On last week’s episode of The 45th podcast, I went through a timeline of events leading up to Comey’s testimony before the Senate Intelligence Committee on June 8th, with a focus on the Trump Team’s post-election contacts with Russia, and actions by Trump that were either intended to, or could have the effect of, impeding the investigation into those contacts. There have been a few requests for some kind of graphic outlining what was discussed in the episode, so here it is.
Heads up, you’re probably going to have to open the diagram in a new tab to be able to read all of it [PDF]. Also, since there’s only so much that can fit in a graph, I’ve made a separate table, below, with record citations and larger article excerpts.
|Nov. 8, 2016:||Trump is elected. The transition team begins its work.|
|Week of Nov. 21, 2016:||Flynn Informs Trump’s National Security Transition Team of His Plans to Talk to Kislyak: Flynn, who spent most his time in Trump Tower during the transition, goes to DC to meet with the rest of Trump’s national security “landing team.” Flynn informs the team that he has scheduled “a conversation” with Kislyak. (WP, 5/5/17).
Billingslea Warns Flynn That His Communications With Kislyak Will Be Intercepted by the U.S. Government: “Flynn was told during a late November meeting that Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak’s conversations were almost certainly being monitored by U.S. intelligence agencies.” (WP, 5/5/17). It is possible that this accounts involves some level of revisionist history, as this is information that Flynn — the former DIA director — unquestionably already knew.
|Nov. 28-30, 2016:||The Trump Transition Team Requests Access to the CIA’s Classified Profile of Kislyak: “Shortly thereafter, during the week of Nov. 28, Billingslea and other transition officials met with lower-level Obama administration officials in the Situation Room at the White House. At the end of the meeting, which covered a range of subjects, Billingslea asked for the CIA profile. ‘Can we get material on Kislyak?’ one recalled Billingslea asking.” (WP, 5/5/17).|
|Dec. 1 or 2, 2016:||Flynn and Kushner Meet With Kislyak in Trump Tower to Discuss the Creation of a Secret “Back Channel” Method of Communication Between the Trump team and the Russian Government That Would Not Be Detected by the United States: News of this meeting was initially disclosed in late March 2017, and in response, the White House issues a statement that the purpose of the meeting was “to explore whether a channel could be set up between the Russian government and the incoming administration to improve relations between the United States and Russia” and that the parties “discussed how the United States and Russia could cooperate on issues in the Middle East.” (NYT, 3/27/17). Two months after news of the Kushner/Kislyak/Flynn meeting first broke, it was reported that these communications went far beyond merely a discussion of ways to “improve relations” between the two countries. Kushner and Kislyak “discussed the possibility of setting up a secret and secure communications channel between Trump’s transition team and the Kremlin, using Russian diplomatic facilities in an apparent move to shield their pre-inauguration discussions from monitoring, according to U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports.” (WP, 5/26/17).
Flynn, Kushner, and Kislyak Discussed Military Cooperation Between the U.S. and Russia: “The idea behind the secret communications channel, the three people said, was for Russian military officials to brief Mr. Flynn about the Syrian war and to discuss ways to cooperate there.” (NYT, 5/26/17).
|Unknown dates in December:||The Obama Administration Becomes Alarmed by the Transition Team’s Contacts with Russia and Mishandling of Classified Information: “Obama advisers delayed telling Trump’s team about plans to punish Russia for its election meddling. Obama officials worried the incoming administration might tip off Moscow, according to one Obama adviser.” (AP, 5/5/17).
“After learning that highly sensitive documents from a secure room at the transition’s Washington headquarters were being copied and removed from the facility, Obama’s national security team decided to only allow the transition officials to view some information at the White House, including documents on the government’s contingency plans for crises.” (AP, 5/5/17).
|Unknown date between Dec. 3 and Dec. 11, 2016:||Kislyak Meets With Kushner’s Assistant, Avi Berkowitz, and Relays a Request For Kushner to Meet with Sergey Gorkov, the Head of a Russian Bank Under U.S. Sanctions: “… Mr. Kislyak requested a second meeting, which Mr. Kushner asked a deputy to attend in his stead, officials said. At Mr. Kislyak’s request, Mr. Kushner later met with Sergey N. Gorkov, the chief of Vnesheconombank, which the United States placed on its sanctions list after President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia annexed Crimea and began meddling in Ukraine.” (NYT, 3/27/17). Kushner’s decision to send a young but trusted subordinate to the meeting with the Russian ambassador indicates that both parties knew the request for a “meeting” was in fact a way for Kislyak to securely send a message to Kushner, in a way unlikely to be detected by the U.S. government or the media.|
|Dec. 12 or 13, 2016:||Kushner Meets With Gorkov: “Mr. Kushner later met with Sergey N. Gorkov, the chief of Vnesheconombank, which the United States placed on its sanctions list after President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia annexed Crimea and began meddling in Ukraine.” (NYT, 3/27/17).
Gorkov and the White House Give Opposing Explanations for the Purpose of the Meeting with Kushner: “The bank maintained this week that the session was held as part of a new business strategy and was conducted with Kushner in his role as the head of his family’s real estate business. The White House says the meeting was unrelated to business and was one of many diplomatic encounters the soon-to-be presidential adviser was holding ahead of Donald Trump’s inauguration.” (WP, 6/1/17).
|Dec. 14, 2016:||After Meeting With Kushner, Gorkov Immediately Flies to Japan to Meet with Putin: “After leaving Newark on Dec. 14, the jet headed to Japan, where Putin was visiting on Dec. 15 and 16. The news media had reported that Gorkov would join the Russian president there.” (WP, 6/1/17).|
|Dec. 19, 2016:||“Flynn reportedly called Kislyak on December 19, 2016 to express condolences for the assassination of the Russian ambassador to Turkey. Flynn and Kislyak then exchanged holiday greetings by text on December 25, 2016, according to an account by Sean Spicer.” (WP, 2/14/17).|
|Dec. 29, 2016:||The Obama Administration Expels Diplomats In Response to Russian Interference in 2016 Election: 35 Russian diplomats are expelled, two compounds are closed, and new economic sanctions are announced.
Flynn and Kislyak Have At Least Five Phone Calls Following the Imposition of the New Sanctions: “National security adviser Michael Flynn privately discussed U.S. sanctions against Russia with that country’s ambassador to the United States during the month before President Trump took office, contrary to public assertions by Trump officials, current and former U.S. officials said. Flynn’s communications with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak were interpreted by some senior U.S. officials as an inappropriate and potentially illegal signal to the Kremlin that it could expect a reprieve from sanctions that were being imposed by the Obama administration in late December to punish Russia for its alleged interference in the 2016 election.” (WP, 2/9/17).
Flynn Reassures Russia That Things Will Be Different Once Trump Is In Office:“Throughout the discussions, the message Mr. Flynn conveyed to the ambassador, Sergey I. Kislyak — that the Obama administration was Moscow’s adversary and that relations with Russia would change under Mr. Trump — was unambiguous and highly inappropriate, the officials said. … [C]urrent and former American officials said that conversation — which took place the day before the Obama administration imposed sanctions on Russia over accusations that it used cyberattacks to help sway the election in Mr. Trump’s favor — ranged far beyond the logistics of a post-inauguration phone call. And they said it was only one in a series of contacts between the two men that began before the election and also included talk of cooperating in the fight against the Islamic State, along with other issues.” (NYT, 2/8/17).
|Dec. 30, 2016:||Putin Announces That Russia Will Not Retaliate Against the U.S.: “Putin regretted that Obama was finishing his term by imposing new sanctions against Moscow, saying that Moscow considered new unfriendly steps of the outgoing U.S. administration a ‘provocation aimed at further undermining the Russia-U.S. relations.’ Russia, which reserves the right to retaliate, will not stoop to the level of irresponsible ‘kitchen’ diplomacy and will determine further steps in mending ties with the U.S. based on President-elect Donald Trump’s future policy, Putin added.” (Xinhua, 12/30/16).
Trump Tweets That Putin is Smart and Russia is Playing the U.S. Media:
2:41pm: “Great move on delay (by V. Putin) – I always knew he was very smart!”
5:18pm: “Russians are playing @CNN and @NBCNews for such fools – funny to watch, they don’t have a clue! @FoxNews totally gets it!”
|Jan. 6, 2017:||Comey Meets with Trump To Report on Russian Election Interference Investigation (and to Break the News About the Pee Pee Tape): “In that context, prior to the January 6 meeting, I discussed with the FBI’s leadership team whether I should be prepared to assure President-Elect Trump that we were not investigating him personally. That was true; we did not have an open counter-intelligence case on him. We agreed I should do so if circumstances warranted. During our one-on-one meeting at Trump Tower, based on President-Elect Trump’s reaction to the briefing and without him directly asking the question, I offered that assurance. I felt compelled to document my first conversation with the President-Elect in a memo.” (Comey, 6/8/17).|
|Jan. 7, 2016:||Trump Tweets About Russia: “Having a good relationship with Russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. Only ‘stupid’ people, or fools, would think that it is bad! We [ ] have enough problems around the world without yet another one. When I am President, Russia will respect us far more than they do now and [ ] both countries will, perhaps, work together to solve some of the many great and pressing problems and issues of the WORLD!”|
|Jan. 11, 2017:||Erik Prince, Betsy DeVos’ Brother, Meets With a Russian Representative in the Seychelles Islands To Discuss Development of a Back Channel Communication Method: “The United Arab Emirates arranged a secret meeting in January between Blackwater founder Erik Prince and a Russian close to President Vladimir Putin as part of an apparent effort to establish a back-channel line of communication between Moscow and President-elect Donald Trump[.] The meeting took place around Jan. 11 [ ] in the Seychelles islands in the Indian Ocean. . . . [T]he UAE agreed to broker the meeting in part to explore whether Russia could be persuaded to curtail its relationship with Iran, including in Syria, a Trump administration objective that would be likely to require major concessions to Moscow on U.S. sanctions.” (WP, 4/3/17) (emphasis added).|
|Jan. 12, 2017:||Washington Post Breaks Story of Flynn’s Phone Calls with Kislyak on Day Ambassadors Were Expelled: “According to a senior U.S. government official, Flynn phoned Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak several times on Dec. 29, the day the Obama administration announced the expulsion of 35 Russian officials as well as other measures in retaliation for the hacking. What did Flynn say, and did it undercut the U.S. sanctions?” (WSJ, 1/12/17).|
|Jan. 13, 2017:||Trump Indicates That He Will Lift Russian Sanctions if Russia Assists the U.S. in Syria: Trump tells the Wall Street Journal that Russia can help us fight terrorists (such as, say, in Syria), and “If you get along and if Russia is really helping us, why would anybody have sanctions if somebody’s doing some really great things?” (WSJ, 1/13/17).
Trump Team States Flynn and Kislyak Had One Call on December 28th, Then Clarify That Call Was Actually on December 29th: “Trump adviser Michael Flynn and Ambassador Sergey Kislyak spoke Dec. 29 to discuss scheduling a conversation between Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin after the president-elect is sworn in, transition spokesman Sean Spicer told reporters Friday. Spicer had initially said the two spoke Dec. 28, the day before the sanctions. Late Friday, Spicer said he was mistaken about the date. He said the call followed an exchange of texts originated by Flynn to wish the ambassador merry Christmas. ‘They exchanged logistical information on how to initiate and schedule that call,’ Spicer said. ‘That was it, plain and simple.'” (Bloomberg, 1/13/17).
|Jan. 14, 2017:||The White House Acknowledges Flynn’s Calls with Kislyak, But Deny Any Discussion of Sanctions: “During the call, the Russian ambassador invited U.S. officials to a conference on Syria later this month that is being held in Kazakhstan, according to the transition official, who was not authorized to publicly discuss the matter and insisted on anonymity.” (AP, 1/14/17).|
|Jan. 15, 2017:||Vice President Pence States That He Has Talked to Flynn About the Kislyak Calls, and Sanctions Were Not Discussed:
|Mid-January, 2017:||The White House’s Story on the Nature of Flynn’s Calls with Kislyak Continually Evolves: “AP has also pointed to inconsistencies in the Trump team’s response about the phone calls. While White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer initially claimed there was only one phone call on December 28th, a transition official confirmed that Flynn had spoken with Kislyak on December 29th, ostensibly about having a U.S. presence for the Syrian peace talks in Kazakhstan. According to NBC, the call on December 29th had not been cleared by the White House, and Spicer claimed this call was to set up a future phone call between Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin.” (Lawfare, 1/25/17).|
|Jan. 19, 2017:||Yates and Comey Debate Whether Informing Trump About Flynn Will Interfere With Investigation: “The internal debate over how to handle the intelligence on Flynn and Kislyak came to a head on Jan. 19, Obama’s last full day in office. Yates, Clapper and Brennan argued for briefing the incoming administration so the new president could decide how to deal with the matter. The officials discussed options, including telling Pence, the incoming White House counsel, the incoming chief of staff or Trump himself. FBI Director James B. Comey initially opposed notification, citing concerns that it could complicate the agency’s investigation.” (WP, 2/13/17).|
|Jan. 23, 2017:||Spicer Inaccurately States at Press Conference That Kislyak and Flynn Did Not Discuss Sanctions:
|Jan. 26, 2017:||Acting Attorney General Sally Yates Meets with the White House to Warn Them That Flynn is Lying About Russia, and At Risk of Being Blackmailed: “Former acting attorney general Sally Yates testified Monday that she expected White House officials to ‘take action’ on her January warning that then-national security adviser Michael Flynn could be blackmailed by Russia, offering her first public statements about the national security concerns that rocked the early days of the Trump administration. . . . ‘We began our meeting telling [White House attorney Don McGahn] that there had been press accounts of statements from the vice president and others that related to conduct that General Flynn had been involved in that we knew not to be the truth,’ Yates said. ‘The vice president was unknowingly making false statements to the American public, and General Flynn was compromised by the Russians.'” (WP, 5/8/17).
McGahn Immediately Informs President Trump About Yates’ Warning on Flynn: “White House officials have said McGahn immediately took the issues raised by Yates to the president but determined there was no pressing criminal issue. It is not clear what other actions, if any, White House officials took after the warning from Yates.” (WP, 5/8/17).
|Jan. 27, 2017:||McGahn Calls Yates and Asks Her to Come Back in For Another Meeting: At the meeting, McGahn asks four questions:
In response to the last question, Yates told McGahn that he could see the evidence, but as it was late on Friday afternoon, she said she would have the FBI compile the evidence over the weekend, and asked McGahn to call on Monday and make plans to come in then.
Trump Calls FBI Director Comey and Invites Him to Dinner: “He had called me at lunchtime that day and invited me to dinner that night, saying he was going to invite my whole family, but decided to have just me this time, with the whole family coming the next time. . . . It turned out to be just the two of us, seated at a small oval table in the center of the Green Room. Two Navy stewards waited on us, only entering the room to serve food and drinks.” (Comey, 6/8/17).
Trump Asks Comey For His Loyalty: “A few moments later, the President said, ‘I need loyalty, I expect loyalty.’ I didn’t move, speak, or change my facial expression in any way during the awkward silence that followed. We simply looked at each other in silence. The conversation then moved on, but he returned to the subject near the end of our dinner.” (Comey, 6/8/17).
|Jan. 30, 2017:||On Monday Morning, Yates Calls McGahn and Says the Evidence Against Flynn is Available for His Review: Yates made arrangements over the weekend for White House officials to meet at the DOJ and review the evidence against Flynn, and on Monday morning she told McGahn he could come in to view it.
On Monday Evening, Trump Fires Yates When She Refuses to Defend the Travel Ban in Court: As a result, Yates does not have knowledge as to where McGahn (or anyone else) came in to review the Trump evidence.
|Jan. 31 – Feb. 12, 2017:||The White House Does Nothing About Flynn for Two Weeks, Showing No Concern That the National Security Advisor Has Repeatedly Lied and Is Now Compromised: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯|
|Feb. 8-9, 2017:||Flynn Lies Again About Discussing Sanctions with Kislyak: “Flynn on Wednesday denied that he had discussed sanctions with Kislyak. Asked in an interview whether he had ever done so, he twice said, ‘No.'” (WP, 2/9/17).
Reports Break News of Intercepted Calls Showing That Flynn and Kislyak Discussed Sanctions: In response, Flynn changes his story to “indicate[ ] that while he had no recollection of discussing sanctions, he couldn’t be certain that the topic never came up.” (WP, 2/9/17).
|Feb. 10, 2017:||Trump Denies Knowledge of Reports of Flynn’s Communications with Kislyak: “Flynn traveled to Florida with Trump aboard Air Force One. During the flight, reporters asked Trump about the Washington Post story while on the way to Mar-a-Lago for the weekend. ‘I don’t know about that. I haven’t seen it,’ Trump said. ‘What report is that?’ He added, ‘I haven’t seen that. I’ll look into that.’ A White House official later said Trump’s ‘full day’ contributed to his lack of knowledge of the story.” (ABC, 3/31/17).|
|Feb. 13, 2017:||Flynn Resigns as National Security Advisor: “Michael T. Flynn, the national security adviser, resigned on Monday night after it was revealed that he had misled Vice President Mike Pence and other top White House officials about his conversations with the Russian ambassador to the United States. Mr. Flynn, who served in the job for less than a month, said he had given ‘incomplete information’ regarding a telephone call he had with the ambassador in late December about American sanctions against Russia, weeks before President Trump’s inauguration. Mr. Flynn previously had denied that he had any substantive conversations with Ambassador Sergey I. Kislyak, and Mr. Pence repeated that claim in television interviews as recently as this month.” (NYT, 2/13/17).|
|Feb. 14, 2017:||Trump Asks Comey To ‘Let Go’ of the Flynn Investigation: “When[ ] we were alone, the President began by saying, ‘I want to talk about Mike Flynn.’ Flynn had resigned the previous day. The President began by saying Flynn hadn’t done anything wrong in speaking with the Russians, but he had to let him go because he had misled the Vice President. He added that he had other concerns about Flynn, which he did not then specify. . . . The President then returned to the topic of Mike Flynn, saying, ‘He is a good guy and has been through a lot.’ He repeated that Flynn hadn’t done anything wrong on his calls with the Russians, but had misled the Vice President. He then said, ‘I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go. He is a good guy. I hope you can let this go.’ I replied only that ‘he is a good guy.’ I did not say I would ‘let this go.'” (Comey, 6/8/17).|
|March 20, 2017:||Comey Testifies Before Congress That There is an Ongoing Investigation Into Collusion Between Russia and the Trump Campaign:
|March 22, 2017:||Trump asks Director of National Intelligence Daniel Coats and CIA Director Mike Pompeo to Intervene in FBI’s Investigation of Russian Collusion: “The nation’s top intelligence official told associates in March that President Trump asked him if he could intervene with then-FBI Director James B. Comey to get the bureau to back off its focus on former national security adviser Michael Flynn in its Russia probe, according to officials. … Director of National Intelligence Daniel Coats attended a briefing at the White House together with officials from several government agencies. As the briefing was wrapping up, Trump asked everyone to leave the room except for Coats and CIA Director Mike Pompeo. The president then started complaining about the FBI investigation and Comey’s handling of it… After the encounter, Coats discussed the conversation with other officials and decided that intervening with Comey as Trump had suggested would be inappropriate, according to officials who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive internal matters.” (WP, 6/6/17).|
|March 23 and 24, 2017:||Trump Calls Coats and NSA Director Michael Rogers to Request That They Issue Statements Denying Any Evidence of Collusion with Russia: “Trump made separate appeals to the director of national intelligence, Daniel Coats, and to Adm. Michael S. Rogers, the director of the National Security Agency, urging them to publicly deny the existence of any evidence of collusion during the 2016 election.” (WP, 5/22/17).
Coats and Rogers Refuse the Request, Because the Statement Would Be Untrue: “Coats and Rogers refused to comply with the requests, which they both deemed to be inappropriate[.] Trump’s conversation with Rogers was documented contemporaneously in an internal memo written by a senior NSA official[.] . . . ‘The problem wasn’t so much asking them to issue statements, it was asking them to issue false statements about an ongoing investigation,’” a former senior intelligence official said of the request to Coats.” (WP, 5/22/17).
|March 30, 2017:||Trump Calls Comey Directly To Ask If He Can ‘Lift the Cloud’ of the Russia Investigation Away from His Presidency: “On the morning of March 30, the President called me at the FBI. He described the Russia investigation as ‘a cloud’ that was impairing his ability to act on behalf of the country. He said he had nothing to do with Russia, had not been involved with hookers in Russia, and had always assumed he was being recorded when in Russia. He asked what we could do to ‘lift the cloud.’ I responded that we were investigating the matter as quickly as we could, and that there would be great benefit, if we didn’t find anything, to our having done the work well. He agreed, but then re-emphasized the problems this was causing him. Then the President asked why there had been a congressional hearing about Russia the previous week – at which I had, as the Department of Justice directed, confirmed the investigation into possible coordination between Russia and the Trump campaign.” (Comey, 6/8/17).|
|April 11, 2017:||Trump Calls Comey Again to Ask What Progress He Has Made In Getting Out the News That Trump Is Not Being Investigated: “On the morning of April 11, the President called me and asked what I had done about his request that I “get out” that he is not personally under investigation. I replied that I had passed his request to the Acting Deputy Attorney General, but I had not heard back. He replied that “the cloud” was getting in the way of his ability to do his job. He said that perhaps he would have his people reach out to the Acting Deputy Attorney General. I said that was the way his request should be handled. I said the White House Counsel should contact the leadership of DOJ to make the request, which was the traditional channel. He said he would do that and added, “Because I have been very loyal to you, very loyal; we had that thing you know.” I did not reply or ask him what he meant by “that thing.” I said only that the way to handle it was to have the White House Counsel call the Acting Deputy Attorney General. He said that was what he would do and the call ended.” (Comey, 6/8/17).|
|May 3, 2017:||Comey Testifies That the Russia-Trump Collusion Investigation Is Still Ongoing:
|May 8, 2017:||Trump Informs Rosenstein of His Intent to Fire Comey: “On May 8, I learned that President Trump intended to remove Director Comey and sought my advice and input. Notwithstanding my personal affection for Director Comey, I thought it was appropriate to seek a new leader. I wrote a brief memorandum to the Attorney General summarizing my longstanding concerns about Director Comey’s public statements concerning the Secretary Clinton email investigation. I chose the issues to include in my memorandum. Before finalizing the memorandum on May 9, I asked a senior career attorney on my staff to review it. That attorney is an ethics expert who has worked in the Office of the Deputy Attorney General during multiple administrations. He was familiar with the issues. I informed the senior attorney that the President was going to remove Director Comey, that I was writing a memorandum to the Attorney General summarizing my own concerns, and that I wanted to confirm that everything in my memorandum was accurate. He concurred with the points raised in my memorandum. I also asked several other career Department attorneys to review the memorandum and provide edits.” (Rosenstein, 5/19/17). Notably, Rosenstein’s memo does not actually recommend Comey’s firing.|
|May 9, 2017:||Trump Fires Comey, White House States That Trump Was Simply Following Rosenstein’s Recommendation: Initially, the White House’s messaging is (mostly) unified and targeted: Comey was fired on Rosenstein’s recommendation. “Sessions forwarded Rosenstein’s memo to Trump and recommended that he remove Comey from his role. “Based on my evaluation, and for the reasons expressed by the Deputy Attorney General in the attached memorandum, I have concluded that a fresh start is needed at the leadership of the FBI,” Sessions’ letter said. White House press secretary Sean Spicer also reiterated during a news briefing that night that the decision to fire Comey was driven entirely by the Department of Justice and Rosenstein. … ‘It was all him,’ Spicer said, referring to Rosenstein. ‘No one from the White House. That was a DOJ decision.’ The next day, Vice President Pence told reporters that Rosenstein had independently reviewed and recommended that Comey be fired. Later, however, deputy press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said that Trump had actually been considering firing Comey for months, and that he had asked Sessions and Rosenstein for their recommendations.” (Business Insider, 5/13/17).|
|May 11, 2017:||Trump Changes Course, Admits During Interview That He Decided To Fire Comey Because of the Russia Investigation: “[Rosenstein] made a recommendation, he’s highly respected, very good guy, very smart guy. The Democrats like him, the Republicans like him. He made a recommendation. But regardless of [the] recommendation, I was going to fire Comey. Knowing there was no good time to do it! And in fact when I decided to just do it I said to myself, I said, ‘You know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story, it’s an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should’ve won.'” (NBC, Holt interview, 5/11/17).|