was that rational thought? NO! I was saved! I was out of harm’s way! I had no chance of actually winning a fight against a stronger, heavier, deadly armed man! One cannot tell what stupid dentitions one will make on such an overwhelming situation. Yes, I had a chance to stay perfectly save in that loading dock. Fortunately, Lady Luck did not take the night off, and my ex-lover was not as stupid as I was. He was long gone when I went back into the pitch-black night. Had I found him and fought him with my demise as an end, could he claim self-defense? His action caused me to act irrational. He was the catalyst not me. In my case I am willing to accept that a plea of self-defense could be plausible, since I was already in a safe place, but Trayvon could not have known if Zimmerman was still hunting him. Don’t think for a minute that Trayvon was as cool and collected as you are when you are posting. He was experiencing a mixture of fear, anger, desperation, humiliation, and confusion. I know, because I experienced it. Don’t wave you rational explanation and civil discourse at his corpse. He was not the aggressor nor was he the catalyst! He went into kill or be killed mode because he was not as rational as you are now. For the life of me I cannot in good conscious convict and blame the outcome of a tragedy on a human being with an experience so similar to mine. Would you have acted as rational as you sound here if you had been on my shoes or Trayvon’s. Please, if you are a police officer your reaction in these situations does not count because you are trained to deal with this kind of situation (however, we all know that even some police officers are unable to act completely rational in some situations).
The end of my two more cents
Hey SuperBatman. I find it richly ironic that there are those in the liberal community who want Zimmerman punished because Martin felt he was being followed and therefore threatened…..and yet have no problem putting undercover agents on buses to ….folllow people. What if Martin had, instead of punching Zimmerman, were to have gotten on a bus a year from now, felt frightened by an undercover cop, and punched his lights out? More specifically, if you feel like you are being followed or watched, and thus feel threatened, does that permit you to take any action you see fit? I think there has to be more of a direct threat of physical confrontation than merely giving someone a scowl. I do think Trayvon had the right to punch him if Z got into his personal space, but I don’t think you have the right to initiate contact if the other person has ended his “following”. We’ll never know exactly what happened. The state’s evidence is conjecture, and weak at that, so Z wins.
Super batman…are you an author as in your first post you express yourself as a philosopher and the above is riveting! Please check out the blog bcc.list and especially tchioupi .calliopi. She/he has done amazing technical maps, weather pattern, excel sheets showing inconsistent statements by GZ. Please mozy over there and share your brain w/ everyone. Btw, he doesn’t delete anyone and for some reason there are only thoughtful post(both pro GZ and pro TM)
Zimmerman was watching the suspicious person, who was wandering around. If Martin was simply going from point A to point B, he would have covered more ground in the 2 minutes before Zimmerman reported that he ran.
Zimmerman reported that Martin was running. The dispatcher urgently requested which way did Martin run. It was after that that the car door opened, and Zimmerman reported that Martin was running for the other entrance. After the dispatcher asked for clarification what the other entrance meant, Zimmerman explained that it was the back entrance.
It was only then, 11 seconds after Martin had run, that Zimmerman began to follow in Martin’s wake. If Martin was trotting (15 feet per second) and was 50 foot away when he ran, he could easily have been 200 feet away by then.
The dispatcher determined that Zimmerman was moving, and asked if he was following, Zimmerman said yeah, the dispatcher told him that the police did not need him to do that, Zimmerman said OK, his movement slowed (it could simply be that his momentum carried him or he was just short of the southward path and wanted to look around the corner).
The dispatcher did not tell Zimmerman to return to his truck. He asked him his name. Zimmerman said “George” and that “he ran”, indicating he was out of sight. There was another 1-1/2 minutes of talk with the dispatcher, and 1-1/2 minutes before the altercation began. It wouldn’t have happened where it did it Martin had been trying to return home. He may have though he had done so, and was simply walking around, or it is possible that he intentionally confronted Zimmerman.
1. How did Trayvon know that Zimmerman was walking back to his car and did not intend to keep hunting him?
Zimmerman was not hunting him. Martin may have perceived it as such, or may have been intent on confronting Zimmerman.
2. How do you know that Trayvon was not in so much fear of his life that he concluded that it was time to sink or swim?
His girlfriend heard the very beginning of the confrontation. Martin would not have been where he was if he had been fleeing for the previous 3-1/2 minutes. If he were surprised, he might have perceived that it was time to fight. Or he might have sought out Zimmerman.
3. Could Trayvon have made a decision to maintain radio silence in order to have an advantage over his aggressor making calling 911 an unlikely scenario?
Martin’s phone was connected to his girlfriend for 4 minutes. She has reportedly said that Martin was attempting to run home, and reportedly heard the beginning of the confrontation, when the call was disconnected.
It is not known whether they talked during the 4 minutes, or she only listened as he was running. She had been on the phone. She knew that a creepy guy was following her boyfriend. She knew that her call had been disconnected, and she could not reconnect. She would have heard that her boyfriend had been shot where he was visiting (she talked to him for 6 hours that day). She might have come to a reasonable conclusion that the creepy guy had shot her boyfriend.
She was contacted by Martin’s family’s lawyers after they found the phone call in Martin’s billing statement. Certainly odd.
5. Who was in more control of rational thought in this situation Zimmerman who knew exactly what his was doing and felt protected by a gun, or Trayvon who by all accounts was experiencing the worst and last nightmare of his life?
If Martin attacked after a surprise encounter, then Zimmerman has a right of self-defense, especially if the attack has gone on for 45 seconds (of calls for help).
It seems to me that the arguments to defend Zimmerman’s action are that he was not hunting for Trayvon and that he acted in self-defense. The self-defense argument can also be applied to Trayvon if he believed his life to be in danger even if he had not been confronted, but perceived his pursuer to have such intention.
Jimrtex asserts, “Zimmerman was not hunting him.” while at the same time tries to excuse the fact that he does not stop looking for Trayvon after the office tells him to stop, “The dispatcher determined that Zimmerman was moving, and asked if he was following, Zimmerman said yeah, the dispatcher told him that the police did not need him to do that, Zimmerman said OK, his movement slowed (it could simply be that his momentum carried him or he was just short of the southward path and wanted to look around the corner).” Zimmerman continued to move for about 15 seconds after the office tells him to stop and 13 seconds after he says OK. It is only fair to assume that he continued his pursuit after he ended the call.
Now, let’s punch some holes to the Zimmerman follow to the letter law and innocent beyond reproach guy story.
First, let’s not forget that he had a gun with him showing that he does not really care much about following what the police tells him to do. He had attended police meetings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITiCsugqoN4) regarding neighborhood watch where I am sure he was told numerous times not to pursue a suspect, not to carry a gun, and to always have a partner with him while doing neighborhood watch.
Second, the lead investigator believed there was sufficient evidence to arrest Zimmerman (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57405716-504083/trayvon-martin-lead-investigator-wanted-george-zimmerman-arrested-the-night-of-the-fatal-shooting/).
Third, experts and the mother agree that it is Trayvon calling for help and not Zimmerman (http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-case-who-screams-on-911-call and http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w-boyd-jr/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-charged_b_1420381.html).
Fourth, the state attorney and two police experts concluded that Zimmerman disregarded the dispatcher’s instructions and continued to follow Trayvon and subsequently confronted him (http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/69353440.pdf)
Fifth, your turn.
You leave out a lot and ignore certain key points. First, the only reliable phone evidence to pinpoint locations of Z and the suspect is the 4 minutes dispatcher tape. As far as what the girlfriend says, it is hearsay since it is what Crump says she says and completely misses what happened during the several minutes after the suspect ran. Where was he?
In the dispatcher tape at about 1:34 the dispatcher tells Z : “just let me know if he does anything else” and more, making it clear that he wants Z to observe and report what the suspect is doing which, up to the point the suspect runs, is all Z does. Even when in close proximity to the suspect (from the tape) Z never exits his truck or even attempts to talk to the suspect but instead just reports. After the suspect runs, Z exits the truck (door closing and consistent with the earlier instruction to observe the suspect that you omitted) and the dispatcher, hearing him move, advises Z to not continue following (to protect Z not the suspect) and Z immediately says ‘OK’ and stops which all takes about 10 seconds. A view of the map shows that, jogging, Z would be very near the scene of the attack. Looking at the map, the approximate location of Z after 10 seconds, and the fact that Z continues talking for about 2 more minutes WITHOUT SEEING THE SUSPECT, it is clear that the suspect left the immediate area or was hiding (all Z said he saw was that the suspect had started running towards the back entrance but no more). From where Z stopped he had visibility in all directions and didn’t see the suspect for at least the next two minutes.
So the girlfriend will have to explain where Trayvon went for several minutes that wasn’t in sight of the intersecting paths and why Trayvon then returned to where Z had stopped when he could have easily returned home several ways (or called 911 himself) without ever coming near Z.
The hearsay girlfriend statement of “why are you following me”, if it really happened, doesn’t mean much because it is still consistent with Trayvon attacking first after returning to confront Z. And it is obvious Trayvon had to return (from somewhere) to confront Z (who had hardly moved from where he had stopped to continue talking with the dispatcher). The dispatcher tape makes it clear that Z was no longer “following” a suspect he no longer could see (and continued not seeing for at least 2 more minutes from where he stopped) and was only arranging with the dispatcher to meet the police.
Once the clear evidence that Trayvon returned from somewhere after over 2 minutes of not being in sight is absorbed, the overwhelming conclusion is that Trayvon returned to confront Z not that Z had “followed” a suspect he could not see to where the confrontation happened which was within feet of where Z stopped a full 2 minutes previously.
Z only fired a single shot when he says he was on his back with his head being banged against a cement sidewalk. Forensics will verify or disprove this statement. If correct, then he acted in a perfectly responsible manner of only using his gun for a single shot when he felt he could suffer death or maiming (wouldn’t you have that fear if your head was being bashed against a sidewalk repeatedly?). In fact, if Z didn’t fire that single shot we never would have had all these headlines and Z would have just been another death or maiming statistic and Trayvon would have disappeared in seconds.
Susan, stop using the word “stalking.” The entire dispatcher tape (note a police dispatcher is on the line) only shows Z was reporting what he saw (and at the direction of the dispatcher who told him do do so at 1:34 in the tape). The only “following” was for about 10 seconds after Z lost sight of the suspect and even that following was consistent with the earlier instruction to report the suspect’s actions. When advised to stop (to protect Z from a possibly violent suspect turning on him), Z said ‘OK’ and stopped. Your spin is that “apparently” (where do you get that from) Z continued stalking/following a suspect he did not see when there is no evidence to support that and the tape shows that for 2 minutes all Z was doing was trying to arrange where to meet the police. Yet, you insist on perpetuating the myth Z was ‘stalking’ a suspect … while all the time on the phone with a police dispatcher!
As for your spin on the fight and confrontation, it is just that, spin. Z has marks on the back of his skull consistent with his story, he has a broken nose, and you yourself say all eyewitness accounts are unreliable so there is no “beyond a reasonable doubt” way to disbelieve Z’s story particularly when all the hard evidence supports it.
I use stalking because at least two versions of Zimmerman’s second-hand reported story repeat the claim that Zimmerman was ducking through houses to try and find Trayvon, when Trayvon attacked him. If these second-hand reports are accurate, this is stalking and following.
Your spin is that you are choosing to ignore the evidence that reports Zimmerman was in fact following Trayvon, and giving overly constrained interpretations to the rest of the evidence.
And of course there is a way to discredit Zimmerman’s story beyond a reasonable doubt — if in fact Zimmerman’s story can be shown to be untruthful or contradicted by physical evidence, then a jury can find beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman’s decision to shoot Trayvon was not justified under the law.
good reply jimrtex. Also, it was reported that Trayvon’s father initially told police investigators that the voice calling help (assuming there was only one voice — not necessarily a good assumption) was not Trayvon’s. I find it very strange that in this day and age of voice messages, video taping, even answering machine messages, nobody can locate a voice sample for Trayvon — or are they all being systematically destroyed?
Let’s say it was TM screaming does that prove that GZ was the aggressor? The two encounter each other, they argue and at some point someone hits, and there are no eyewitnesses to who hit first. TM is on top and he is kinda ruffing GZ up
hitting head on the pavement, so GZ thinks that he needs to get off of this concrete over on the grass. I am sure that they are rolling around on the ground, that what you do when you are fighting, most fights are not stationary. The two are rolling this way and that way, the gun is spotted; now the focus is on the gun. GZ thinking that TM is going after the gun he reaches for it and the struggle for the gun is on. The two is pulling over the gun, GZ have the butt of the gun and TM has the barrel of the gun. Neither one of these guys are letting this gun go because they don’t know the mind of the other. Now, I don’t know about you, I am not about to turn a gun a loose and if I am the one the gun is pointing at, you better believe I am about to start screaming and hollering for help, even if I threw the first punch and delivered the first body slam. Picture this, GZ hands are wet because it is raining and he is losing his grip on the gun, he has a choice, he can turn the gun a loose, if he does he doesn’t know if TM is going to turn it on him and kill him, he can’t get away because Trayvon is on top of him, maybe GZ is screaming and moaning for help because he realizes that he is at a point where he is going to have shoot or be shot. The experts that say that it was not GZ’s voice on the 911 call, has proven absolutely nothing, they may have proven that the screams for help that was recorded on the 911 call was not GZ, but that does not proven that at some point GZ wasn’t screaming, after all he was on the bottom with at least 160lbs on top of him, this probably was enough to prevent his screams for help from loud enough to be picked up on the 911 call.
The thing that have puzzled me the most about DeeDee is she is on the phone with Trayvon and he tells her that this strange person is following him, he runs, according to her statement the strange person eventually catches up with him again. They confront each other, she hears what sounds like a push, his earpeice must have fallen because his phone went dead. My earpeice falls often and my phone doesn’t go dead. She calls him back and he doesn’t answer his phone. DeeDee heard all of this, she stated that Trayvon was scared, did she call him back to see if everything was alright. Does she call and it goes to voicemail, how many times does she try to get in touch with him considering everything that had just happened. Were she not worried about what this strange man may have done to Trayvon, after all she heard a push. This incident took place in the early evening, how many times during the night did she try to get him because she was worried. When he doesn’t answer did she send text messages, saying call me I am worried, what happened? She is aware of what has gone on she can’t get him on his phone, does she call 911 because she is worried, does she call his daddy or his mother, was she concerned enough to go tell her mother what had just happen, so an adult could start making calls so this young man could check on his safety. DeeDee didn’t have a clue who this man was and what he was going to do with her boyfriend. It doesn’t appear that this young lady was worried about Trayvon at all, and my question is why? Could it be because doing the time when TM had lost Zimmerman, instead of going home, he told DeeDee that he was going to go see what was this dude’s problem. He had already told DeeDee that he wasn’t going to run, why because he didn’t want his girl to think that he was some kind of punk running from so guy. So to keep his girl from thinking that he was some kind of scary punk he tells her that he going to go see what this guy’s deal is. Trayon did one of two things, he ran home toward the back entrance, turned around came back to deal with the guy who was following him or he hid in the unpaved cut through between building one and two that faced Twin Trees while staying on the phone with DeeDee he came up behind GZ from the left. This is when DeeDee heard him asked GZ why are you following me? DeeDee knew there physical contact between the two, because she heard a push. The reason why she didn’t call 911 or anyone else she like most 16 years girls thought that her boyfriend are tough and could handle this dude. Anytime this young girl had not known what was about to go on she would have been screaming and hollering just like Trayvon was on the 911 call. Somebody help, I think Trayvon is in trouble. She knows more than she is telling but she is tellinf what they want her to tell.
Nola, you make some good points.
Top down, the problem with the whole stalking argument is that except for a brief 10 seconds, Z (during which time Z is only following in the direction the suspect disappeared after being told earlier to report the suspect’s movements) wasn’t pursuing the suspect because he could not see him, including throughout the remaining 2 minutes of the continuous dispatcher call once Z stopped.
Also, everyone ignores the fact that the tape shows Z immediately took the dispatcher’s advice to not pursue a possibly dangerous suspect who could turn on him, when he said ‘OK’ and then stopped within seconds (A dispatcher would give such advice to protect a block watcher).
DeDe’s story (if it really is what she said; remember it is Crump’s
hearsay that was reported, not her actual statement to police) about Trayvon asking why he is being followed had to occur just before the fight because her call began after the dispatcher call started and that call shows there was no contact with the suspect throughout its 4 minute length and it ended about 1 minute before the fight. Under those circumstances, such a statement by Trayvon is much more likely to be confrontational on Trayvon’s part since he disappeared for over 3 minutes after Z stopped and did not go to the apt he was staying which was a short distance away. Also, the fight happened very near where Z stopped further showing Trayvon returned to confront Z not the other way around
I’m not convinced that the voice “experts” are really experts. Even left winger Alan Derschowitz questions whether their opinions are admissible.
There is doubt as to whether the shooting took place near pavement as Zimmerman has apparently reported to others by saying that TM was banging his head into the pavement. I’m not sure how this hurts Zimmerman. We all misremember stressful events. In addition, look at the two lacerations on the back of his head. Martin must have been banging his head pretty hard into wet ground to cause those kinds of injuries.
“I use stalking because at least two versions of Zimmerman’s second-hand reported story repeat the claim that Zimmerman was ducking through houses to try and find Trayvon, when Trayvon attacked him. If these second-hand reports are accurate, this is stalking and following.”
Would you happen to have links to this story?
“Your spin is that you are choosing to ignore the evidence that reports Zimmerman was in fact following Trayvon, and giving overly constrained interpretations to the rest of the evidence.”
Your and the prosecutor’s spin is just like in a newspaper article where they keep repeating things to make it appear that there are multiple events.
Under Susan’s definition of stalking, probably every volunteer neighborhood watchman or non-police watchman is a stalker of suspicious suspects. Cute word play. The dispatcher tape is the best HARD EVIDENCE that documents exactly what was said by Z at the time and his actions (which, at the time, he had no reason to lie about) and his actions can be easily seen by looking at a map in conjunction with his and the dispatcher’s statements on the 4 minute tape. The tape makes it clear Z was only observing and reporting to the dispatcher a suspect’s movement from his parked truck and Z was simply following all suggestions of the dispatcher to aid the police when they arrived.
The dispatcher first asked Z to report on the suspect’s actions (1:34 on the tape) and Z does this from his truck (not the action of a stalker but instead a normal action, under the direction of the police, to be expected in such a situation). His ‘pursuit’ is for about 10 seconds after the suspect disappeared and is completely consistent with the dispatcher’s suggestion to keep reporting on the suspect’s action by trying to keep him in sight( which, incidentally, he never is able to do until the actual confrontation several minutes later which was AFTER the call ended 2 minutes later). That is not stalking and if it is, then millions of concerned citizens aiding the police would now be in jail.
After the 10 seconds from leaving his truck, to try to see where the suspect went, in order to report that information, Z stops at the further suggestion of the dispatcher (Z has no where to go since the suspect has now disappeared) and Z keeps coordinating with the dispatcher where to meet the police for the next 2 minutes.
Z stopped looking for where the suspect ran after 10 seconds when the dispatcher changed his advice, based on the fear (and probably police protocol) of not having a citizen actively run after a suspect to protect the citizen from the suspect attacking the citizen — which is what happened here when Trayvon came back 3 minutes later to pick a fight with the man he thought was following him.
The fact that Trayvon may or may not have thought Z was a strange person following him does not change Z and the dispatcher’s prospective of a suspicious suspect worthy of the police coming to check him out. And all of the actions of Z and dispatcher were perfectly normal when acting under that clear premise.
Even ‘profiling’ based on suspicious behavior is perfectly legal when and was how Trayvon was caught in school with drugs, burglary tools and women’s jewelery after he was acting suspiciously (no allegation of racial profiling there). What is illegal (but still not dispositive on a self defense claim) is using race as the principal ‘profile’ event — and that doesn’t mean because a suspect is black he, automatically, was profiled. There is no evidence of “racial” profiling (except for a doctored tape NBC created) and even the prosecutor doesn’t allege “racial” profiling.
When Z stopped after 10 seconds (saying ‘ok’ and following the dispatcher’s second advice) and 2 more minutes elapsed where Z did not see, let alone ‘follow’ the suspect (how do you follow someone who disappeared? He could be anywhere), all assumptions of ‘pursuit’ ended (and even if Z for about one minute until the attack occurred looked along the side of houses near where he stopped after the call (and there is no proof that happened), Z wasn’t told to blindfold himself or to return to his truck or to stop looking to report if he again saw the suspect. He was only advised to stop running after the fleeing suspect to protect Z!
Trayvon returned 3 minutes after running because he was angry and embarrassed in front of his girlfriend for running previously and wanted to confront the man he perceived was following him.
Anonymous, that’s probably the most likely explanation. Otherwise, we’re being asked to believe that GZ lost TM, then found him, then confronted him, then took a major beating from TM while TM is simultaneously screaming for his life, and that at no time did TM seek out the confrontation but was merely trying to get home. Can we at least acknowledge now that TM wished to engage, whether or not we conclude GZ did? GZ still has the explanation that he was merely trying to keep TM in sight, not that he was wanting to confront TM. What is TM’s explanation for not going straight home?
I ought to say this: despite our differences of opinion, I very much appreciate Susan putting the diagram and timeline together; it’s been the best way we’ve had to argue the details of the case, and we have a debt of gratitude to Susan for doing what the news media should have done but did not.
Agree, this is great detail, and an excellent job Susan has done but disagree the news media should have done it.
The Sanford police should have done it, starting a detailed investigation the very moment they were called about it. Collecting and securing evidence, measuring distances, recording injuries.
Susan’s map is a good depiction of the known relevant locations.
Here is the full recording of the dispatcher – Zimmerman conversation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAfrCkJIqx0 .
I suggest everyone disentangle the hearsay statements about the girlfriend’s conversation since the dispatcher tape gives the overall picture of locations and time lines best, and it is hard evidence. The girlfriend’s call started after the dispatcher call started so there was no confrontation until after the dispatcher call ended which was about 1 minute from the fight since any confrontation would have been on the dispatcher tape.
The photograph of the back of a head that may be Zimmerman’s shows blood pulled down by gravity from a straight line across the back (not the top) of that head, indicating that it may have hit the edge of the sidewalk.
How it did so cannot be determined by looking at the photo.
Perhaps Zimmerman slipped on the wet grass.
Perhaps Martin knocked him down.
Perhaps Zimmerman slipped on Martin’s blood.
From the photo you can’t tell.
You also can’t tell if it happened before or after the gun was fired.
One thing that puzzles me, the photo I’ve seen that purports to be of Martin’s cell phone records showing the 2 calls with the girlfriend also shows a call to 911 at 12:30 in the afternoon on the day of Martin’s funeral.
Where did you this photo of his calls?
One thing that puzzles me, the photo I’ve seen that purports to be of Martin’s cell phone records showing the 2 calls with the girlfriend also shows a call to 911 at 12:30 in the afternoon on the day of Martin’s funeral. unitron
I don’t remember where I saw the phone record photo before (more than one place), but I just found another instance of it here:
about 4 pictures down.
Thanks, I am familiar with the site. For some reason, they come up with a lot of good info not found in MSM .
Found original source again
Anybody know make, model, color of Zimmerman’s truck?
I am here but here is an interesting outside observation by a friend in NJ.. unedited.
My feelings, Zimmerman followed him, Trayvon got pissed off that this guy was following him and he let his anger get the best of him and he attacked Zimmerman for “disrespecting” him. That’s how the young “gangbangers” think. In Trayvon’s mind, if he doesn’t eventually turn around and confront Zimmerman, than that makes him a punk.
So, he walks away, and he walks away and all the while he’s getting pissed that this guy is following him. He feels like he’s being treated like a punk and he’s not, he’s a gangbanger, and that kicks in and he confronts Zimmerman. Zimmerman, unknowingly, pushed him to that threshold.
I’m just throwing some thoughts out…
I do know how the gangbanger thing goes. They will leave you alone, they will walk away, but only so far. When you don’t back off, and they start to feel “disrespected”, then all bets are off. Some have a higher threshold or more patience than others before they reach that threshold. The worst of the worst, have no threshold at all and incarceration isn’t a deterrent. Chances are, they grew up incarcerated and have a rap sheet as long as your arm…mostly violent crimes and an escalation in violence.
There are gangs up here Wayne. You acknowledge them and you’re good, but know that you’re being watched. You walk by and look the other way, or don’t eyeball them and you’re gonna get hassled. They shoot each over other “territory”. We’re talking about one block in a neighborhood, to the block next to it. How did this come about, I dunno. Why are they willing to get locked up for 10-15 or 25 in state prison over something like “territory”, I dunno.
I know the ones that I know, they have no family, they have nothing to live for, their parents are in prison or addicted to drugs or alcohol. A lot of them live with Aunts and grandparents. They have nothing to lose and jail is where some or most of their friends are anyway. They just don’t care. They don’t value their lives, their future, their prospects to be able to become something. So, they place even less of a value on your life.
As a teenager and when I wasn’t doing so well, as an adult, I went through these neighborhoods. I was good as long as I was with one of them. Outside of that, I’m dead or at least in the hospital from a beating. As long as I’m with one of them, I’m good. I may catch some verbal flack, but that’s where it ends because I’m a dollar sign….and it’s all about money and respect.
In NJ and Philly, shop owners get killed for $100 in the cash register. There’s no value on life. It’s bad. I think I said before, you don’t need to go to Iraq or Afghanistan to enter a war zone, just come up here…. Between just Philly and Camden, not even including North Jersey, there’s at least one murder a day, most times 2 or 3. It’s a war zone.
As we speak, the Philly City Council is trying to outlaw gun ownership altogether….it’s the 2nd amendment in reverse. They figure if they make all gun ownership illegal than that will get more guns and criminals off the street.
Ironically, a homeowner in Philly, with a handgun registered to himself was able to shoot a few would be armed robbers from entering his townhouse. He’s not charged, he had a registered handgun and he had every right to use it. He killed two of the would be armed robbers and injured the other two.
Good for him, right?
But the mayor and city council want to ban all gun ownership in Philadelphia County, which includes Philadelphia City. Think Tampa within what, Hillsborough county?
The bond hearing was quite impressive. The lead investigator all but admited that the state doesn’t have a case.
Everyone should start disentangling Trayvon’s perception of a stranger following him for no reason with the perception of Z, the dispatcher and the police in a situation where perceived suspicious actions are observed in a suspect (note the use of the word ‘perceived’ since even the case of a faulty suspicion often happens, yet results in persons placed under suspicion and quick exonerated when a police officer obtains more information).
Everyone quickly seized on the (still unverified) hearsay word of the girlfriend that Trayvon said “why are you following me,” which, even if true, was Trayvon’s perception alone and has no legal impact on the issue of attack and self-defense.
Preliminary, ad hoc questioning happens all the time and rarely results in the subject attacking the questioner (usually the police). It is the attack that is a crime not the questioning. There is not an iota of evidence that Z confronted the suspect and the 4 minute dispatcher tape proves otherwise. It lasted up until about 1 minute from the fight and only shows Z trying to report to the dispatcher the actions of a suspect, at the request of the dispatcher at 1:34 in the tape, and Z deliberately keeping his distance and not talking to the suspect even when the suspect passed within feet of the truck Z was sitting in. The ‘pursuit’ was simply for less than 10 seconds to keep a suspect in view after he disappeared down the path in order to continue reporting. Z immediately stopped when the dispatcher advised him not to follow a fleeing suspect, to protect Z not the suspect.
Even the purported version of events, told via Crump, of the girlfriend’s conversation lends credence to Trayvon doing the confronting after considering his 3 minute absence and that the attack site was feet from where Z stopped after leaving his truck and continued speaking for 2 minutes with the dispatcher to arrange a meeting place with the arriving police.
‘Profiling’ (a perfectly legitimate technique used all the time and distinct from ‘racial’ profiling) is done all the time so the real issue is whether Trayvon, upset with being subject to suspicion, first attacked Z or the other way around. It strongly appears that Trayvon initiated the confrontation by returning to confront and, most likely, attack Z for the perceived insult of being watched. The time lag during which Trayvon disappeared, the closeness of his ultimate destination, the location of Z after his 10 second jog from his truck, Z’s continued 2 minute conversation with the dispatcher, and the closeness of the attack site to where Z had stopped after leaving his truck, make it highly likely Trayvon was doing the confronting and attacked first in reaction to a perceived insult and embarrassment in front of this girlfriend who was on the phone at the time he first ran.
TM saying “why you following me” is verified by GZ…different words, same gist…
nothing in the girlfriends statements (As mentioned here) says GZ did anything or TM did anything…just what she heard…it is damn near the most neutral thing I’ve ever heard…I’m shocked to have read that site previously linked demonizing her…and I do not understand the suspicion of lying here.
If she wanted to lie she could’ve said ANYTHING…so why something neutral?
Looking at ABC’s rendition of the phone call between Trayvon and his girlfriend ( http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T3CSmmGKnNV ) you can understand why ABC’s original video of Z arriving at the police station was edited to add ABC’s logo to obscure Z’s head and a grainy video was used to make it appear there was no harm to Z. The ABC/Crump rendition of the girlfriend’s call makes no sense when compared to the hard evidence of the 4 minute dispatcher tape.
Here is the key girlfriend hearsay statement, as stated by Crump in the ABC article, “Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he’d managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.”
The dispatcher tape shows that for 3 minutes from Trayvon running (until the end of the dispatcher’s taped call) Z never even saw the suspect and there was no contact between the two, since any contact would have been on the recording. So there was a 3-4 minute gap between the two Crump sentences. This, by itself and along with the location of Z once he stopped in less than 10 seconds from his truck, makes “cornering” near impossible. How was “cornering” physically done for it to be consistent with the tape and where Z stopped which was very near the attack site? Where was Trayvon for that entire time? “Cornering” by Z was impossible since he had stopped immediately after the dispatcher advised him not to follow a fleeing suspect (to protect Z not the suspect) after he had disappeared and Z simply remained in place to coordinate with the dispatcher where to meet the police. The taps shows Z never saw the suspect for at least 2 more minutes after stopping and continuing to talk to the dispatcher.
Trayvon, when he started running was, at most, 30 seconds from where he was staying and far ahead of Z.
You truly have the patience of Job. It is amazing to me how you have so calmly, consistently, and repeatedly argued against bias and emotion and calmly responded over and over about the same points to the same posters who seem incapable of processing your logic and dispassionate reasoning all the while staying consistent with the known facts and public statements. I would have reached a point of exhaustion with a sense of futility by the end of the first dozen posts that you responded to.
The posters who refuse to concede your convincing analysis which also exposes the inconsistent and the irrational have offered the best proof imaginable for an old saying:
“There are none so blind as those who will not see”.
Thank you for the best analysis, presentation of the facts, and explanation of the applicable law to be found anywhere concerning the Trayvon Martin homicide.
I’ll be back.
I’m inclined to believe, from this diagram and the excellent reconstruction of events here and wagist, now including statements from zimmerman et al., that 1) george was not going to let another asshole get away. 2) he didn’t want to simply go to the back entrance in his truck and thereby secure the only other reasonable exit, knowing the cops were coming to the front. That leads me to 3) he was eager to step out of his truck at night, despite the suspicious, drug addled, something’s wrong with him, possibly armed guy out there, particularly because he was armed. It is not a stretch at all to think that the delay in getting out of his truck was to get his gun, as it is very uncomfortable to drive with a gun concealed in your waistband. tepped out with the gun, as it is uncothe 911 and dispatchm Look at georges alleged head wound. Look at the gun. Could he not have hit himself with it, realizing he
Sorry, phone sent that before I was done…see below…
I’m inclined to believe, from this diagram and the excellent reconstruction of events here and wagist, now including statements from zimmerman et al., that 1) george was not going to let another asshole get away. 2) he didn’t want to simply go to the back entrance in his truck and thereby secure the only other reasonable exit, knowing the cops were coming to the front. That leads me to 3) he was eager to step out of his truck at night, despite the suspicious, drug addled, something’s wrong with him, possibly armed guy out there, particularly because he was armed. It is not a stretch at all to think that the delay in getting out of his truck was to get his gun, as it is very uncomfortable to drive with a gun concealed in your waistband. So he made a conscious effort to take the gun, and not much of a further stretch to think this wanna be cop was carrying th pistol in his hand, cocked and locked. You don’t need much more than that to be considered an aggressor.
But that’s all been hashed out over and over. Let me raise two issues that I have yet to see: Look at the gun. The head wound looks an awful lot like he hit himself with the gun in his right hand… and the blood is not smeared, doesn’t look like he had been moving his head….or even having it slammed it the sidewalk.
And he clearly lied in the bond hearing…he said he didn’t realize it was a kid, but clearly said late teens in the call to the cops…which was NOT a 911 call, it was a call to COPS, so this whole business about him “not having to heed” the operator is nonsense. He wants to be a cop so bad he can taste it.
Absolutely no reason to get out of the car…just drive to the rear entrance and wait. He wanted to be a cowboy, and he now needs to have his actions judged by an objective test of reasonableness.
If you mean the blood dripping down like icicles on the back of his head in the recently released cell phone picture, I think that horizontal line is too straight to be caused by anything readily to hand except the edge of the sidewalk.
And that line is too straight and pristine for his head to have hit that edge more than once.
onlyiamunitron, there were two cuts and other bumps. The skin doesn’t necessarily have to break every time a head is slammed against concrete.
I’m curious about the “photographer” of the bloody back of George Zimmerman’s head – how did he/she see gunshot residue on Trayvon Martin if Martin was shot in the chest and laying face down?
Before you guys thrash me for saying what I think, let me digress into some good legal techincalities here.
The immunity under stand your ground is odd, in that there is no common method of asserting it. If you are charged, you may raise it by a motion to dismiss, but when you make such a motion in Florida, you must thereby Admit the material allegations of the states case. If you lose the motion to dismiss, you are left with the admission. The evidence is viewed in the light most favorable to the state, with allreasonable inferences going in the states favor.
On the other hand, if the defendant pleads in a creative manner, such as a motion or petition for determination of immunity,no such admission is made as to the states case, and the presumption in favor of the state is absent as well.
My gut feeling is that immunity is not clear,and the judge is going to let it go to trial. Won’t get murder, but lesser included manslaughter is a strong possibility given the fact that martin was unarmed and not engaged in a forcible felony, and zimmerman was not minding his own business when he allegedly stood his ground–he was directing an effort to apprehend a suspicious person….who had done nothing.
First,allow me to say that it is very clear that florida does not have an established procedure for presentation of the SYG immunity.
You may be confusing standard of proof with presumptions. You have stated that the motion to dismiss is based on a standard of a preponderance, but then you went on to say that the state must prove “beyond a reasonable doubt” that Z cannot show a valid self defense claim”. These both cannot be true.
. George has the burden of establishing his immunity. It ithe manner in which he presents his claim that will determine the procedure. In a typical motion to dismiss, the state need only traverse and the motion is usually denied. In a syg case, the facts are seldom undisputed; the judge has to make a determination of reasonableness of ggeorges deadly response to the alleged threat. No matter how presented, george is ggoing to have to commit to a version of events, and the judge will have to decide if his use of force was justified given the facts presented at the hearing. This is a mixed question of law and fact, and I just don’t see the judge making such a close call in such a huge case when he doesn’t have to…punt to the jury, they will hear it, and the standard is even easier for george then- raising a “reasonable doubt” is much less of a burden than establishing by a preponderance.
Dear Susan, I heard the click of the gun while listening to the 911-call/tape ( !!). It seems Mr. Zimmerman was already cocking his gun while talking to the dispatcher. Also the ringing of the keys in the ignition as he gets out of his car proves he is already on foot to pursue the poor kid with gun in hand. SUSAN, could you please comment on this and if possible point this out to the prosecutor–THEY MUST NOT MISS THIS (if I am right) IN TRIAL!!!
See my reply in the other thread.
And are you quite certain that the sound you heard could not have been caused by some other metal to metal contact?
At what time did you hear the click?
Another thing I was wondering…does that gun have a safety or no?
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No confusion here on the preponderance of evidence standard for dismissal.
Z has different defenses at different stages of the legal process. Here is one of the best explanations of his options I have seen, including an explanation of the legislative basis for an evidentiary hearing to dismiss using on a preponderance of evidence standard. http://reason.com/blog/2012/04/12/even-if-zimmerman-loses-a-pretrial-motio
I only have one problem with the above article, which is the statement “If Zimmerman’s account of his fight with Martin is true, he had no opportunity to safely retreat, so the right to “stand your ground” (the “broad protections” mentioned by the Times) would not apply.”
Any struggle by Z, even from the ground, to flee would meet the requirements of an attempt to “safely retreat.” He tried, but failed to get off the ground to escape but was prevented from doing so.
30 lbs heavier than Martin? Sadly lacking facts for an article that claims to state the facts.
WOW! More misinformation, straw-man speculation, preposterous attributions to “Zimmerman’s” version of events then I ever thought possible in a blog! More chaff being thrown off here than a plane evading a heat seeking missile.
If anyone wants to understand what happened, take the time to simply listen to the 4 minute dispatacher – Zimmerman tape. It describes in complete detail everything happending from Zimmerman’s point of view up until 1 minute of the fight. Reading this blog I would think the two actors were in a complex undeciperalble physical maze with the many convoluted movements and explanations described and postulated in this “minute by minute” account. The map layout of the relevant area is as simple as can be. Zimmerman is sitting in a parked truck right by a path that leads to the back exit which is where Trayvon first runs down. There are two rows of buildings to the right of the path and Trayvon can take either a right at one intersecting path or continue out the back exit and take another right down the street. Either way he gets to the apt he is staying at which is about 100 yds away using either route (path is at the back, the street the front of the destination buildinb).
Until Trayvon ran, from the beginning ot the tape, Zimmerman was sitting in his truck watching and reporting to the dispatcher Trayvon’s movements. Trayvon passes close to the truck and Zimmerman reports that event but stays in the truck. Trayvon then runs down the path and disappears. Zimmerman then gets out of his truck and runs or jogs down the path for about 10 seconds to see where Trayvon went until the dispatcher advises him to not follow and Zimmerman says ‘OK’ and stops. They continue talking for about 2 more minutes with Trayvon still out of sight. The call then ends. The fight occurs about 1 minute later.
The real problem is that Trayvon could so easily have simply gone home. He was in front of Zimmerman no matter which path he would use to get to his home (either the intersecting path or the street outside the back exit). Obviously, Trayvon returned to where Zimmerman had stopped (near the site where the fight occurred) and most likely he confronted Zimmerman for the insult of having looked at or “followed” him.
If I didn’t know any better, then I might conclude the rest of the abject speculation in this blog is deliberately designed to obsfucate the essential facts as clearly stated in the dispatcher tape, and that the Zimmerman’s family “versions” being presented are simply fabrications deliberately used to discredit Zimmerman — classic straw man tactics.
Just out of curiosity — you do realize that, when you post a comment on a blog, the blog owner can see your IP, right?
Which would mean, even though you’ve adopted a new username, that doesn’t prevent me from seeing that you’re still the exact same commenter that has posted almost two dozen other equally inane and pointless comments over the past five days?
Any further comments from this IP will be deleted.
Also please go learn what a straw man argument actually is.
The dispatcher asks if Zimmerman is following him (Martin) and getting an affirmative response says “Okay, we don’t need you to do that”. At that point it’s about 2 minutes, 30 seconds into the call, with another 1 minute, 40 seconds left to go.
If, as soon as the dispatcher says they don’t need Zimmerman to follow Martin, Zimmerman was to stop, turn around, and go back to his vehicle, he should have been able to get to it and get back in before the end of the call if he didn’t exit his vehicle until you say he did.
Since we know Martin and Zimmerman didn’t meet up until after the end of the call, it seems pretty obvious that Zimmerman didn’t do what he should have done– turn around and head back to his vehicle right away after what the dispatcher said.
I’m not sure I believe that Zimmerman ever quit looking for Martin and headed back toward his vehicle that night, but if he did, he sure didn’t do it as soon as he should have.
“it seems pretty obvious that Zimmerman didn’t do what he should have done– turn around and head back to his vehicle right away after what the dispatcher said.”
Why should he have turned around? He acknowledged and slowed and stopped.
The dispatcher said “Alright. What is your name?”, Zimmerman, answered “George. He ran.”. The dispatcher then asked for Zimmerman’s last name and phone number, prefacing each with “Alright”
He then asked whether Zimmerman wished to meet with the officer when they got out “there”.
If the dispatcher had any concern for Zimmerman’s location or safety, he did not express such concern. When Zimmerman stopped, he said “alright”. When Zimmerman noted that Martin was out of sight, he said “alright”.
First of all, it sounds as if Zimmerman did come to a stop shortly after he said “OK.” Then there is a lot of discussion about where Zimmerman is going to meet the police.
It’s possible that after the call ended Zimmerman was walking around trying to find Martin. On the other hand, there is no reason to think that Zimmeman actually spotted Martin and took up pursuit.
The lead investigator was asked under oath if there is any evidence to contradict Z’s claim that he was heading back to the truck and said “no.”
The lead investigator said there was no evidence to contradict Z’s claim that Martin was the agressor.
It does not follow that Zimmerman is immune from claims that he was following, and/or pursuing Trayvon simply because he was trying to follow Trayvon but lost track of him for a period of time. One way or another, Zimmerman did find Trayvon again, which is why I am so mystified by the claim that he wasn’t “following” Trayvon just because he didn’t maintain eyes on his target through the entire encounter.
And just for reference, here is the transcript of the hearing Mark references, about three fourths the way down the page:
It’s fairly ambiguous, but my read was that he has no physical evidence to contradict it — only Zimmerman’s own conflicting statements.
There are a number of points that I would like to make. “DeeDee” signed an affidavit, so if her statement was knowingly false, she could face perjury charges. Yes, she knew Trayvon Martin, but then again those publicly offering defenses for George Zimmerman knew Zimmerman too. As far as we know right now, none of those people have signed affidavits affirming their story is truthful. Dee Dee has a lot to risk from lying or embellishing.
Another point worth mentioning is we do not know the exact position of Zimmerman’s truck. Is it possible that Zimmerman parked not at the cut through but either at or closer to the area between the two buildings that are oriented further south in the picture? Perhaps. If that is the case, Zimmerman might have outflanked Martin. We don’t know for certain this happened but Zimmerman may have wanted to head off Martin before he reached the back entrance. If this was indeed the case, it would make MORE sense to have parked closer to the back entrance than where we assume his car was.
Zimmerman was a serial dialer to the Sanford PD, logging 47 calls including the one that night. One of those calls was to report a suspicious 7-9 year old black male. Why on earth would you consider a young child suspicious. Zimmerman also called police about such mundane things like pot holes and garbage dumped on the side of the road. I don’t know about you, but if I see a pothole in my neighborhood, I contact my town’s DPW.
Zimmerman also supposedly had “investigated” things like people leaving their garage open. Sometimes people do things like this. I’ve been known to leave my garage open if I’m doing work in it or if I will be going out shortly. Some garages make a lot of noise opening and closing as well. My point is there are a list of reasons why people leave their garages open that shouldn’t create suspicion of a break in. Moreover, if someone is going to break into a house, why would they leave the garage open?
The supposed rash of break ins to the gated community was a grand total of eight in 15 months. That’s hardly an epidemic. It averages on every six weeks. Since we are talking about a gated community, it defies credulity to see the proverbial criminal walking w/ a television set. The more plausible scenario was that the break-ins were done by someone or a group of people with access to the gated community. That would suggest that the likely suspect might have been workmen or even a resident rather than suspicious youths from outside the gated community.
Which brings me to my next point, gated communities create both a false sense of security and foster an “us versus them” mentality. So for members of the community, the relatively small number of crimes MIGHT have seemed worse than it was. Keep all of this in mind when Zimmerman spots Martin walking that night.
I don’t have enough information to definitely say who initiated the confrontation and exactly where it took place. I’m going to put that aside for the moment to focus on details of the versions of events told by George ZImmerman, Robert Zimmerman, Joe Oliver, and George’s brother. There are some inconsistencies throughout, some glaring and some potentially insignificant.
I have a hard time buying Zimmerman’s claim about the street numbers. That strikes me as odd for someone who was the “captain” of the neighborhood watch.
The one version I thought was the least credible was that of Robert Zimmerman. Why? Because the way he described the shooting seemed to have been taken directly from the plot of the FX cop drama “Justified” which aired more than THREE weeks after the shooting, but just days before RZ’s television interview. Jonathan Capehart of the Washington Post wrote:
“Now when I heard what George Zimmerman allegedly told his father Trayvon said to him it made think about where have I heard something similar….And then it hit me that last week’s episode of FX Network’s show “Justified” called “Guy Walks Into a Bar” had almost the same type of language between bad guy Robert Quarles (Neal McDonough) and marshall Raylan Givens (Timothy Olyphant). Quarles says, “I’m going to kill you Raylan. Maybe not tonight. Maybe not tomorrow. But someday you’ll be walking down the street and I am gonna put a bullet right in the back of your skull and you’re gonna drop.
And the reason why George Zimmerman could not have told the Sanford Police the Quarles quote after his shooting of Treyvon is because this episode of ‘Justified’ had not aired yet,” Money Train wrote. “And ‘Justified’ is an action packed ‘shoot first’ vigilante law drama that I could easily see George Zimmerman watching regularly.”
What piqued my interest in what father Zimmerman said was that in the middle of that scream-filled life-and-death struggle where heads are being bashed into sidewalks, there was time for that bit of dramatic “monologuing”? Like the Zimmerman family’s public relations offensive on behalf of George, it doesn’t make sense.”
Other details coming from Zimmerman defenders seem equally specious. Officer Smith’s police report describes Zimmerman on his back w/ a wet jacket, grass stains, and blood. Did you see any of that in the police video? As for the purported photograph allegedly taken 3 minutes after the shooting, it just seems too convenient. Was it taken by Officer Smith or a member of the Sanford Fire Department? This was an active crime scene and police supposedly allowed someone to traipse around an active crime scene. I was a reporter once and I’ve been threatened w/ arrest merely for being at an active crime or accident scene. It is peculiar that the presence of this photographer is not noted in the police report. And then there’s the fact that at the cop shop, Zimmerman doesn’t even have a bandage, a band-aid, or a steri-strip on this “wound.” Then again there is also no blood, grass stains, concrete scrapes, tears, patches of wetness or anything on his clothing in the police video either.
Of course I could be wrong but it sure sounds like Zimmerman crafted a story to support self defense. We shall see.
The calls were not all to the Sanford Police Department, and they were over a 9 year period. It appears that Seminole County, has a single dispatch system. For example, one of the calls was about a motorcycle speeding and doing wheelies on I-4 in Altamonte Springs which is nowhere near Sanford.
The 7-9 YO was walking at night alone along a busy street. He was not reported as suspicious, but as requiring a welfare check. The 3 chuckholes and dumped trash were reported as traffic hazards. If a car swerves after hitting a chuckhole and has an accident, do you report the accident to the police or the department of public works. The accident has already happened, but if the DPW comes out and fixes the road, it will prevent another. Right?
One of the garage doors was reported the night after the Neighborhood Watch meeting, and a specific officer was mentioned to have suggested to notice things that are irregular. In a neighborhood like that with garages on the front, and nothing else other than the front door, it is an open invitation for someone to drive up and empty the garage.
The neighborhood has a wall on two sides, and is open on the other two. The burglars who were caught were caught on one of the sides where it adjoins an apartment complex, and another call reported the suspected persons were running across from the other neighborhood on an open side. The one set of burglars was arrested when the cop asked if the laptop they had belonged to them. When they said no, he asked if he could look at it, and the serial numbers matched one that had been stolen recently. The break-ins appeared to be pretty much get in, grab and get out, and probably on foot.
There are pedestrian gates at both entrances, and at least on the google street view the vehicle gates were wide open in the middle of the day. There are no guard shacks. It just prevents cars driving through at night – and there is no way to actually drive through.
The streets are numbered in opposite directions (for units that back onto the sidewalk area. The hundreds digit is actually a building number, so that nn10, nn20, nn30, nn40, nn50 would be the numbers in a single building. They don’t represent street blocks, and the street that makes a loop has 1100 and 3000 addresses that are adjacent to one another. The neighborhood only has 3 streets, and one could be familiar with the cut-through and where it goes, without knowing the address numbers.
The person who took the video of Zimmerman’s bleeding head, also says that he asked Zimmerman what he should have his wife tell the police – and he said that Zimmerman told him to tell her that he shot the other guy. So it appears that the neighbor beat the police to the scene. There are about a
half dozen witnesses listed in the two responding police officers reports.
I, too, would like to know the location of Zimmerman’s vehicle as well as which way it was pointed, were the doors locked, was the engine still running, were the headlights, or any other lights still on, was it set to not turn on any interior lights when the door was opened, what’s the make, model, and color (there’s a silver-ish small SUV shown in pictures from that night and the next day–pictures I can no longer find online, darn it–and although it appears parked “out in the street somewhere”, the pictures aren’t wide-frame enough to show location relative to any other known landmarks).
I’d also like to know the vehicle’s exact path, including times parked or paused, from the time Zimmeman left his house until the final time he exited it, and whether he exited the vehicle more than once.
And I really want to know exactly where, in which direction, at exactly when, and at what speed he walked or ran.
If he got out of the vehicle after the beginning of the phone call he had time to go straight back to it and reach it before the end of the call if he turned around and headed that way when told that they didn’t need him to be following Martin.
I’d like to know when Zimmerman was calling for help, when his nose and mouth were covered, when his hands or arms were pinned, when his head was being “slammed” into the sidewalk, and if Trayvon actually had an extra pair of arms and hands.
Was the cell phone camera back of the head shot taken from indoors, perhaps an upstairs window, was it taken by someone who was or had been on the phone with 911, at what point in between the gunshot and the arrival of Officer Timothy Smith was it taken?
One of the witnesses says the person they saw on top in the struggle was wearing a white T-shirt. Zimmerman was wearing a red and black or grey jacket, and he himself described Martin’s hoodie as dark grey. Further, T-shirt implies short sleeves.
Was there a 3rd person present during any of the struggle prior to the gunshot, or immediately thereafter?
A young boy says he saw the struggle but looked away when his dog got loose.
Was it really that easy to distract him from two guys having a fight?
Did the dog break away and not run toward the 2 strangers?
@jmtex, so in a long-winded way, you don’t consider making 47 phone calls — regardless of which law enforcement agency — to be perfectly normal? . After a while, the police start to tune you out as someone who “cries wolf.” In nine years of living at my present location, I’ve had to call the police three times, once when I was leafleted by the local skin-heads, and twice to report down powerlines and trees blocking the road, so I guess I will concede your point about the potholes. I still feel that the frequency of calls, including the vast majority BEFORE the creation of the gated communities neighborhood watch, portray GZ, at minimum, as a obsessive-compulsive busy body.
And then there is the language which he used in the calls as well. IF in fact, GZ was calling about children being out and it was a child protective services call, why did he label the children suspicious and why was the call logged as such by LEAs?as suspicious? Also how many phone calls to LEAs did GZ make about suspcious white males?diadidcotheirwell-being that don’t start with the phrase “suspicious.”
When the Sanford Police first released the call logs, they mislabeled them as being from 1/1/2011 or 1/1/2012, so it appeared as if Zimmerman had called 47 times in a year or even a few months. I even read a blog where someone claimed that he had called 47 times on New Years.
I had happened to come across the call logs first and was wondering how this claim of 47 times in a few months came about because the reports went back to 2004 – and only later found out about the original labeling error. But this frequent calling had already been implanted in the mind of gullible and susceptible public (I heard Cokie Roberts repeat it) who wanted to believe that a 17 YO who looked like he was 12 was hunted down by the skinhead for his candy, and then released by the good-old boy police chief of a southern town.
Like any effective propaganda campaign, it depends on exploiting the prejudices and gullibility of the readers and listeners.
It was not a child protective services call. It was a call to the police. It says “COMPL ADVD S43 (apparently code for child) IS WALKING ALONE & IS NOT SUPERVISED ON BUSY STREET // COMPL CONCERNED FOR WELL BEING”
It appears that most callers get labeled as COMPL or complainant – as part of dispatcher shorthand.
I see nothing in the report that indicates that the child was labeled “suspicious”. Do you? And if so, could you be more specific? Maybe you are able to hear and see things that aren’t really there.
It is possible that Zimmerman is simply more community-minded than you.
Let’s look at his first calls:
The first was about children not being in carseats. But the report is specific about the vehicle having a pickup bed. So it is possible that the children were in the bed of the truck. I suppose Zimmerman could have called about children in the seat of a truck, without car seats, but there must be more to the story.
The next call is about a neighbor’s garage door being open. When Zimmerman moved to Orlando he was living in his parents (future) retirement home. Zimmerman apparently checked the house and got no answer before calling police.
The next call is about a man walking around the street with a brown paper bag. It appears the police picked the (white male) up for public intoxication.
The next call is about a pothole “blocking” road.
The next next call is about neighbor’s garage door being open.
The next call was about a stray dog, with request for SCAC (Seminole County Animal Control?)
The next call, Zimmerman had been called by sister about (S-13P?) with out of state license plates, and that he had then not been able to contact his sister.
Which of these would you not have called in?
Susan, Thank you for this timeline. I like the way you have tied the two phone calls of the police and Dee Dee’s together. I would also like to say that I am impressed with how well writers (with a few exceptions) have refrained from outright name calling a general stupidity. With that said I am saddened when the intelligent responses are cheapened by terms such as Obvious, without a doubt, target (referring to Trayvon), pursued,… It appeared that the original intent was to fact find and not make assumptions (or so I assumed) I have several Comments and Questions that still spin through my mind and although I do see guilt and innocence on both sides I also remain open as to what happened as I simply was not there.
I would like to ask “has the location of the Ice tea and skittles has ever been made public?”
Glad you mentioned the ice tea and skittles because I have wondered about that myself. Where were they found and were they seized as evidence?
Maybe we will see some actual “evidence” soon because, so far, these charges make no sense to me. Here’s a view of the probable cause affidavit:
This one sentence says it all
The Probable Cause Affidavit in the George Zimmerman case doesn’t come close to these requirements.
Something is not making sense.
Since that phot of Zimmerman’s bloodied head has surfaced, I have been wondering why someone who would take such a picture would not ALSO take a picture of Trayvon’s body. Based on the comments of the photographer, he looked very closely at Trayvon’s body, as he stated that the traces of the bullet were clearly visible on the hoodie. That he noticed that is already amazing, as it was dark, rainy, and the hoodie was dark gray (from Zimmerman’s call to 911). But, if he looked that closely at the body. . .he probably took pictures of the body as well. So why haven’t those pictures surfaced? These pictures could show the body’s position in relation to the concrete sidewalk, and also the exact place of entry of the bullet. Was there any blood? How did Zimmerman (if he really was being held down by Trayvon, and shot him in that position) come out so quickly (based on at least one eye witness) from underneath the (literaly) dead 160lbs weight? And how did he get out of that spot without blood on his clothes, and with Trayvon’s body face down in the grass?
I believe not much has been made of such details, but I welcome any ideas of how Zimmerman could have so easily free himself from the weight of Trayvon’s body. . and without a trace of blood on his clothes. . . .if he really was trapped under it!
Regarding Susan’s statement: “One way or another, Zimmerman did find Trayvon again.”
***You could just as easily say — and with more evidentiary support — that “One way or another, Trayvon did find Zimmerman again.”
Regarding Susan’s statement: “And just for reference, here is the transcript of the hearing Mark references, about three fourths the way down the page:
O’MARA: Since. Today. Do you have any evidence that conflicts with his suggestion that he had turned around and went back to his car?
GILBREATH: Other than his statement, no.
It’s fairly ambiguous, but my read was that he has no physical evidence to contradict it — only Zimmerman’s own conflicting statements.”
***There are two possibilities for O’MARA’s quote: 1) transcripts can contain minor errors. In this case the word ‘to’ could either be mis-transcribed (this does happen) or mispronounced by Mara (which also happens) and should have been ‘towards’; or 2) O’MARA was trying to poke holes in the premise that somehow Zimmerman, after getting off the phone with the dispatcher and within about 1 minute of the fight somehow walked back to his truck and immediately turned around to walk all the way back to the attack site within about 60 seconds, a physically unlikely situation and inconsistent with Zimmerman’s contention he had turned and started back to his truck, at which point Trayvon approached him from behind and confronted him.
In fact, you cannot say Zimmerman both continued looking for Trayvon and he simultaneously returned to his truck and then returned to where the fight occurred. There was no time for both actions.
The police have repeatedly said Zimmerman’s multiple statements, given right after the fight (and at a time when they were trying to ‘break’ his story with multiple interviews without an attorney) were consistent enough to release him. Minor inconsistencies are to be expected in times of great stress (or could be misheard in police notes, including confusion with the words “towards” and “to”). Hard to see a conviction based on a single word allegedly attributed to Zimmerman when the physical layout and time make it highly unlikely Zimmerman had time to go completely back to his truck, only to immediately return to where he was previously and where he, for several minutes before never even saw Trayvon.
Zimmerman CHOSE not to have an attorney present. One would think that the son of magistrate might have the common sense not to say a word w/o a lawyer, but we’re talking about a guy who was STILL on the nine-year plan in criminal justice at the local community college?
I think you have done a great job.
I agree. Susan has done a great job.
I was reading the CNN transcript Susan linked to and came across this very interesting exchange about 40% down the page: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html
“O’MARA: Witnesses heard people arguing, sounded like a struggle. During this time, witnesses heard numerous calls for help. Some of this was recorded. Trayvon’s mom reviewed the 911 calls and identified the cry for help and Trayvon Martin’s voice. Did you do any forensic analysis on that voice tape?
GILBREATH: Did I?
O’MARA: Did you or are you aware of anything?
GILBREATH: The “Orlando Sentinel” had someone do it and the FBI has had someone do it.
O’MARA: Is that part of your investigation?
O’MARA: Has that given any insight as to the voice?
O’MARA: Did Trayvon Martin’s mom identify that voice as soon as she heard it or were there concerns as to the identity of that voice?
GILBREATH: I did not speak with her.”
So, based on the above, the Sanford police did not conduct their own voice analysis of the 911 yells for help. Instead, they looked at TWO SEPARATE FORENSIC VOICE ANALYSES of the yells conducted by: 1) the Orlando Sentinel (by someone named Owen) and 2) the FBI.
We all by now know that Owen’s name has been plastered around the world as having proved Trayvon was doing the yelling because the voice, so he says, wasn’t Zimmerman’s.
However, despite Owen’s well known opinions, the investigators still have no insight into whose voice is doing the yelling!
This can only mean that the investigators decided to rely on the FBI conclusion (and not Owen’s) that they had no insight after their own analysis — no doubt because the yells are not good exemplars to use for matching purposes.
There are also reports that Trayvon’s father told investigator’s that the voice on the tapes is not Trayvon’s
Based on the statement made by Zimmerman to the police, statements that were discussed in last Friday’s bond hearing, Trayvon had one hand on Zimmerman’s mouth, and the other on Zimmerman’s nose. . .how would you explain that Zimmerman could be the one calling for help if he was being “smothered” by Trayvon? How could those cries for help be heard inside the neighborhing houses, and even through the phone conversation the witnesses were having with 911?
Direct quote from the bond hearing:
“UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he also not state that at some point, he the defendant — did he not state or claim that the victim in this case, Mr. Martin, put both hands one over his mouth and one over his nose so that he couldn’t breathe?
GILBREATH: Yes. “
Zimmeman’s father said that it was George’s voice.
I found it incredible that the Orlando Sentinel’s “experts” were even mentioned. How incompetent and embarrassing!!!
Do some searches and you will find lots of “experts” who have analyzed the voice on tape. I think I posted one of them here before.
If, and I emphasize IF this goes to trial, I suspect there will be competing experts about that voice. You have all seen reports of eyewitnesses who say it was George calling for help and the skinny here in Tampa is that there are other eyewitnesses who say the same.. no I cannot confirm that and, yes, I know we have to be careful about the leaks that are bound to take place.
Quite frankly, the probable cause affidavit still has me puzzled and I would like to know if they really did have to “shop around” to get it signed.
Anyone know for certain, who approved it?
Nice blog here, Susan. I know you are predisposed toward the victim, but thanks for letting others spout off.
Where are the skittles and iced tea? LOL
What evidence do you have that Zimmerman “found” Martin?
Maybe he just bumped into him.
I too have wondered where the skittles and iced tea are?
If they were lying on the ground or in Trayvon’s hoddie pocket that would not mean much one way of the other. However, if they cannot be found anywhere in the area (was there a search?) there arises a most unpleasant possibility: That Trayvon made it to his destination apt, dumped what he had, and then returned to find and confront Zimmerman. The reality is that Trayvon towers over Zimmerman (6’2″ vs 5’9″) and appears to be in recent photos a formidable and fit opponent, not a wimpy kid.
Without the skittles location, the ugly and unsaid possibility is that Trayvon had more than just skittles and iced tea so he first went home to dipose of contraband. After all, Trayvon was caught at school with burglary tools, unexplained women’s’ jewlery and had a container with drug residue. So Trayvon could have feared Zimmerman was undercover or had called police and didn’t want to be caught with contraband.
Unfortunalty, these issues arise because no one seems to be able to account for the famous skittles and iced tea — which should have been right near the body or in a pocket.
Another issue is the assumption Trayvon was just gone for a basketball halftime break. If that was the case then he would have run or walked directly home to watch the game (and to give his brother the skittles etc.). There are too many loose that still must be answered … the first being the final location of the skittles.
Exactly, the location of the Skittles and ice tea is crucial to the case. It’s even more important than the forensics report.
I must update a previous post I made regarding the hearing transcript after reading more. Susan, in citing from the bond hearing transcript ( http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html ), said:
“And just for reference, here is the transcript of the hearing Mark references, about three fourths the way down the page:
O’MARA: Since. Today. Do you have any evidence that conflicts with his suggestion that he had turned around and went back to his car?
GILBREATH: Other than his statement, no.”
I had commented that the words “he had turned around and went back TO his car” should have been “he had turned around and went back TOWARDS his car.” This is an important distinction since if Zimmerman had stated he had actually reached his car/truck his statement could be impeached.
Well, it turns out I was correct. The word “TOWARDS” was the correct word, not “TO”, and the two words were inadvertently used interchangeably. This very issue was corrected in the transcript in this exchange in which that very distinction was noted by both O’MARA and GILBREATH (the investigator) and that the correct word was “TOWARDS”:
“O’MARA: And then he said he went back around and went towards his car, did he not? In his statement.
GILBREATH: In his statement after he was told not to talk by the dispatcher.
O’MARA: Got you.
GILBREATH: He says that he continued on to find a street sign and then went back to his car.
O’MARA: So he said before he knew anyone else saw or did not see what had happened, he gave a statement saying he went back to his car, correct?
GILBREATH: No. Towards his car.
O’MARA: Sorry. You’re right. He went towards his car. Seemingly away from Mr. Martin, though, correct?”
I was embarrassed for the state. Do you really think they investigated this case thoroughly? How could they not have those medical records? That is absurd. It looks to me like they are spending my tax dollars again… stupidly. just like they did in overcharging Casey Anthony.
One last comment on the Zimmerman bond hearing transcript:
The judge sustained O’Mara’s (Zimmerman’s lawyer) objections to using input from the purported “DeeDee” (Trayvon’s girlfriend) affidavit that the probable cause affidavit relies on. The reason was that the investigator, Gilbreath, admitted he had never read the DeeDee affidavit. So conclusions relying on it, in the probable cause affidavit signed by Gilbreath, are inadmissible hearsay.
It is most unlikely that this was an ‘accident’ Gilbreach did not read the DeeDee affidavit. The media has been reporting on what she said second hand but she, herself, has never directly spoken out. And now we know that the lead investigator would not read what she was actually willing to swear to under oath (if there is such an affidavit — a still uncertain issue).
So, don’t be too surprised to eventually learn the DeeDee affidavit is of even weaker value to the prosecution than what we are currently being led to believe it is, and that it may not say what we have been led to believe it says … or may even hurt the prosecution’s case.
Zimmerman’s claim of “smothering” by Trayvon during the fight, was likely an attempt by Trayvon to shut Zimmerman up when Zimmerman started yelling for help … an attempt that was not completely successful.
Moreover, the weight of 160-170 lbs on Zimmerman’s chest should have had some effect on his cries for help.
The grass stains on Zimmerman’s back and cuts and contusions on his head indicate Zimmerman could have been part on and part off the sidewalk. Or there could have been some grass cuttings on the sidewalk. Suffering two cuts and contusions indicates more than damage from grass alone.
When Zimmerman fired the single shot it is likely he was unsure where the bullet struck its damage because events were happening so quickly, so he briefly continued to fight back.
Zimmerman’s apparent reevaluation of Trayvon’s age, from late teens to a little younger than Zimmerman, came when the confrontation started. Earlier, from his truck and in the dark, Zimmerman could easily believe Trayvon was in his late teens (which he related to the dispatcher). However, when attacked started close up from a 6’2″ powerful attacker who towers over him by about 5-6 inches, that earlier estimate could immediately have been revised upwards by Zimmerman.
From early on we have heard about the skittles and the ice tea. I’m wondering how this became a known fact.
If the police found them that night, how did they know it had anything to do with the incident? Did they get the 711 video within a day or two? Does the prosecutor know where they were? Maybe they only know TM had them based on the video.
I don’t think the location will be all that significant. On the other hand, if they were dropped far away or “behind” the truck that could indicate that TM dropped them in anticipation of a fight.
His father said that when he and his girlfriend returned from dinner around 10:30, that he called Trayvon’s phone which went to voice mail. He tried calling a cousin, as there had been some discussion about going to a movie. The next morning he tried again, and then called the police with a missing person.
They said they needed to talk to them, and a police car and two unmarked cars, including a chaplain showed up at their home, with some fairly gruesome pictures of Trayvon (eyes rolled back, tongue out) to identify.
Later that day, Tracy Martin and his girlfriend Brandy Green were on the local TV coverage of the shooting.
“He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store,” she said. “He doesn’t know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I’m living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him.”
If you watch the video, the above conflates quotes from Tracy Martin and Brandy Green. Tracy Martin says the first sentence, and Brandy Green the last part beginning with “He doesn’t …” Apparently, whoever wrote the copy was confused by Tracy’s name sometimes being a female name (eg Tracy Austin) and the unclear relationship of Green, who was early on identified as fiance’, stepmother, future stepmother, but on the video was “Knew teen who was shot”.
When she says “I’m living down here”, she waves her hand to indicate that Martin was close to her home. I interpret “sitting on the porch”, to mean that Trayvon had been sitting on her patio when they had left for dinner, not that Trayvon was shot on his porch. They were standing by where the shooting took place, when they were saying this.
Her son (13 or 14) was apparently at home during the shooting. Sometimes the story is that the tea and candy were a treat from soon to be older brother.
So my guess is that the “ice tea and skittles” came from the police. I’ve also read that he had a specific amount of cash, but I can’t remember the amount ($22?). It is conceivable that he stuck the receipt in a pocket, or maybe Green’s son had told them that Trayvon had gone to the store.
Unless there were a receipt, I’m dubious that the 7-11 would have been tracked down that quick.
“Where are the Skittles LOL?” seems a lot of good questions have arose from this. As pointed out it may indicate that Trayvon made it home and returned. It could show where he waited for or hid from Zimmerman until the confrontation. It could be evidence in a continuing investigation.
To your request Sadenie, I speak of only first hand experience with Gun Shot Wounds and in no way in the example that I use would suggest that Trayvon is a deer or in need of being shot.
*** The following may be considered GRAPHIC and OFFENSIVE*** it is not meant to offend.
I have, on several occasions, seen entrance wounds created by high power rifles that have left little to no blood visible on deer. I have also seen the results of handguns, on humans, at close quarters that create entrance wounds with only a small amount of blood outside the body. The cauterizing effect of the bullet, coupled with the tissue closing off the wound and the clothes absorbing the blood are all factors. Depending on where he was hit (the chest is very vague) the blood could be no longer under pressure and less apt to be present it is possible that no blood ( or not enough to soak through the clothes) came from the entrance wound of Trayvon. Until his body lay and prone and after time pooled, then, because of gravity it could seep out. This would be unlikely since the second officer states he rolled him over and started CPR.
The skittles and ice tea cipher, right now, is more of a loose end. But it is an important loose end that should at least be verified through viewing an actual police report (does anyone have any links?).
It came up when media reports claimed they were with Trayvon at the morgue (or otherwise in an evidence locker etc., when he was a John Doe?). Unfortunately, no one should trust such statements in the media but instead, use them as a starting point for official confirmation.
Right now there is no reason to believe he did not have those items in his pocket(s) … but an important loose end is a loose end.
A side issue is that if the police originally linked those items with the body, then they were likely in a pocket of the hoodie which would, at least implicitly, solve the problem of explaining where the stittles were when Trayvon was attacking Zimmerman as he claims.
Important because his hands would have had to be free in order to fight in the manner George described.
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This is all I could find about the skittles and Iced Tea:
Quote from Martin family attorney Crump:
“What do the police find in his pocket? Skittles,” Crump said. “A can of Arizona ice tea in his jacket pocket and Skittles in his front pocket for his brother Chad.”
Not exactly an official source, but it is very specific about which pocket each was found in.
That is significant if it’s true. It means his hands were free for the fight. It could make a difference if those
items were found on the ground.
Thanks for the reply.
In regards to the girlfriend DeeDee’s affidavit, Detective Gilbreath did not interview her. However, the other investigator, O’steen, who also signed the Probable Cause Affidavit, apparently did. This from the Bond Hearing:
O’MARA: During this time, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described what was happening. How did you get that information?
GILBREATH: From Detective Osteen.
O’MARA: How did he get it?
GILBREATH: He interviewed the witness.
To Anonymous 8:42:
The operative word in your comment is “apparently.” The problem is that OSteen was not put on the stand by the state and Gilbreath’s testimony was hearsay as to what DeeDee said, how and where she said it and the full extent of what she said (including if she gave any information damaging to the state — WHICH ALSO MUST BE DISCLOSED IN THE PROBABLE CAUSE AFFIDAVIT).
Here are some hearing transcript parts concerning DeeDee:
O’MARA: During this time, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described what was happening. How did you get that information?
GILBREATH: From Detective Osteen.
O’MARA: How did he get it?
GILBREATH: He interviewed the witness.
DE LA RIONDA: Isn’t it true also that you verified through Detective Osteen, Investigator Osteen that Mr. Martin was on the phone with a lady who was out of town?
DE LA RIONDA: Ok and in fact that young lady provided a sworn statement but also you verified through phone records that that conversation actually took place? GILBREATH: Yes.
DE LA RIONDA: Ok and what is described in that next paragraph exactly that Mr. Martin was describing to the lady that he was scared because he was being followed throughout the complex by an unknown male and did not know why this man, Mr. Zimmerman was following him?
GILBREATH: To my understanding, yes.
DE LA RIONDA: Obviously Mr. Martin didn’t refer to the male as Mr. Zimmerman.
GILBREATH: Yes and also this came from Osteen informing me of this. We had split work and had done different things.
A good lawyer could drive a truck through the gaps in that testimony. For example, notice Gilbreath’s ords “To my understanding, yes”. This wording was done because he is giving hearsay testimony.
Did the information actually come from the affidavit or the from an interview? Were there contradictions between the two? How was the information relayed, including through what type of statements? Etc.,
The significant fact, as I said, is that Gilbreath did not take the time to read the DeeDee affidavit (which raises the strong suspicion it may conflict with the probable clause affidavit even if consistent with an interview Osteen may or may not have conducted). A second issue is the State not putting Osteen on the stand to support the affidavit parts he had first hand knowledge of.
As I said before, I am beginning to believe there are serious problems with the “DeeDee as prosecution witness” matter, including her extreme reluctance to come forward and long delay in cooperating with investigators, the lack of a witness at the hearing who actually read her affidavit, the long unexplained time gap in her purported statement from the time Trayvon first ran until the confrontation and other matters. What did Trayvon tell her about why he didn’t go straight home? If she had something positive to say about that you can be sure it would have been emblazoned across the affidavit and in the press. I now believe she has information very damaging to the “Trayvon as innocent” theories the prosecutor is trying to foist on us. Time will tell, but readers interested in this matter should google “ODD STUFF and “DeeDee” Appears” at the c*********** t*** h****.com.
This is one of the most incredible, devastating and accurate attacks on a prosecutor I have ever seen:
“Legal legend Alan Dershowitz blasted the special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case, accusing her of hiding evidence favorable to defendant George Zimmerman and committing perjury.
“If I were this prosecutor, I’d be hiring a lawyer at this point,” Dershowitz said of Angela Cory, the Florida state attorney and special prosecutor who Gov. Rick Scott appointed to handle the case.”
Your adjectives seem a little overblown.
As does Dershowitz’s rant. I have to think this is partially a publicity stunt, because I don’t think he’d actually have written something like that in a genuine effort to assess the case. What Dershowitz is arguing doesn’t seem to add up:
I don’t think this is an accurate description of Florida criminal procedure, or the criminal procedure of any jurisdiction I’ve looked at. There is no requirement that all evidence be released in the pretrial probable cause affidavit, and it is almost always to the state’s advantage to not tip their hand too soon. The law says they only need to give probable cause, so they only give away enough to show probable cause, and stop there.
Rule 3.132(a) of the Florida Rules of Criminal Procedure only states that “[u]pon a showing by the state of probable cause that the defendant committed the offense and exigent circumstances, the defendant shall be detained in custody pending the filing of the motion.” And Rule 3.133(a)(3) provides that “In determining probable cause to detain the defendant, the judge shall apply the standard for issuance of an arrest warrant, and the finding may be based on sworn complaint, affidavit, deposition under oath, or, if necessary, on testimony under oath properly recorded.” So it’s not really a particularly high standard — just enough proof to get an arrest warrant, nothing close to what is needed to convict.
The state doesn’t need to give exculpatory evidence, doesn’t need to prove it can win a conviction, doesn’t need to reveal any aces it may be holding. There’s no point in reading too much in a pretrial affidavit, the state is going to try and release only the evidence that is already publicly available, if they can do so and still get probable cause. Which they did here.
This reply is really intended for Susan but WordPress is so bad it almost makes HuffPo seem useable.
I think Dershowitz is past the point of getting better with age.
And I say this as someone who’s only a little more than a decade younger.
Susan: Try this, please:
I’ve seen that blog, and I’m not particularly convinced by its reasoning. (It’s also a criminal law firm’s blog, so it’s written in part to try and impress/attract clients — of course it’s not going to write a post saying “gee, the state did it right here!”)
But even that post starts off admitting that “[t]he standard for Probable Cause is extremely low.” It’s kind of silly that the author then suddenly veers off to find that the affidavit “doesn’t even come close” to meeting that standard — when, as a matter of fact, the affidavit has already successfully done it’s job. I’m not sure how it can be labeled “a flop” when the judge ruled that it met the standard, and the case has moved on. The affidavit worked, it’s over, and now the affidavit has no further relevance to the case.
But to address its criticisms of it:
Pretty sure it’s on the basis of DeeDee’s testimony. You don’t have to agree with that basis, but a basis still exists.
The blog falsely alleges that the only possible evidence of ill will comes from the phrase “fucking punks.” But that’s not true — probable cause of ill will is shown in that comment, along with the “these assholes always get away,” the decision to pursue his target on foot, and perhaps most importantly, Zimmerman’s unsupported and false belief that Trayvon was a criminal.
“Ill will” is not some specific, highly developed and specific feeling of hatred towards a specific individual. It means that the accused was acting with aggression or animus, not lackadaisical recklessness. Florida courts have found that ill will exists where the evidence shows that a killing “took place after a somewhat heated argument and struggle for the gun,” as “[t]his testimony could lead a rational juror to find that the shooting was the result of the defendant’s ill will and malice toward the victim.” Redman v. Dugger, 866 F.2d 387, 389 (11th Cir. 1989).
There is no misstatement. The fact that “stop following him” was not literally said does not mean that wasn’t the message conveyed; a stern but polite “okay, I don’t need you to do that,” said when someone is already doing whatever “that” is, conveys “don’t do that,” albeit in a polite manner. You can disagree with this conclusion — but disagreement over interpretation doesn’t make the interpretation a lie.
As for the omissions, the case the crim law blog cites itself plainly notes such omissions are routine and unobjectionable: “misstatements are fundamentally a different problem than omissions. Some omissions may be ‘intentional’ but also reasonable in the sense that they exclude material police in good faith believed to be marginal, extraneous, or cumulative. Such an exclusion is a valid and necessary part of the warrant process. Moreover, some omitted information is simply overlooked in the exigencies of the moment without intent to deceive or recklessness with respect to the truth. The State and the defense reasonably may disagree as to the import and effect of the large amount of information that necessarily will be omitted in the warrant process, since police routinely collect far more information than goes into the affidavit.”
There were six different 911 callers. Some can be interpreted to support Zimmerman, some to inculpate him, others to show the callers were completely confused. The affidavit of probable cause summarizes them all into an accurate but unspecific summary: “witnesses heard arguing and then a struggle.” The fact the specific testimony of each one was not included does not make the omission “material” in any respect, as the pro-Zimmerman witnesses are balanced out by the ones that support a finding of his guilt.
Also, the state doesn’t have to produce evidence of Zimmerman’s affirmative defense in its own probable cause affidavit. It’d be the same if Zimmerman was insane — the state doesn’t have to say that, it’s his job to prove it.
So in short, there is absolutely no reason the state couldn’t bring the Murder2 charge, or somehow acted wrongfully in doing so. As the case below illustrates, even with the Murder2 charge, if Zimmerman can successfully show that his role in the fight was a reluctant one, the charge will likely be reduced to manslaughter at trial:
Pierce v. State, 376 So. 2d 417, 417-18 (Fla. Dist. Ct. App. 1979)