George Zimmerman’s written police statement, taken on the night that he shot Trayvon Martin, has now been released by his defense counsel, along with several audio recordings of oral statements he gave. I have not been able to listen to the recorded statements yet, but my transcript of the handwritten statement is as follows:
In August of 2011 my neighbors house was broken into while she was with her infant son. The intruders attempted to attack her and her child; however, SPD reported to the scene of the crime and the robbers fled, my wife saw the intruders running from the home and became scared of the rising crime within our neighborhood. I, an my neighbors formed a “Neighborhood Watch Program.” We were instructed by the SPD to call the non-emergency line if we saw anything suspicious & 911 if we saw a crime in progress. Tonight, I was on my way to the grocery store when I saw a male approximately 5’11” to 6’2″ casually walking in the rain, looking into homes. I pulled my vehicle over and called SPD non-emergency phone number. I told the dispatcher what I had witnesses, the dispatcher took note of my location & the suspect fled to a [darkened?] area of the sidewalk, as the dispatch was asking me for an exact location the suspect emerged from the darkness and circled my vehicle. I could not hear if he said anything. The suspect once again disappeared between the back of some houses. The dispatch once again asked for my exact location. I could not remember the name of the street so I got out of my car to look for a street sign. The dispatch asked me for a description and the direction the suspect went. I told the dispatch I did not know but I was out of my vehicle looking for a street sign & the direction the suspect went. The dispatch told me not to follow the suspect & that an officer was in route. As I headed back to my vehicle the suspect emerged from the darkness and said “you got a problem” I said “no” the suspect said “you do now”. And [illegible] and tried to find my phone to dial 911 the suspect punched me in the face. I fell backwards onto my back. The suspect got on top of me. I called “Help!” several times. The suspect told me “shut the fuck up” as I tried to sit up right. The suspect grabbed my head and slammed it into the concrete sidewalk several times. I continued to yell “Help!” each time I attempted to sit up, the suspect slammed my head into the side walk, my head felt like it was going to explode. I tried to slide out from under the suspect and continue to yell “Help”. As I slid the suspect covered my mouth and nose and stopped my breathing. At this point, I felt the suspect reach for my now exposed firearm and said “you gonna die tonight motha [fuckin’?].” I unholstered my firearm in fear for my life as he had assured he was going to kill me and fired one shot into his torso. The suspect got back allowing me to sit up and said “you got me.” At this point I slid out from underneath him and got on top of the suspect holding his hands away from his body. An onlooker appeared and asked me if I was ok, I said “no” he said “I am calling 911″ I said I don’t need you to call 911 I already called them I need you to help me restrain this guy.” At this point a SPD officer arrived and asked who shot him” & I said “I did” and I placed my hands ontop of my head and told the officer where my personal firearm was holstered. The officer handcuffed me and disarmed me. The officer then placed me into the back of his vehicle.
This statement is going to be a very big problem for Zimmerman’s defense team. It is more troubling than I expected — many of the more incongruous and bizarre claims that were in contained in the reports relayed by George Zimmerman’s brother and father are also present in Zimmerman’s own statement, and they are not adding up.
Even taking this statement in the most favorable light for the defense, it contains several factual inaccuracies and at least one gaping omission that Zimmerman’s counsel is going to have to explain. Some incorrect or distorted recollections are to be expected — witnesses are, in general, very bad at remembering a precise account of high stress events. That Zimmerman’s statement contains some odd inaccuracies is not notable in itself, or a sign that Zimmerman intentionally tried to misstate the truth. Zimmerman’s account, however, contains a number of troubling, self-serving statements that are inconsistent with the known facts of this case.
Here are excerpts of some of the more significant allegations in the statement, and a brief summary of the significance of those allegations.
Tonight, I was on my way to the grocery store when I saw a male approximately 5’11” to 6’2″ casually walking in the rain, looking into homes.
Zimmerman lives in the far southwest corner of the neighborhood. Both entrances to the neighborhood complex are on the same road that Zimmerman lives on, and not on Twin Trees, where Zimmerman’s car was parked and where the first encounter between the two occurred. Why was Zimmerman on Twin Trees Ln., then? Zimmerman claims he just happened to notice Trayvon as he was driving to the grocery store, but it seems more likely Zimmerman pursued Trayvon in his car even before the call to police was made.
I have yet to see it confirmed precisely where Zimmerman’s truck was parked, or which way it was facing, but the consensus seems to be he was just east of the dog-leg of Twin Trees Ln., in the north side lane, facing towards the club house. In order to be in this location, Zimmerman would have had to have taken a very odd path out of the neighborhood complex.
[A]s the dispatch was asking me for an exact location the suspect emerged from the darkness and circled my vehicle. I could not hear if he said anything. The suspect once again disappeared between the back of some houses. The dispatch once again asked for my exact location.
Zimmerman’s call to the non-emergency line does not support this part of Zimmerman’s statement. In that call, Zimmerman does not narrate either (1) Trayvon “circling” his vehicle, or (2) Zimmerman losing sight of Trayvon on two separate occasions. In the phone call, we hear Zimmerman describing Trayvon “coming to check me out,” and then “running,” but Zimmerman never states that he lost sight of Trayvon before that. Nor does he mention any “circling” — only “approaching” and then passing by Zimmerman’s truck.
The suspect once again disappeared between the back of some houses. The dispatch once again asked for my exact location. I could not remember the name of the street so I got out of my car to look for a street sign.
First, there are exactly three streets in Zimmerman’s neighborhood. Three. It defies all reason that Zimmerman, the dedicated neighborhood watch leader, could not even name the three streets that make up his neighborhood. Additionally, the call logs from Zimmerman’s prior calls to the police seem to indicate that Zimmerman was repeatedly able to direct officers to precise crossroads in the neighborhood, reporting incidents at “nearest Intersection: TWIN TREES LN & LONG OAK WAY”. A review of the transcripts of those calls would be necessary to be sure, but I suspect that will be easily confirmed.
And second, there are no street signs anywhere near where Zimmerman’s car was parked, where the shooting took place, or anywhere in between. If Zimmerman was going to look for a street sign, he was going the wrong way. In fact, in the call to police, Zimmerman freely admits his purpose in exiting the vehicle was to follow Trayvon:
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
So Zimmerman’s written statement does not provide his prior admitted reason for getting out of his vehicle, and substitutes it with a nonsensical alternative explanation. Why would Zimmerman lie about his reason for getting out of the car, when the truth was not even particularly detrimental to his claims? It does show that Zimmerman was aware of a need to rewrite the events, starting even with basic details.
The dispatch told me not to follow the suspect & that an officer was in route. As I headed back to my vehicle the suspect emerged from the darkness and said “you got a problem” I said “no” the suspect said “you do now”.
Dispatch instructed Zimmerman not to follow the suspect at approximately 7:11:55 – 7:12:05pm. My best estimate of when the encounter between Zimmerman and Trayvon occurred is between 7:15:30 – 7:15:45pm, and it seems unlikely based on available testimony that it occurred any sooner. So that is, conservatively, an entire three minute period of events, which Zimmerman’s statement utterly omits, and which his statement glosses over as if it were a period of only a few seconds.
In the minimum 200 second time period that elapsed between Zimmerman being instructed to return to his vehicle and the time of the fight, what did Zimmerman do? We do not know, and his statement to police never explains it. The physical altercation between Zimmerman and Trayvon occurred ~35 meters from the location of Zimmerman’s truck — he could have walked there and back to his truck again three times over, in the time that elapsed.
Zimmerman apparently believes that his actions during that time period are best left unstated. We can only speculate as to why.
[E]ach time I attempted to sit up, the suspect slammed my head into the side walk[.]
Trayvon’s body was found over a body length away from the sidewalk. The shell casing from Zimmerman’s gun was found ~4 ft from the sidewalk. Zimmerman’s back and the fronts of his boots and the front cuffs of his pants are damp, and either shown in photos or reported by witnesses to be covered in grass. Witnesses also reported the fight occuring in the grass between the houses.
It is definitely possible that the fight between the two occurred partially on the sidewalk, but this part of Zimmerman’s story has always felt wrong to me — it just does not add up. But, based on released evidence so far, it is impossible to get any better of a reconstruction of how the fight actually played out.
As I slid the suspect covered my mouth and nose and stopped my breathing. At this point, I felt the suspect reach for my now exposed firearm and said “you gonna die tonight motha [fuckin’?]”. I unholstered my firearm in fear for my life as he had assured he was going to kill me and fired on shot into his torso.
This statement reads like it was perfectly scripted to provide a self-defense claim. Zimmerman’s own stated reason for shooting Trayvon was not based on Trayvon’s unarmed physical assault, but rather on Trayvon’s “assur[ances]” that he would kill Zimmerman. If you’re going to claim self-defense, it can’t hurt to make the claim that your victim conveniently notified you of his murderous intent seconds before you shot him.
Apparently, Zimmerman did not consider using lethal force during the beating until Trayvon made a threat to take Zimmerman’s own gun away, and the “fear for [his] life” only came as a result of Zimmerman’s own firearm being introduced to the fight. But nothing about this description of the fight makes sense, no matter how I try to picture how it might have happened. (1) With a single hand, Trayvon was able to cover Zimmerman’s airway sufficiently to stop his breathing. (2) With his other hand, Trayvon was able to grab Zimmerman’s holstered weapon. (3) Despite not being able to breathe, Zimmerman does not use his (apparently unrestrained) hands to clear his airway. Instead while Trayvon was laying on top of him and while Trayvon was also grabbing at the gun, Zimmerman was able to unholster the gun at his side — presumably single-handedly, using only the hand on the same side as the gun, as Trayvon was on top of him — .raise the gun from his waist to chest level, push Trayvon far enough off of him in order to place the gun between himself and Trayvon, and fire. (4) The first 911 call shows that the “help!” calls continue right up to, and are cut off by, the screams for help. Zimmerman was apparently still able to shout during this time period, despite having had his breathing “stopped” by Trayvon.
It doesn’t make sense. It is possible, however, that owing to the stress of the fight and the intensity of the moment, Zimmerman is remembering the details out of order, leading to the story’s incoherency.
An onlooker appeared and asked me if I was ok, I said “no” he said “I am calling 911”
I wonder if the “onlooker” referred to hear is witness “John,” who reported stating during the fight that he was calling 911? If so, then either Zimmerman is completely wrong about events, or John apparently only stated he was calling 911 after Trayvon was already dead.
At this point I slid out from underneath him and got on top of the suspect holding his hands away from his body.
This could explain why there is contradicting witness testimony regarding who was on top and who was on bottom of the fight. The witness who reported seeing someone in a “white shirt” on top may have seen Zimmerman pinning Trayvon after he was already dead.
-Susan
A link to the entire walk through.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/us/documents-tell-zimmermans-side-in-martin-shooting.html?pagewanted=all
Just wanted to point out another lie. The ME said both his lungs were perforated by fragments instantaneously collapsing both lungs. A quote from another blog;
“Both of Trayvon Martin’s lungs were collapsed by the gunshot. This is according to the autopsy report. Both lungs were also pierced by jacket fragments or the bullet core. This would immediately prevent the pressure necessary to generate sound. It’s a no brainer.”
http://liberalforum.org/liberalforum/index.php?/topic/121352-the-ultimate-trayvon-martin-thread/page__st__4975
But Z’s story states that he said this after he shot him.
“The suspect got back allowing me to sit up and said “you got me.”
If Z is to stick to his story that Z absolutely said this, the only way that is trure is if he said it before Z shot him. That implies that TM surrendered to Z before he got shot. Not self defense.
OR
Z is lying.
Both of these are BAD!
Sorry, “If Z is to stick to his story that Z” was supposed to read “If Z is to stick to his story that TM”
How about this witness statement, she says she saw a body on the ground, then heard neighbor say he’s going to call 911
(Pdf doc)
http://tinyurl.com/8n68bmr
Page 21
Witness Interview:
Going to take her dog outside, opened glass door saw body on ground.
Heard some one moaning “as if in pain” but not in pain.
Neighbor three doors down was asking “are you okay buddy”
Groaning response.
Neighbor said he was going to call 911
She set alarm and went upstairs Det Serino timed 1:30
She saw flashlights outside and Police
She saw paramedics carrying something
Then she heard a “POP” she has never heard a gun before.
Clarifyiing she said that after the police were there she saw
more than one flashlight and heard the pop then.
She heard sirens then the pop
She arrived home 7:15 – 7:30 pm
She saw GZ at HOA meeting in past year.
Thought it was “kid noise”
Shut door when she heard neighbor say “911”
Saw silhouette of person on the ground.
Called 911 went upstairs saw flashlights heard sirens
——————
Assuming Zimmerman is telling the truth about any of this, my assumption has been that, if Trayvon said anything after he was shot, it was “you shot me,” or words to that effect.
Zimmerman could have misheard that as “you got me.” No one outside of a bad comic book says “you got me” after being shot, but it’s plausible that Trayvon might has said something like “you shot me,” out of shock and horror.
After the shot it was impossible for Trayvon to speak, no matter how much he wanted to, IF he still had brain function.
The lungs are like balloons, they are inflated and deflated by muscles that pull on the diaphragm, that creates positive or negative pressure in side the chest cavity, and that is how the lungs push air out and pull air in.
If the lungs are pierced, however, the system cannot work!
As the diaphragm tries to pull air into the lungs, it instead pulls air in through the hole in the chest. When the chest contracts, the air goes out the same way. There is no pressurized airflow to work the vocal chords.
Read the transcripts of the paramedics, when they tried to blow air into Trayvon’s lungs doing CPR, they heard gurgling in his chest and discovered the chest wound. They gave up.
“you shot me,”
Maybe he had hearing loss from the firing. Maybe Martin’s adrenalin was pumping, and then in the sudden trauma he forgot his lines. Maybe his hands went to his chest and Zimmerman was basing his understanding on the hand motions rather than the sound.
You got me.
And “maybe” Trayvon was a Ninja and had 7 lives!
You are hillarious with your vain attempts to find every possible reason why Zimmerman is the symbol of honesty and truthfulness!
Enjoy. . .I’m out of here!
Well, I just watched the walk-through and it seems to hold up.
As long as you haven’t already heard the recording of his call the night before or looked at the timeline.
Someone with more patience and ambition than I is going to have to figure out how the young lady’s recounting fits with any of that, if it does.
Interesting that he just happens to spot him right at Frank Taaffe’s house (but doesn’t say “I saw him right here, right in front of Frank’s place)
curiouser and curiouser
unitron
I haven’t gotten a chance to listen to any of the audio or watch the walk-through, may not be until this weekend before I do. How’s the walk-through video compare with the written statement? Any glaring inconsistencies?
“I haven’t gotten a chance to listen to any of the audio or watch the walk-through, may not be until this weekend before I do. How’s the walk-through video compare with the written statement? Any glaring inconsistencies?”
All I’ve been through so far that’s new today is the video of the walkthrough.
He doesn’t really seem to account for all the time between when the heavy breathing stops 10 seconds after we don’t need you to do that and the first 911 call, although his account of the struggle makes a start time of 7:15 :30- ish PM seem plausible.
It’s the time between 7:12:14-ish and the next 3:15 that he seems to have spent a lot of time doing very little.
Like I say, by itself, the video works.
When you try to match it up with times known from his call to the police, it gets complicated.
slightly OT, but whonoze spends a lot more time and effort than I would have been able to on trying to bring some sense and order to the young lady’s account(s), although this was done before today’s releases and so does not incorporate them.
Still worth a read and maybe giving him an attaboy.
http://whonoze.wordpress.com/2012/06/16/deedees-account/
unitron
He says in the walk through that he shot TM about 10 feet from the T. I just don’t see how any jury is going to accept this. Either he is lying, or he chased him the 30 yards to were the body was. I was really waiting for this and expecting Z to explain this a lot better than he did. Basically it is the same to RZ account.
The walk through MAY APPEAR to hold up. . .with a couple of “slips” that I will mention later.
But if you take the time and the pain (it is long. . .close to 4 hours! I listened to 3 hours of it) to listen to all the interviews from 2/26 (part 1 and 2, by Detective Singleton) and from 2/29 (part 1, 2, and 3. . .with the 3 being the most informative because of the pointed questions asked by both Serino and Singleton), you will find even more “funny discrepancies,”
I posted the notes I took while listening to those interviews under the other link, and I don’t think it would be fair to clutter TWO threads with the same information, but I hope some of you will go and look there, or, maybe, if Susan allows me, I will be happy to copy and paste those impressions in this thread.
Two “weird” things I noticed in the 2/27 walk through that was released today are kind of funny:
First, did anyone notice how Zimmerman, while describing how Trayvon Martin was “pressing his hand on Z’s mouth and nose” had a very interesting “Freudian Slip” and started saying “I PRESSED MY HAND. . .” then he went back to his “HE pressed his hand on my mouth and nose,”
The second one is more of a “body language thing.”
Has anyone noticed how, when Z demonstrates how Trayvon attempted to grab his gun (while pressing his hand on Z’s mouth and nose, and smashing Z’s head on the pavement, and pinning him down) WITH HIS RIGHT HAND, obviously, since Trayvon was right handed, Zimmerman demonstrated how he “gained control of Trayvon’s wrist” (when he hadn’t been able to “gain control” of the hand pressed on his mouth, or the hand that smashed his head in the concrete!), and grabbed his own gun.
Did you notice the gesture where Z demonstrate how he gains control of Trayvon’s wrist. . .AND grabs his own gun. . .FROM THE BACK of the right hip. . .
This seems to indicate that Zimmerman was carrying his gun (in a nylon holster) not to the front or even front side of his pants. . .but to the BACK of his hip. . .and how does one who is PINNED DOWN, with his back flat on the grass, almost unconscious, manages to get a gun placed in that position. . .squeezed between the ground and his hip, AND while Trayvon was straddling him at about waist height? How does Trayvon (so busy he is “suffocating Z, and Smashing his head in concrete) even SEE that gun to the back of Zimmerman’s hip?
Just a puzzling observation. ..I’m sure there will be plenty of spinning to explain this!
“He says in the walk through that he shot TM about 10 feet from the T. I just don’t see how any jury is going to accept this. Either he is lying, or he chased him the 30 yards to were the body was. I was really waiting for this and expecting Z to explain this a lot better than he did. Basically it is the same to RZ account.”
It is at most 20 feet. You obviously do not know where the body was. And he indicated where John saw him from, which would be hard to do because of the wing wall. So he actually was further south than where he was remembering on the walk through.
http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f9?isVid=1&isUI=1
I can’t see, I think they removed it.
In science it is recognized there is a big difference between the words “precision” and “accuracy,” because the former can never make up for conditions where the latter may have large variation.
Apparently that key distinction is not recognized in legal blogs.
The problem is that Zimmerman never expected the events, as they were unfolding, to be of such importance that he had to concentrate on every detail and remember it exactly. So, to “catch” him for murder, because his statement is not as “precise” as someone (antagonistic to him) may “like,” does not mean too much in the normal give and take of variances an honest witness can have in real life.
Here is a key part of Zimmerman’s statement:
“The suspect once again disappeared between the back of some houses. The dispatch once again asked for my exact location. I could not remember the name of the street so I got out of my car to look for a street sign. The dispatch asked me for a description and the direction the suspect went. I told the dispatch I did not know but I was out of my vehicle looking for a street sign & the direction the suspect went. The dispatch told me not to follow the suspect & that an officer was in route. As I headed back to my vehicle the suspect emerged from the darkness and said “you got a problem” I said “no” the suspect said “you do now”.”
So he does remember a jumble of events that occurred around the same time (that is the way the human mind operates) that when all pieced together, fits most if not all of the dispatcher tape. Indeed, expecting him to remember with 100% accuracy is not reasonable — and there are innumerable studies on human memory and witness that would back up that conclusion. We have the exact tape and, obviously Zimmerman is not expected to have a tape recorder in his mind.
For example, he says in the statement: “I could not remember the name of the street so I got out of my car to look for a street sign. The dispatch asked me for a description and the direction the suspect went. I told the dispatch I did not know but I was out of my vehicle looking for a street sign & the direction the suspect went.”
So all he says above, is consistent with the goals of: a) following (after leaving his car) to try to keep the suspect, who disappeared, in sight; b) getting an exact street address that could be usable by the police; and c) giving a visual description of the direction the suspect went that would also be usable by the police when they arrived. I see no problems whatsoever with that testimony.
Nit-picking for “precision” to convict for murder in an environment when Zimmerman is to be lauded for how good he did remember such traumatic events after the fact is not justified. Zimmerman got a 90 grade on his memory, not a failing grade convicting him of murder.
“In science it is recognized there is a big difference between the words “precision” and “accuracy,” because the former can never make up for conditions where the latter may have large variation.”
What?
ac·cu·ra·cy
[ak-yer-uh-see] Show IPA
noun, plural ac·cu·ra·cies.
1.the condition or quality of being true, correct, or exact; freedom from error or defect; precision or exactness; correctness.
2.Chemistry, Physics . the extent to which a given measurement agrees with the standard value for that measurement. Compare precision ( def. 6 ) .
3.Mathematics . the degree of correctness of a quantity, expression, etc. Compare precision ( def. 5 ) .
VS.
pre·ci·sion
[pri-sizh-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1.the state or quality of being precise.
2.accuracy; exactness: to arrive at an estimate with precision.
3.mechanical or scientific exactness: a lens ground with precision.
4.punctiliousness; strictness: precision in one’s business dealings.
5.Mathematics . the degree to which the correctness of a quantity is expressed. Compare accuracy ( def. 3 ) .
6.Chemistry, Physics . the extent to which a given set of measurements of the same sample agree with their mean. Compare accuracy ( def. 2 ) .
You are insane dude!!!!!!! what in the hell are you talking about? Do you see where they both say compare the other???????
And
variances
5.Law .
a.a difference or discrepancy, as between two statements or documents in law that should agree.
b.a departure from the cause of action originally stated in the complaint.
And lastly, this is about the most disgusting example of hypocrisy I have ever seen “Nit-picking for “precision”
You and your kin have been ” Nit-picking for “precision” ever since this started, just look at you statements about the 7-11 video. Dude I am starting to wonder if someone should be worried about you. It is starting to sound like you might need medical attention. Please, if you are not feeling OK call 911 and tell them you need to be taken to a hospital. I hope you get the help you need PeterO.
Cheers
As strange as it feels to be defending PeterO, he has a point.
Accuracy is how close you are to the truth.
Precision is how many decimal places or significant digits there are in your answer, even though your answer may be nowhere near the truth.
For example, the precise amount of money at my disposal is $991,234,567,890.99
Wouldn’t you call that a very precise answer?
Would you call it accurate?
Would I be here on a Friday night if it were?
unitron
Example, someone says on a very hazy day with little visibility, “I see that tree across the field and it is 500 feet 10.12223 inches away.”
Someone else repeats saying the witness saw “the tree is 500 feet 10.12223 inches away.” So people tend to believe it because it must very likely be true because of the exact PRECISION in the detailed distance stated when, in reality, the witness may never have seen the tree or it could have really been 250 feet away, so the ACCURACY of the witness’s distance estimate had a major problem.
Nit-pick all you want. Spin all of the elaborate sand castle theories in the sky you want. None of it will convict Zimmerman.
sandbagger, READ THE VERY DEFINITIONS YOU POSTED:
ac·cu·ra·cy
…
3.Mathematics . the degree of correctness of a quantity, expression, etc. Compare precision ( def. 5 ) .
pre·ci·sion
…
5.Mathematics . the degree to which the correctness of a quantity is expressed. Compare accuracy ( def. 3 )
Note the usage of the word “Compare” to show the terms, as used, are usually related but are not the same [when used in the related context I described.]
Your nit-picking such precise details you describe (in your mind) is not worth much at trial.
Not to quibble, but what exactly does Zimmerman mean by the police dispatch told him to get the “exact location”?
Do you think Zimmerman’s statement was anything close to accurate? I sure don’t.
I no longer have time to be part of this blog. You all enjoy yourself s. Good luck 😉
Sorry to see you go Sandbagger. Please come back soon : ^ )
So it turns out my initial diagram of events was way off. Using the info from Zimmerman’s walk through, here is a three-stage diagram of how events went down. I have no artistic ability to speak of, so just deal with these crappy MS Paint renditions.
Diagram 1:
Green dots are where people start, red dots are where they finish in this frame. Blue is Trayvon walking, orange is Zimmerman driving.
Orange Box #1 is where Zimmerman first saw Trayvon, cutting through some houses on his way back from 7-11. Trayvon is taking a short cut. Zimmerman then drives past Trayvon, and parks in front of the club house. Orange Box #2 is where Zimmerman first parked. Zimmerman makes a call to police dispatch while parking here. Zimmerman then sees Trayvon walk past him, (“looking at houses and stuff”) which is exactly the path Trayvon would take on his way home. Zimmerman’s narration claims that he lost Trayvon at this point, and pursuant to dispatch directions, Zimmerman follows the direction Trayvon went in his car. Zimmerman then drives up to Orange Box #3, where he parks and leaves his car. Zimmerman says that Trayvon walks back on the cut through, and then disappears between the houses.
Diagram 2:
Blue line is Trayvon’s pathway, after he re-appears from behind the houses — Zimmerman states that Trayvon then circles Zimmerman’s car, and then disappears back where he was at the beginning of this diagram. Again, orange box is Zimmerman’s car, green dot is Trayvon’s start, and red dot is Trayvon’s finishing point.
Zimmerman states that he momentarily loses sight of Trayvon, who was cutting behind the houses on the middle walkway, but that Trayvon then reappears: “I saw him standing …. I saw him walking back that way, and then cut through the back of the houses. He looked back and he noticed me and he cut back through the houses. I was still on the phone… and then he came back and started walking up towards through the grass and then came down and circled my car and I told the operator that, he was circling my car and I didn’t hear if he said anything. He had his hand in his waistband, and I think I told the operator that. They asked where I am, and I said I don’t know, and he goes we need an address, and I said I don’t know an address, I think I gave them my address.”
This recollection of events is wrong — Zimmerman did not give his home address until after he exited his vehicle to pursue Trayvon. Zimmerman also does not narrate anything that could possibly be construed as Trayvon “circling” his car. Police dispatch even instructs Zimmerman to “tell me if he does anything” during this time frame of events — and Zimmerman agrees he will, but does not describe any “circling.”
Diagram 3:
Orange block is still Zimmerman’s car. Red line in Zimmerman’s path after he leaves the vehicle. Blue line is Trayvon’s presumed path.
After the exchange relayed in Diagram 2, Zimmerman states that he “g[ot] out of his car and started walking.” Zimmerman’s claim is that he does not know the road name he is on, so he has to walk across to Retreat View Circle, and find an address on Retreat View Circle, because he does not know the name of the road that he is on in his neighborhood (which has three streets). When Zimmerman gets to the “T”, he states that he told dispatch that “he’s gone” and that he lost Trayvon. Dispatch then tells Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon, and Zimmerman says “okay” but keeps walking across the path. Zimmerman walked across the pathway to Retreat View Circle, and then turned around to walk back to his car.
It apparently takes Zimmerman three minutes to walk less than twenty feet. Zimmerman is omitting a huge chunk of events, there is no other explanation for how the jump in time occurs.
According to Zimmerman, during his three minute walk from the far right of his path and back to the “T” junction, right when Zimmerman gets to the west of the “T”, Trayvon then”emerges from behind him” and punches him in the face, at the yellow X.
The fight then somehow progresses to the red X, where Zimmerman shoots and kills Trayvon.
The three minutes from 7:12:30pm to 7:15:30pm are still entirely unaccounted for. Zimmerman’s story also loses any coherency from the point from where Zimmerman’s path, in red, turns around, because after that there are few specifics, and nothing that matches the time frame of events as recorded in 911 and police calls. Zimmerman, in the walkthrough interview, repeatedly states “you know, I don’t remember” and “somewhere around there” and “somehow we got over here” and “I tried squirming and squirming”, and other vague, nonspecific descriptions.
It doesn’t add up. It doesn’t prove murder by a long shot, but it definitely proves Zimmerman to be a liar.
One problem with the new explanation is that the surveillance videos shows Martin was sitting by the pool for quite some time. So it looks like Zimmerman spotted him when he left the pool area and began to walk by the club house, not before or further in the direction of the 7-11 (the time element based on the distance from the 7-11 supports Martin hanging out by the pool for about 10-15 minutes).
I haven’t gotten to Zimmerman statement about where he went with his car.
If Martin was sitting next to the pool for 10-15 minutes then the new time line is way off and it is likely Zimmerman only first saw Martin as he left the pool area and passed the club house towards the back path.
On the dispatcher tape, Zimmerman, when the dispatcher asks Zimmerman for the address he is parked in front of (at about 3:20 on in the tape), Zimmerman says “it’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address.” Zimmerman had no reason to lie on the dispatcher tape when he said he didn’t know the address and that is what he said in his statement later that evening.
After Zimmerman says he doesn’t know the address he is parked at to the dispatcher, Zimmerman then gives a preliminary location to meet the police relative to the “mailboxes” as a landmark, not a street name. He then changes his mind says to have the police call him when they arrive which supports his contention he then walked to see a street sign which would be to tell the police, when they arrived to meet him, a street name.
I see no lying there. Or any motivation to lie.
Re: the “circling” of Zimmerman’s car, one of the detective in the audio interviews asked Trayvon how far from his SUV Trayvon was when he “circled” around it. . .and Zimmerman answered “about a car length,” which doesn’t seem to qualify as a “threatening” or even very curious “circling!
I watched the Zimmerman tape while he was in the police car retracing the events until he was looking for an address. His statement was signed on Feb 26 the night of the incident. Holding aside the fight itself, in general, he appears to have jumbled facts in comparison to the dispatcher tape both in the statement and walk through video before the fight.
However, all the jumbled facts are as innocuous as what is on the tape itself. And Zimmerman’s general goals of keeping the suspect in sight, reporting to the dispatcher what he could, losing sight of the suspect, meeting up with the arriving police and looking for an address to meet him at in either version, are not at all incriminating, only jumbled. Zimmerman had NO advantage to lying AND he had to know his dispatcher call had been tape recorded.
The only realistic way to account for his discrepancies, all of which are innocuous and don’t help or hurt him one way or the other, is that he was suffering from some serious shock and/or PTSD symptoms of not thinking clearly after the trauma of the fight and shooting.
It also looks like he was possibly suffering from a grade 1 or grade 2 concussion, the symptoms for which are similar to the way he was acting and felt the night of the incident and in the following days. Both the PTSD and concussion arguments will be for his expert witnesses to lay out in more detail.
For anyone to say this proves “guilty,” that makes no sense. His jumbled versions do not benefit him any more than the dispatcher tape itself — which he had to know existed. It only shows severe mental trauma existed.
To a large extent, all his statement was, at least for the critical 4:30 minute period of the tape, was simply a memory test and he partially failed — but that failure gave him no advantage and he is now being called a “liar,” when what was really happening was almost certainly, the result of a severe mental shock in reaction to the events on the night of the shooting.
He doesn’t need PTSD to be muddleheaded, you can tell that from listening to him try to give directions on the phone call recording.
In fairness, though, in his place I can’t swear I’d get all the details and chronology right after the fact either.
unitron
Zimmerman, in his video taken in the police car, said he first saw Martin at 1440 Retreat View Circle. The surveillance video from the pool shows Martin sitting there for 10-15 minutes. So Martin, after leaving the pool area, was not going directly ‘home’ but was walking around in the opposite direction (back toward the 7-11) when Zimmerman first saw him and he then started in the direction of ‘home.’ Martin’s movements have to account for his sitting at the pool, as the pool surveillance video shows.
Well, Peter, I guess I missed it when you (or someone else) gave a link to Trayvon Martin’s video near the pool. And, I cannot find it in any search on the web.
So, would you be kind enough to provide such a link again. I am VERY interested on how that “sitting by the pool” piece fits into the puzzle, and obviously without the proof that such a video exist, and without seeing that video, I can’t figure out anything.
Susan said: “Zimmerman, in the walkthrough interview, repeatedly states “you know, I don’t remember” and “somewhere around there” and “somehow we got over here” and “I tried squirming and squirming”, and other vague, nonspecific descriptions.
It doesn’t add up. It doesn’t prove murder by a long shot, but it definitely proves Zimmerman to be a liar.”
It doesn’t prove Zimmerman is a liar, only that when combined with the rest of his statements, shows a man suffering from PTSD and a possible concussion who went through an extreme trauma and because of that could not remember all details of a life and death struggle in the dark.
To expect someone in his position to remember every detail, including every punch, roll, grapple, rather than the reasonable explanation for not remembering because of his feeling like his head is “bursting” and disoriented from the beating and having his head slammed to the cement, will not hold up. The reality is that if Zimmerman was a ‘calculating’ liar, he could have thought up a version in his favor that closely tracked any actual version in which he was out to harm Martin, roll for roll, movement for movement much better than not remembering all details.
A basic outline that needs some work:
1. Martin enters the complex from the 7-11 and ends up at the pool where he hangs out for 10-15 minutes.
2. Martin leaves the pool area and goes west on Retreat View Circle (away from ‘home’) at which point Zimmerman spots him wandering around at 1440 Retreat View Circle.
3. Zimmerman then drives towards the clubhouse and parks before Martin reaches him and keeps watching martin and calls the dispatcher.
4. Martin passes Zimmerman in his car on the phone and reaches and goes down the West-East path (“cut-off”). There are street lights on the larger streets.
5. Zimmerman moves his car (facing south) to just before the West-East path and Martin returns, circles the car and heads back again along that path.
I haven’t gotten to the ‘run’ part. Maybe someone can begin to fill in or correct the above.
It looks like Zimmerman, in his statement got the time of some events jumbled up.
The tape shows the dispatcher asked for the address where Zimmerman was parked after Zimmerman had left his truck. But Zimmerman, in his statement, says one of the reasons for leaving the truck was because the dispatcher asked again for his exact location and he didn’t know it (he seems to use the terms “address” and “street sign” interchangeably) so he wanted to get it for the dispatcher. So he appears to have gotten the order of events backwards in his memory but in both versions it is clear he didn’t know the exact address of where he was and wanted to get it for the dispatcher.
Frankly, all of this seems to help Zimmerman. The discrepancies are innocuous and really show he was under a lot of stress and misses details because of the trauma of PSTD and a possible concussion. This would explain, beyond a reasonable doubt, any inconsistencies in the fight and shooting particularly where the physical evidence supports self-defense.
So PeterO, you admit that, even though the dispatcher hadn’t yet asked for his exact address, Zimmerman got out of his car. When later asked why he got out of his car, he explains his actions on the basis of a prompt that hadn’t occurred.
Doesn’t this suggest to you Zimmerman had some other reason for getting out of his car (such as, you know, the one he admitted to during the non-emergency call) and then later, when trying to find a more innocent explanation for his actions, he tried to explain the reason he left his car on the basis of a question he remembered police dispatch asking? Unaware that a recording of the call would show that explanation to be false?
Susan, I am in a little while post my “updated” “final” timeline (you know how these things are). I will point out all minor inconsistencies and show they really are innocuous. There really isn’t anything to “admit” since minor inconsistencies are the rule not the exception. Remember, Zimmerman knew the dispatcher tape had been recorded so he was doing the best he could in the visual walk through.
All will be explained that dovetails the pool surveillance tape, the dispatcher tape and the visual walk through with the police (up until when Zimmerman is attacked). Look below a little later.
I don’t see how, in light of what I point out below, it is fair to say Zimmerman is a liar.
I guess I’m going to have to watch that video again, I thought he had Martin circling his Honda when it was parked in front of the clubhouse.
And the video seems to say that after he left the clubhouse and drove onto Twin Trees he parked on the northern curb, which would have let him shine his headlights onto the cut-through sidewalk, but now that I know he had a silver Honda, I’m really, really miffed that I can no longer find the still photos of a silver SUV, one from that night with a bunch of cop cars around and another apparently from early the next morning, because it doesn’t seem to have been turned the right way to have been parked the way Zimmerman supposedly was parked.
I wonder if he left his headlights on when he got out, and if the battery ran down overnight.
I did find a TV station video the other day that showed that SUV at night for a moment.
I’ll have to try to find it again so I can show y’all what I’m talking about.
I wish they had taken a lot more time with that walk-through and made Zimmerman get out of the car and go stand where he said Martin was standing and then walk where he said he saw Martin walk, instead of just generally and vaguely pointing.
And now thanks to PeterO I’m going to have to go watch paint dry in the swimming pool vids to get to the point where Trayvon’s sitting there.
unitron
You are correct about the car. Based on Zimmerman’s statements to Singleton on 2/26, he did park his car the second time he stopped on the northern curb of the twin trees lane and, he told Singleton that he left his headlights on, and that they were lighting at least part of the T junction pass through.
This is why one of his other statement later (to Serino) didn’t make sense, because when asked why he stayed on the T junction path for so long (several minutes) even after he hung up with the dispatcher, although it was raining. And Zimmerman answered “because he didn’t want to go back to his car in the dark, so he stayed where there was a little light” But. . .he had confirm that he had left his headlights on, shining into that pass through. . .all he had to do was “walk to the light!
I have never seen that “pool video.” And I cannot find a link. If you have one, would you please provide it again. Thank you.
I also wish the walk through had been more detailled. And I think Zimmerman had the opportunity to instruct two other persons (one playing Zimmerman, the other playing Trayvon) of how exactly the struggle started, where, have them lay down at the spot where Zimmerman was “pinned down” by Trayvon, etc. . .
That would have been a LOT clearer. . .especially the day after it happened, the traces of the struggle should still have been visible in the grass, the blood (if any) on the concrete, etc. . .
http://bcclist.com/2012/05/14/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-court-proceedings-and-trial/
post 213
It’s probably pool 1, but we’re talking a 45 minute video so I haven’t finished “watching the paint dry”.
This is the site of the guy, by the way, who listened to recordings of auto door chimes until he guessed, correctly we find out today, that Zimmerman drove a Honda Ridgeline.
Rain would have probably washed the blood off of the concrete if one of the local dogs didn’t come lick it up.
unitron
I am not sure the headlights are really a problem, a lot of newer cars when you close and lock the doors without the keys in the ignition they will automatically turn off the lights after a few minutes.
I do wish they would have had him walk Martins steps, this would have helped me piece this combined video timeline together.
Susan, I believe that your statement in point 4): “The first 911 call shows that the “help!” calls continue right up to, and are cut off by, the screams for help.” was meant to read “and are cut off by, the gunshot.” Yes? I noticed because that sudden quiet after the shot haunts me.
That’s how I took it, too.
What really haunts me is when TM says im begging you get offffffff. When Serino/Singleton audio 3 playback the witness 911 call @16:46 and ask him if he hears the voice in the background and he says no. He even states it doesn’t even sound like him(GZ). I have from the onset of this case, that his story was not credible. I think GZ thought this would never get to this point. He is sadly mistaken. June 29th should be interesting, O’mara seems to be a very smart dedicated lawyer. He already had a hard to case to begin with, GZ just made his work load double with everything that’s coming out.
Thanks for the heads up Unitron, I just started following this thread. Thanks Susan the other thread was bogging my computer down and almost impossible to pull up on my Nook or Smartphone. Also thanks for the Overhead pics, they look good to me. Tomorrow when I am more awake I will try to give a correlation on the video/audio times from the GZ call, Walkthough and the different 911 calls to see if they match up. Keep in mind Gilbreath did all of this before the first bond hearing and still said he had no contradictory evidence to who started the fight, If I am not mistaken anything before the first crime comitted (the start of the fight) would be aggravating circumstances at sentencing. From the sounds of the Lie Detector test questioning that was Sanford PD’s concern as well. The most important event seems to still be the start of the fight to determine Self Defense or Use of Force by Aggressor. BDLR still has to prove Beyond a Rasonable doubt that Zimmerman started the fight, and Zimmermans scenerio is not possible leaving the prosecutions theory as the only possible scenerio. If he BDLR and Corey can not reach that bar then the Jury has to find Not Guilty.
2 questions for the floor. Is there any piece of major evidence left that we do not now have access to? and – Can anyone provide a link to this pool video you are talking about?
As I said above–
http://bcclist.com/2012/05/14/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-court-proceedings-and-trial/
post 213
It’s probably pool 1, but we’re talking a 45 minute video so I haven’t finished “watching the paint dry”.
unitron
From a quick comparison I did last night, it didn’t look like much was matching up. In particular, the following exchange, at 1 minute into Zimmerman’s police call, stood out:
If in Zimmerman’s walk through, he does in fact claim that Trayvon “circled” his car while it was parked on Twin Tress Ln., then nothing about that is matching up. There’s no way Trayvon had time to cover that kind of ground in that span of time. Maybe I saw it wrong when I watched it through the first time — if anyone gets the opportunity, maybe check for that and see what Zimmerman actually says about the circling?
And if Trayvon was “near” the club house but coming “towards” Zimmerman, doesn’t that imply that Zimmerman was not near the clubhouse?
But in general, I cannot believe the “circling” ever occurred. Circling someone’s car is pretty clearly a threatening act — why the hell would Zimmerman not have reported this to the police dispatch he was on the phone with? And why the hell would he ever have gotten out of his car?
Susan, one suggestion that you add to you map is a distance measure in feet or yards so views can make reasonable estimates of time for walking. It would make things much easier. Along with a North-South arrow (I know the photo is aligned North-South but some may not realize that).
Why would the dispatcher chosen that moment to dispatch a police officer?
@unitron –
DailyKos has a good analysis although I don’t agree with all their video evidence findings. Apparently, the analysis has been removed. Not sure why.
Here’s the cached copy.. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-3jKfTUal9QJ:www.dailykos.com/story/2012/06/21/1101850/-Videos-show-Zimmerman-walking-around-the-clubhouse+zimmerman+site:dailykos.com&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Thanks for the DailyKos link.
It actually says where and when to watch in which video.
Although to be sure they saw what they say they think they thought they saw, they must have a much bigger and better monitor than mine.
How do you get Google to still do caches?
I’m wondering if PeterO’s thinking that he saw Martin hanging around the swimming pool was actually him seeing Zimmerman wandering around there with his flashlight, peeking into all the windows.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
unitron
@unitron –
re getting cache… When you do a google search, you can mouse over any one of the results. This will cause a set of >> to form to the right of that result. Mouse over the >> and a minipage/snapshot of the page will appear. At the top of that minipage there will be a link to the cache for that page if one exists.
Cool. I almost only use >> when I’m national searching Craigslist for TiVos and Craigslist doesn’t allow caching of their pages, so I didn’t know where it had disappeared to.
Now if only they’d regress image searches back the way they used to be.
unitron
Anot updated basic outline that needs a little work:
1. Martin enters the complex from the 7-11 and ends up at the pool where he hangs out for 10-15 minutes (see pool surveillance tape).
2. Martin leaves the pool area and goes west on Retreat View Circle (away from ‘home’) at which point Zimmerman spots him wandering around at 1440 Retreat View Circle (the address is from Zimmerman walk through while in police car).
3. Zimmerman then drives towards the clubhouse and parks at club house before Martin, now heading towards east ‘home” reaches him and he keeps watching martin and calls the dispatcher. From the time that call starts until the running is about 2 minutes (this seems important because, Martin walking seems to fit the next steps given the distances involved)
4. Martin passes Zimmerman sitting in his car on the phone and reaches and goes down the West-East path (“cut-off”) to about the North South path towards “home.” There are street lights on the main streets and enough light to see Martin from the car.
5. Zimmerman moves his car (facing south) to just before the West-East path and Martin doubles back and returns, circles the car and heads back again along that path. Then a little later Martin runs and Zimmerman gets out of the car.
6. For the next 2 or so minutes Zimmerman says he is just walking down the East West path to get an address for the dispatcher (who is still on the phone) and is apparently milling around waiting for the police while still on the phone till the end of the call 4:30 minutes after it started. Zimmerman also says he doesn’t see the suspect which is consistent with the dispatcher tape.
7. The total time this sequence should take from the start time of the dispatcher call is about 2 minutes based on Martin’s movements and if he was walking.
8. After the dispatcher call ends, Zimmerman, apparently is just milling around waiting for the police or possibly still looking for an address to give them when they arrive. He is around the area of the T-intersection of the two paths.
9. As he is about to end waiting in the rain and turns to head back to his truck Martin approaches from behind and attacks several feet South of the T- intersection on the North-South path.
This comes from the walk through tape where Zimmerman starts out in the police car and continues until the attack itself.
The only substantial difference in the statements and walk through, and the tape, is that Zimmerman has gotten events reversed as to when he started looking for an address/street sign (he appears to use the two terms interchangeably). In the tape he does this after exiting the truck and telling the dispatcher he doesn’t know the address he is parked at when asked, and in the statements he says he didn’t know the address when asked while in the truck and that was one reason for getting out of the truck. See my other post on the jumbling of that sequence.
correction:
7. The total time for this sequence until Martin starts running and disappears is about 2 minutes from the start of the dispatcher call. Martin’s movement distances over the path stated above, appears to fit well in that 2 minutes if he was walking.
How about a link to the specific pool tape about which you’re talking as well as a time reference to exactly how far into it Trayvon first appears?
Thanks.
unitron
unitron, there is a donation website that had been posted on the other thread that had all videos from the case. It had two pool videos, two club house videos. I lost the link but hopefully someone will post it again. In one of the pool tapes you can see at the other end someone tall and thin sitting in a chair for about 10-15 minutes. That was my source. It fits in with the fact that martin left the 7-11 at about 6:30 and the distance to ‘home’ is only about .8 mile so he got back to the complex in about 15-20 minutes at the most. As they say, everybody had to be somewhere. And it looks like Martin’s “somewhere” was by the pool for a while.
If you’re talking about bcclist, it has about 6 or 8 clubhouse videos, including two that show the swimming pool.
They’re 45 minutes long.
Each.
Could you at least provide a guesstimate to how far into them the part with Martin is?
Halfway? Near the end? Within the first 5 minutes?
unitron
One giant-sized whopper of a lie was told by Zimmerman in his 2/29/12 interview #3. Zimmerman said he walked across the entire top portion of the Tee and had reached Retreat View Circle while he was still on the phone with police dispatch. When pressed about why Zimmerman hadn’t reached his car given the amount of time that had elapsed (one minute 24 seconds), Zimmerman claims it was too dark for him to walk back towards his car without light. The officer then reminds him that he had just walked through the darkness.
Oh yeah… It was raining, so George wants the officers to believe he was just standing there in the dark in the rain. Isn’t that also why George Zimmerman said he found Trayvon Martin suspicious in the first place?!
Exactly. In addition, Z. Had already confirmed with tthe detectives that he had left theheadlights on in his SUV, and that they were projecting light onto at least a portion of the T junction. so he could easily have “walked to the light”. (funny expression in view of the circumstances!)
BOING! Good point.
The rain was significantly lessening by then.
@Sadanie –
Yeah… George claimed AFTER the officers mentioned the flashlight that he was afraid to walk in the dark after his flashlight was mush.
@Jimtrex –
So you agree with DeeDee that by the time of the confrontation, the rain was not a significant issue?
CSFC,
It was still dripping a little bit.
Susan said:
“I wonder if the “onlooker” referred to hear is witness “John,” who reported stating during the fight that he was calling 911? If so, then either Zimmerman is completely wrong about events, or John apparently only stated he was calling 9-1-1 after Trayvon was already dead.”
He might be talking about witness 13. Witness 13 is the one who approached Zimmerman as Zimmerman had walked up towards the T after killing Trayvon Martin. Witness 13 asked Zimmerman if he needed him to call 9-1-1, but Zimmerman told him he already had the cops on the way and asked him to call his wife instead. Witness 13 is also the neighbor that took the picture of Zimmerman’s head with his cell phone.
There are 4 other witnesses who saw John.
I meant to post the link to witness 13’s statements. He did not call 9-1-1, btw.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
@jimtrex –
John, Jon and Jonathan are pretty common names.
You are correct on witness 13. Also, in his reenactment, GZ says, ” No don’t call 911 help me restrain this guy. Witness 13 never said that in his written or audio. Basically all he said was he seem a little out of breath , look like he got his butt beat and told him to call his wife and tell her I shot someone, like nothing happened. You are correct again on the pics. He took three, back of head, Tm dead body showing head and leg postions, flashlight. He took photos before CSI got there. He emailed the pics right then to the investigator from FDLE that was questioning him on March 20.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
@Loree –
“You are correct on witness 13. Also, in his reenactment, GZ says, ” No don’t call 911 help me restrain this guy. Witness 13 never said that in his written or audio. Basically all he said was he seem a little out of breath , look like he got his butt beat and told him to call his wife and tell her I shot someone, like nothing happened. You are correct again on the pics. He took three, back of head, Tm dead body showing head and leg postions, flashlight. He took photos before CSI got there. He emailed the pics right then to the investigator from FDLE that was questioning him on March 20.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/”
Thank you, Loree. I see you are following this case as closely as I am. Yes, Witness 13 (I think his name is some variation of John for some reason) took 3 pictures. The one of the head splashed in the news on the day of Zimmerman’s bond hearing and the other two he revealed to FDLE during one of his interviews that he emailed directly to them during the interview.
Two other points you made me think of… Neither Witness #6 (John) nor Witness #13 (Jon, I think is his name) were ever requested by Zimmerman to help him restrain anybody. Zimmerman pulled that rabbit out of his arse!
CSFC
Witness #13 showed all 3 pictures and emailed them to the FDLE on March 20.
ABC did not say how they obtained the picture of Zimmerman’s head on the day of the bail hearing. Likely someone who doesn’t like BDLR or Miss Corey;
Officer Mike Wagner.
In the interview that was conducted for the stress test, George Zimmerman says that he observed Trayvon Martin looking _at_ houses. In the written statement, George Zimmerman says Trayvon Martin was looking _into_ houses. I find that to be a major inconsistency, an embellishment if you will.
That stress test only posed nine questions. The only two questions that was supposed to spark any response would of been, Did you confront the guy? If he believes in his mind that he didn’t it is not going to show up. But for most of us we believe that he did. Witness 9 stated that he can be confrontaional. I took that to mean if you do certain things to a person they are going to react. Such as following in a car then on foot. I would turn around and say hey what is your deal? Why are you following me? If I see you reach for your pocket or something else I am going to react as well. Maybe hit before getting hit. I am not saying at all that is what happen but I can see that it could of happen. Other question was Did you fear for your life? Again in GZ mind that might be true. But what is reasonable fear? What I perceive to be fear may not be to others. I would of made a better list of questions. Its just like some of the posters here. No matter how much you try and give a post about evidence and reasonable arguement that GZ was in the wrong they come up with crazy scenarios that they truly believe is the gospel. They would all pass a VST!
Loree (and Susan),
Do you think that anonymous phone calls who claim that “it’s in his blood” will be admissible in court?
@Loree –
The question I’m referring to in particular refers to looking AT houses versus looking into houses. This is, imo, major.
I got that. I was just rattling on abut the questions were limited imo.
Absolutely, Common sense!
But with this case, it seems that brand new definitions to common terms have been created:
A mild capillary bleeding of the nose and a small scratch now are defined as :broken nose
A 1″ superficial cut and a small abrasion with very moderate bleeding on one’s scalp is now :a , repeated smashing of one’s head on concrete, with a great chance of leading to permanent brain damage or death!
Casual, leisurely walking in the rain and looking around now means looking IN windows in order to commit some burglary or worse!
A screw driver is now a “burglary tool!”
And a TRACE of weed in a plastic bag makes one a drug addict, or . .worse. . .a drug dealer!
A fist fight has now been determined by some to deserve immediate capital punishment and death to one of the participant.
It is sickening!
Excellant Sadanie. There is good reason why he is named Common Sense!
@Sadanie –
If Susan had a button for rating best post of the day, I’d be clicking it for this comment even though I can’t stand rating systems!
These new propagandized “norms” and definitions are sickening. Makes me think only of civilization set-backs when I think about how ridiculous the logic and arguments have devolved.
———————————-
“But with this case, it seems that brand new definitions to common terms have been created:
A mild capillary bleeding of the nose and a small scratch now are defined as :broken nose
A 1″ superficial cut and a small abrasion with very moderate bleeding on one’s scalp is now :a , repeated smashing of one’s head on concrete, with a great chance of leading to permanent brain damage or death!
Casual, leisurely walking in the rain and looking around now means looking IN windows in order to commit some burglary or worse!
A screw driver is now a “burglary tool!”
And a TRACE of weed in a plastic bag makes one a drug addict, or . .worse. . .a drug dealer!
A fist fight has now been determined by some to deserve immediate capital punishment and death to one of the participant.
It is sickening!”
Thanks, Common sense. I guess i am just frustrated with the “word game” some people play.
In Zimmerman’s conversation with the dispatcher, he said Trayvon was “running”, and that Trayvon “ran”. But in all of his interviews later (that I’ve seen/heard so far), he never describes Trayvon as “running”, or says Trayvon “ran”.
From the dispatcher tape, it sounds like Zimmerman was running too as he followed Trayvon, and yet Zimmerman never mentions this during police interviews either. It seems to me that there was a distinct REASON why the dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he were “following” Trayvon. The distinct REASON is that we (and the dispatcher) can hear Zimmerman huffing and puffing over the phone. There doesn’t seem to be any other reason for the dispatcher to ask that question. There was nothing in the conversation up to that point that even informed the dispatcher that Zimmerman had left his vehicle.
It appears that Zimmerman was trying to avoid letting the police know that Trayvon was running away and that Zimmerman may have been running after Trayvon.
Zimmerman also appears to give another definition for the word “following” during the police interview walk-through when he says something to the effect that he meant he had gone in the same direction as Trayvon to look for a street address.
@hapufern –
Zimmerman states clearly that Trayvon is running and later that “he ran” on his original call to dispatch. Yes, as you say, Zimmerman affirms that he’s following Trayvon afterwards and the tip-off was that Zimmerman was huffing and puffing and his vehicle’s door chimes could be heard indicating his door had opened and then shut just prior to the huffing and puffing.
Also, Zimmerman said he fell to the ground when Trayvon punched him the first time (1st audio tape). In fact he clarified that to the lady interviewer when she asked him if he were still standing. He said, “As soon as he punched me, I fell backward onto the grass, and then he started wailing on my head”. How then did Trayvon end up where he did when he was shot?
Zimmerman seems to be having a little problem with this same scenario during his walk through with police when they asked him to show them just where he was. He tells them the same story about falling as soon as Trayvon punched him. He also says Trayvon got on top of him when he fell. But when the investigator asked him just where this all took place, Zimmerman then moves south a little ways and says something to the effect of trying to keep Trayvon off of him as he moved in that direction. He contradicts his own story within a minute of telling it.
And if Zimmerman were able to stay on his feet after being punched, why would he move in that direction – away from his vehicle?
Exactly! On top of that, you could see his moment of epiphany when he starts telling that a neighbor came out *as he was screaming for help*. At that moment, he looks at the two end townhomes and realizes that’s NOT where he was, that’s not where the fight was and from that moment forward, he realizes that he’s toast based on that story that he’s already told in previously-recorded statements to the police.
Obviously, both Zimmerman and Trayvon deliberately moved south between the rows, and this is something Zimmerman seems to be avoiding in his interviews with police.
I wonder about Zimmerman claiming to have left his headlights on. No one seems to have mentioned in the police report about a vehicle there with its headlights on. And didn’t Shellie come and get the vehicle before police were even aware that it was there? Wouldn’t they have noticed a vehicle with its headlights on?
Never mind on that one. On February 29, Part 1, Zimmerman said the lights only stay on for a while and then automatically shut off. He said he shut the truck off and took the keys with him.
This tape is also where Zimmerman finally says Trayvon “ran”. This was after the investigator informed him at the beginning of the tape that he’d heard the dispatcher’s tape, and after the female investigator specifically asks him, “Did you say he ran?”
Zimmerman still says that he (Zimmerman) was only walking. This is where he also says his truck lights stayed on.
Zimmerman says he never told Trayvon he was Neighborhood Watch because he didn’t want to confront him. The investigator then reminded Zimmerman that he’d had TWO opportunities to identify himself to Trayvon.
The headlights shut off automatically after a pre-programmed time. Most recent cars do this (I think). I know mine does.
Interesting. On the second audio tape, Zimmerman says this dispatcher asked, “Arey you following him?” Zimmerman said he replied “I don’t know. I don’t know where he went.”
Oh what a tangled web we weave.
Unitron,
I don’t think there is any visible evidence of Martin in the clubhouse surveillance videos.
The mailboxes are in the center of the roofed covering in an octagon shape. You walk around the outside to get your mailbox, facing inward. You can see down one side of the mailbox area in the videos and no Trayvon. There are much better more sheltered areas that are in camera view, and no Trayvon.
If he walks south of the pool area it is around 100 feet from the camera and outside the area the cameras cover, in addition one of the pool angles is either out of focus or covered in condensation.
I wasn’t the one claiming that he was there.
If you scroll back up you’ll find where CommonSenseForChange posted a link to a Google cache of something that for some reason has disappeard from the Daily Kos site which not only has some of the videos but points out at what times in them you can see what very well may have been Zimmmerman with his not yet malfunctioning flashlight going around the building and looking in various glass doors and windows.
If it was someone else (other than Martin, who apparently didn’t have a flashlight), they were there at a time when they could have seen Martin or Zimmerman or both and need to be tracked down, unless Corey’s saving them as a surprise witness.
Of course I suppose that, as the master thief and all around criminal genius he’s supposed to have been, it could have been Martin with a flashlight which Zimmerman took away from him, and that would explain him attacking Zimmerman later.
But what did George do with Trayvon’s back-up screwdriver?
Was that what he was frisking the corpse for?
unitron
Susan,
The only witnesses who clearly heard loud voices before the fighting, reported that it was either at the T or even to the west. They had their patio door open and their living area (TV) is closer to the back than most units. They also have recorded proof that they actually heard something.
The only other witness who reported hearing any sort of argument was a lady who lives north of the east-west sidewalk (she also claims that she had heard some sort of argument 10 minutes earlier).
John reported that the sound seemed to have initially been further away and then come towards where he lived and the body ended up. His patio door was closed, and his TV area is away from the patio door, so he could not determine direction.
You’re stuck with “DeeDee” who never reports the direction of the chase, other than Martin said he was immediately adjacent to where he was staying after he had run and lost Zimmerman.
@jimtrex –
How do you know where the witnesses live? I’m pretty sure Witness #18’s address is disputed. Like you, I also read jeralyn’s analysis of the loud noises, etc., but I don’t think her analysis is correct or know where she got that information. Do you know where it came from? Have witness addresses been release?
Unitron,
“I wasn’t the one claiming that he was there.”
I wasn’t claiming that you were claiming that he was there. I think it was you who had asked Peter O what evidence there was.of Martin being in the clubhouse videos.
I wrote:
“I don’t think there is any visible evidence of Martin in the clubhouse surveillance videos.”
I tend to focus on content, rather than motivation. My statement means : “I don’t think there is any visible evidence of Martin in the clubhouse surveillance videos.”, not “You’re wrong Unitron for suggesting that there is (or isn’t) evidence of Martin in the videos.”
There are a lot of shadows in the videos. I can show where Martin is calmly sitting in the clubhouse smoking, you can even see the smoke. He continues to do this even after he is dead.
The clubhouse videos have a really low frame rate (40 frames per minute). At that rate, a car traveling the 15 mph speed limit moves 33 feet per frame. If you happen to get a glint of a headlight off a window it is luck. There is one such shot where the headlight reflects off a door, The KOS video says one glint of light off a door is an image of Zimmerman. But that would require Zimmerman to be playing with the flashlight to light up his face. But just before this in another camera is an image of a car (a lucky shot with the right timing and lighting). A couple of seconds later its headlight is in the perfect position to be reflected off a window into the camera.
You can see some evidence of headlights, probably reflected off of uneven road surfaces. And sometimes streetlights get blocked. One window has a light on the eaves outside the building, which casts a shadow of the window frame on the floor, There may be some refraction towards the camera, depending on how clean the window is. But direct light into the camera is from a different angle. If a whole window suddenly changes color, the object would have to be larger than the window (since it is further from the camera). Even 21 YO Zimmerman isn’t that big.
You can get an idea of rain intensity, particularly if you play the pool videos at high speed. In the east pool video a drop hits the front of the camera, either the lens or maybe a plastic cover somewhere around 11+ minutes. Some of the lounge chairs are suddenly blurred and only gradually recover – evaporation? Alternatively, it was a sneaky way to redact the residents who were skinny dipping. In addition, you can see some lights from buildings south of the detention pond reflected on the pond. During the most intense rain, these reflections dim, either because of roiling of the pond surface or the rain dispersing the direct light.
You can also see the lights from the emergeny equipment as they arrive in the last part of the video.
There may be a limited amount of evidence. And perhaps if one used some image processing software that could detect dark gray hoodies on a black background in an unlit view, Martin could be seen.
And they are evidence of some places Martin wasn’t, which provided greater protection from the rain and were in close proximity to the mailboxes. He could have walked back and forth or even sat down on the cement as he talked on the phone.
Skinny dipping on a rainy night in February?
(and I thought I was kinky)
“I can show where Martin is calmly sitting in the clubhouse smoking, you can even see the smoke. He continues to do this *even after he is dead*.”
(and I thought I was a nicotine junky)
“…And they are evidence of some places Martin wasn’t…”
(Yesterday upon the stair, I met a man who wasn’t there. He wasn’t there again today. Oh, how I wish he’d go away : – )
Let’s all agree to blame WordPress for us not being able to keep track of who is answering whom about what.
While still acknowledging that I am always right.
: – )
unitron
CSFC,
You can tell where #11 and #20 live from their interviews. The location of #6 and #7 has been identified by TV.
#12 and #13 are pretty likely based on their interview.
#3 is likely based on the time of her call and where T Smith was dispatched to.
#18 said that she was 10 feet from where the arrest was happening. It is actually 25 feet from the back of the north-facing units but she might not have been a math or science teacher. The units north of the sidewalk are on a small bluff (4 or 5 feet maybe) which may give a better view. I don’t know which unit she was in, but listen to her 911 call, and ignore her hysteria.
Susan, here is my best current explanation of all:
1. about 6:30 Martin leaves the 7-11 store. The Complex is about .8 mile away and he arrives there in about 15-20 minutes.
2. Martin enters the complex and ends up at the pool, where he hangs out for 10-15 minutes (see pool surveillance tape).
3. Martin leaves the pool area and at just before 7:09 is spotted by Zimmerman, who was driving to the store. He was spotted at 1440 Retreat View Circle (the address is from the Zimmerman walk through video while in police car). That address is West of the clubhouse and pool so Martin, after leaving the pool, had gone somewhere in the opposite direction from home and ended up at that address. Zimmerman said there had been a recent break-in near or at that address.
4. Zimmerman then continues towards the clubhouse and parks at club house before Martin reaches that point. Martin is now heading east towards ‘home.”
5. Zimmerman calls the dispatcher from the clubhouse after parking and keeps watching as martin passes him and continues in the ‘home’ direction.
THIS IS AN IMPORTANT POINT WHEN THE DISPATCHER CALL BEGINS BECAUSE OF THE TIME FROM THE START UNTIL MARTIN RUNS IS ABOUT 2 MINUTES ON THE TAPE. THIS MEANS THAT MARTIN COULD HAVE COVERED, WALKING, A DISTANCE OF ABOUT 180-250 YARDS. AS WILL BE SEEN BELOW, THAT DISTANCE COOINCIDES WELL WITH ZIMMERMAN’S NARRATIVE ON THE VIDEO AND THE DISPATCHER TAPE. SO LOOK CLOSELY AT THE FOLLOWING:
6. Zimmerman, in the video, then says Martin walked past his car (still headed ‘home’ (East)) and says the dispatcher asked “where did he go what direction did he go. I don’t know. I parked right about where that sign is [the final place the car ended up].” While he is saying this, the police car is moving and Zimmerman is pointing to the second place he parked.
The above sentences run together. Most importantly, for a few seconds, Zimmerman would have lost sight of Martin after he passed his car because pulled into the club house parking area and the adjacent trees would also block off the direction Martin had gone after passing his car. It seems clear Zimmerman didn’t say “I don’t know” to the dispatcher at that time but it had to have been on his mind since he had lost sight of Martin after he passed the club house parking area. This is a minor, innocuous, discrepancy. Also from the way the sentences run together he could have been remembering what happened a few seconds later after the dispatcher twice asked him for the actions of the suspect before he exited his car or even part of after he had already moved the car. He just jumbled the memories somewhat
To make anything of the above is unfair. Zimmerman knew there was a tape recording of the call. The video can easily be viewed as, in large part, supporting the tape. If someone wants to view it otherwise, any minor error in timing is an innocuous and an understandable mistake. It is just Zimmerman’s imperfect method of narrative and imperfect memory after a time of great stress.
7. Zimmerman then says Martin walked down the West-East path (“cut-off”) to about the intersection with the North South path and then Martin turned back and started walking toward where Zimmerman had finally parked, circled the car and then walked back to the path intersection. This is consistent with the tape where Zimmerman says Martin is coming towards him — at about 1:24 in the tape, indicating the distance measurements of Martin’s walking to the path intersection and back again fit well.
Critics say Zimmerman should have said Martin “circled” the car but he didn’t use those words. But they forget that Zimmerman described Martin walking to the car, in lock step with the tape, so the “circling” could easily have been omitted in talking to the dispatcher. Also, it is clear that if Martin approached the car he then had to turn back somehow, so “circling” would be a real possibility particularly since Martin was showing no fear of Zimmerman in his car and was boldly approaching him after turning back from the path intersection.
9. Zimmerman says that Martin, after circling, went back to the path intersection and then ran South down the North-South path. That is the point that coincides with the tape where Zimmerman says “he’s running.” There is enough time on the tape from when Zimmerman says Martin was coming towards him and then circled the car and headed back to the intersection to coincide with the part where “he’s running.”
10. To jump back, when Martin is heading back to the path intersection after circling, Zimmerman is descibing on the tape directions how to get to where he is. This is just before Martin starts running and Zimmerman exits the car. Later in the dispatcher tape Zimmerman is asked the address where he is parked but he doesn’t know it. In the video Zimmerman describes how he was giving directions to the dispatcher while in the car and that part is consistent with the tape. The only discrepancy is that in the video Zimmerman remembered getting out of the car to look for a street sign; in his written statement he seems to indicate he also was looking to see where the suspect had gone; and in the dispatcher tape it seems he was trying to see where the suspect had gone — but, in the back of his mind, may have still interested in an exact “address” because that is what he was discussing just before Martin ran. A little further in the dispatcher tape, Zimmerman is asked where he was parked, and he says does not know the address and they then discuss how to meet which ends with Zimmerman saying to call him — which is consistent with him trying to find an “address” to tell the police when they arrive.
Looking at all three sources, it seems clear that after Zimmerman exited the car, the dispatcher said there was no need to follow the suspect and Zimmerman responded ‘OK,’ Zimmerman then became focused only on getting an “address” to give to the dispatcher so he could meet the arriving police. An important point is that in both the dispatcher tape and the video, Zimmerman is asked for an address and says he doesn’t know it which explains his efforts were directed to only geting an address after he had left the car and the dispatcher had suggested he not following the fleeing suspect.
I cannot see how any of the above minor discrepancies can prove Zimmerman is a ‘liar.” If he is a liar then every witness in this case is a liar. Zimmerman got a B+ grade on his memory about those events, particularly since he knew the dispatcher tape was recorded.
11. Zimmerman, in the video, then descibes how he went down the East-West path and later when returning to his car, was attacked right near the path intersection.
12. Critics say: What about the missing time? And they imply that during that missing time some nefarious goal was accomplished. That time would be the about 3 1/2 minutes from after Zimmerman left the truck until the fight. Basically, we already know from the dispatcher tape what Zimmerman was doing up until the hangup which was about 60-90 seconds before the fight. He was just talking to the dispatcher trying to arrange a meeting place and Zimmerman appears to have been walking along the East-West path to try to see an address, which he says in his video.
Remember, Zimmerman isn’t a shark — he doesn’t have to be moving constantly. He was just both milling around waiting for the police interspersed with some looking for an address while talking on the phone. What is nefarious about that? Because Zimmerman is trying to relate the important parts in his statements and narratives he simply compressed his “milling around” time while waiting for the police. The dispatcher tape itself is his proof during that time period.
You keep mentioning this alleged surveillance footage of Trayvon at the pool, but I have yet to see any indication that it exists.
PeterO, get a screencap of this, or a link to the video to a precise frame where it can be seen.
One correction: The pool scene. Here is the link:
Originally, I thought it looked like someone sitting in the upper left corner but that may not be correct (it likely it is not correct). However nothing else in the analysis changes. Zimmerman said he first saw Martin at 1440 Retreat View Circle which would have been just before calling the dispatcher at about 7:09..
The only open question is where Martin was in the almost 40 minutes after leaving the 7-11 until spotted at that address since the distance is only about .8 mile and have taken less than 20 minutes walking. He had to be someplace during that time.
One interesting thing that I didn’t include above is that the above address is WEST of the clubhouse and far from any “mail sheds.” So how did DeeDee come up with Martin staying at the “mail shed?” And if true, how did Martin then end up West of the mailboxes, away from the direction home? Hopefully someone can spot Martin on a surveillance video to pin this issue down.
So how far into that 45 minute video (which has no timestamp to indicate when on the clock it started or finished) did you see, or thought you saw, somebody sitting there?
It doesn’t have to be to the second, just give me an approximate idea.
First 5 minutes? Right near the end? Somewhere around the middle?
Anything so I can look at the part where you thought you saw something without having to sit here and stare at the screen for 3/4 of an hour.
unitron
One other not so obvious point that gives enormous authenticity to Zimmerman’s walk though is the time element. There are about 2 minutes on the dispatcher tape from when the call starts until Martin runs. There are also other intervening ‘landmark’ points, such as Martin approaching the car. And, most importantly, consideration has to be given to Martin’s ‘walking’ speed to see how much distance he probably traveled within those time periods.
I find it impossible to believe that Zimmerman would be capable, in such a short period of time, if ever, of fictionalizing his narrative to fit the landmark times on the tape so well. Look at how many theories, in this blog and others, pay little attention to the critical, related dimensions of time and distance. Until I saw the walk through, I never considered that walking the distance from the “mail shed” to where Martin probably ran from, could not possibly take 2 full minutes — the distances are too short. I did look closely at time ranges and distances in many other matters, to explain events, but not in this key one. Everyone seems surprised at the walk through. Yet, if fits so neatly the time landmarks in the dispatcher tape when you factor in normal walking speeds.
I do not see how it is possible for Zimmerman to have fictionalized the basics of his walk-through until the attack. He was relating what he remembered happened to the best of his ability and because it was truthful the time matching took care of itself.
Let’s see:
Here are some of the specific inconsistencies and untruths I can think of off-hand. I’ll update this list as I remember more:
– After Zimmerman shot Trayvon, he says he pulled Trayvon’s hands away because he thought Trayvon had something “in his hands.” Even though Trayvon had just allegedly used his hands to smother Zimmerman. This does not make sense.
-Zimmerman says he spread out Trayvon’s hands, when the first officer on the scene found Trayvon’s hands underneath his body.
– Zimmerman says the first punch knocked him on the ground, but Zimmerman ended up shooting Trayvon at least 20 ft away from where Zimmerman says the first hit happened.
– Zimmerman says he got out of his car because the police dispatch had asked for his address. In the police phone call, however, Zimmerman admits he got out to follow Trayvon.
– Not knowing the name of the street that you have to turn on to enter the neighborhood. When there are only three streets in the neighborhood. When he’s lived there three years. And claims to know “all” of his neighbors on sight. I can’t get over this lie, it’s the most ridiculous of them all.
– Why did Zimmerman have his windows rolled down…. when it was raining?
– Zimmerman claiming Trayvon used his hands to cover Zimmerman’s mouth and nose. When DNA results show no trace of Zimmerman’s DNA on Trayvon’s hands. Zimmerman’s nose was bleeding, there would have been a DNA transfer.
Unitron, it’s not a person. Upper left corner, two pool chairs and a weird shadow. First time I looked at it, the pseudo-figure jumped out at me too, but it’s just a trick of the light.
Until someone gives me a narrower time frame than somewhere in that 45 minute video, I ain’t botherin’ to find out.
(and don’t capitalize me, it tickles)
(You wouldn’t treat e.e.cummings that way, would you?)
unitron
I don’t blame you. I also tried to watched that boring video. . .NOTHING! Just still pictures. . with NO ONE, not even a cat going by!
I tried speeding it up to 3 minutes, then 7 minutes, then 15 minutes. . .still nothing!
I think either someone sees ghosts, or is expressing “wishful thinking!”
Just another “pie in the sky” from our resident fairy tale spinner!
I don’t mind looking to see if I see the ghost, just give me a clue as to when he makes his appearence instead expecting me to sit through the whole 45 minutes.
I’ve asked several times about the time and never gotten a straight answer.
unitron
Sorry you’re getting frustrated. . .but it’s not my fault!
Actually, I only looked at that “video” today also, and I DIDN’T SEE ANYTHING, BUT A FEW LOUNGE CHAIRS . . .not EVEN a ghost!
So I can’t help you! Maybe Peter has x-ray vision?
But apparently no way to measure the passage of time.
____________________________________________
When I said “just give me a clue”, I was speaking rhetorically, not aiming directly at you. I know there’s no way for you to tell me what time it was that you didn’t see what you couldn’t see.
Apologies for catching you in the crossfire.
unitron
Susan, a few responses:
“- Zimmerman says the first punch knocked him on the ground, but Zimmerman ended up shooting Trayvon at least 20 ft away from where Zimmerman says the first hit happened.”
***in the video I saw, Zimmerman was unsure of the exact spot of the attack only that it was right near the intersecting path. He said that when hit he at first staggered and then fell, which would explain some movement. The expert witnesses will do more than you or I can do on this.with our limited information.
“- Zimmerman says he got out of his car because the police dispatch had asked for his address. In the police phone call, however, Zimmerman admits he got out to follow Trayvon.”
***I explained that in ¶10 (with its following 2 ¶¶). In short, he was, in effect, doing both within a short time period of time. In his written statement, made on the night of the incident, he says: “I was out of my vehicle looking for a street sign & THE DIRECTION THE SUSPECT WAS” (the last word is not too legible). After the dispatcher warned him of a danger in following a fleeing suspect, Zimmerman said ‘OK’ and focused exclusively on finding an address or street sign while continuing to make arrangements with the dispatcher. Unless we believe in time-travel for alibi purposes, the reality is that on the dispatcher tape Zimmerman is asked for the address he is parked at and Zimmerman says he doesn’t know it. And in the video and statement he says he was an address or sign (he uses the two terms interchangeably). Call him dumb for not knowning the name of a street he normally may not go down, but that’s all.
“- Why did Zimmerman have his windows rolled down…. when it was raining?”
***depends on how hard it was raining and how low the window was rolled down. Maybe it was stuffy in the car and he didn’t like the fan. Who knows? Doesn’t make him a murderer.
“- Zimmerman claiming Trayvon used his hands to cover Zimmerman’s mouth and nose. When DNA results show no trace of Zimmerman’s DNA on Trayvon’s hands. Zimmerman’s nose was bleeding, there would have been a DNA transfer.”
***Was his nose bleeding? It didn’t look like that from the pictures. He had a broken nose that was not necessarily bleeding. The bleeding was on the back of his head from the photos. We know they were fighting and if the fighting was a wrestling type fight that would entail MORE DNA transfer not less than if striking occurred. Let the expert witnesses work it out.
The reality is that inconsistencies in the fight movements help not hurt Zimmerman. This is because he claims he was being knocked senseless before he fired in self-defense. No one would remember precise details during such a life and death struggle and mental trauma.
It is already incredible that Zimmerman, the “neighborhood watch captain,” and resident of that relatively small, and very well planned community with only THREE street sign wouldn’t know ONE of the three streets’ name!
But. . .maybe he was looking for a number? Then why not look at the very first townhouse on the RIGHT of the T junction path. . .where the FRONT of the house (where the house numbers are clearly displayed) is FACING his truck? Instead. .in the walktrough, Zimmerman explained that the row of townhouse to the LEFT of the path do not have numbers because it is the BACK of that row of house.
So. . .explain to me why it makes sense that, to find the name of the street he “doesn’t remember,” he decides to LEAVE that street, and walk to the opposite side of the T junction, to the street that is parallel to the one he “doesn’t remember the name of,” and. . .is the street where ZIMMERMAN lives?
Don’t tell me that he didn’t remember the name of the street where he has lived for several years either? What do you think he was looking for at that end of the T junction that he couldn’t find much more easily (and more accurately) on the street where he parked his truck? A house number maybe?
But why would a house number on the street where HE LIVES be more informative that the house number on the street where his truck is parked. . .about 20 feet from that first townhouse facing him, with a house number facing him?
Simple: He didn’t care about an address, or a house number, or anything else. . . he only cared about “those A. . H. . .always getting away” and his determination that, this one at least, would NOT get away!
“Some” movement?
And yet Zimmerman got knocked out with one punch on the “T”…
unitron, I correct the part where I mentioned Martin was by the pool. See my post at: June 22, 2012 at 5:48 pm. I didn’t change my analysis as I explain in my post.
But I added that there is now a major conflict with DeeDee’s “mail shed” story because the address Zimmerman first said he saw Martin (1440 Retreat View Circle) was well WEST of the mailboxes (away from Brandy’s unit). How did he get there just before 7:09 pm if he was at the mail shed??? And from the mail shed he would have had to be going away from Brandy’s unit to be there.
“And yet Zimmerman got knocked out with one punch on the “T”…”
He said he was hit, he staggered and then fell, not that he was “knocked out.”
Yep! And I bet that’s where he hit his head and got those minor bruises in the back of his head. The severity (or rather, lack of it) of those “injuries” are very consistant with ONE fall. . .NOT AT ALL consistant with “repeated smashing on concrete!”
Here is the full video walk through. The one on Susan’s original link was edited by CNN.
As I said in my notes there are several inconsistencies from his statement and the dispatcher tape. But the question is if they help him. They don’t. Even in his written statement given the night of the shooting he says one of the reasons he got out of his car originally was to see where the suspect was after he had run. So he isn’t concealing that, initially, exited his car and followed to keep the suspect in sight. His detail variations are all innocuous and we have the tape itself to hear what he is basically doing, which is to communicate a way to hook up with the arriving police after he was advised to not follow a fleeing suspect. Remember, at that time he had no idea about what was to come to pass so the dispatcher tape is ‘pristine’ in that regard.
What is most striking, after sitting though the whole video, is looking at him and seeing someone struggling to remember details but not quite getting there and doing a little innocuous filling in. He is clearly suffering from some sort of PTSD or shock and very likely a Grade 1 or Grade 2 concussion. He, at times, seems to be disoriented, disorganized and/or confused at various points particularly in trying to remember and his attempts to be overly helpful may account for some filling in of ‘details’ in the video. And about the fight, no matter how “certain” he may sound in a few of his “details” it seems clear that he doesn’t remember too well due to darkness and his trauma. In short, he is about 75-85% accurate compared to the tape on details. But none of the differences seem designed to help him.
This makes the “landmark” points of his video walk through more reliable in the sense that he was always moving in the direction of the fight and has the major details correct. For example, his pulling into the club parking, his following and again parking his car the second time, his seeing Martin reach the intersecting paths before Martin doubles back and again goes back to the intersecting paths and runs, his general concern after being advised not to follow a fleeing suspect to try to be helpful and get an address for the police after he says he doesn’t know the address he is parked at. I also noticed he explained the reason he didn’t remember the street name was because he lived on Retreat View Circle and never went down the other street.
Some may not like it (or disagree strongly) but on balance, the tapes are a very good positive for Zimmerman. The question now is how are they admitted at trial?
You are kidding, right? The tapes are POSITIVE for Zimmerman?
Still delusional, I see!
By the way, how can a “neighborhood watch captain” NEVER go in two of the three streets he is supposed to “watch?
You really think that all the calls to 911 made by Zimmerman were ONLY about HIS street?
And if yes. . .why change his pattern than? Is it the FIRST time he sees a “suspect” walk beyond his street?
Yes, that statement and $1 will get you a soda!
PeterO, look at Trayvon’s body in that picture.
And then tell me again you believe Zimmerman “staggered” from the T, to where he shot Trayvon.
One punch, and he staggered and fell…. over two houses away?
Based on all available photos, it is clear Trayvon’s body was found perpendicular to the first white divider fence.
Here is a google map, with the google map scale, of where Trayvon was found. The red tick mark is directly halfway on the map scale.
Trayvon was found 40 feet from the T. No one gets punched and then “staggers” that far. It does not happen.
Zimmerman is lying. Or else so brain damaged he cannot remember that he clearly pursued Trayvon south down the path between the buildings. Take your pick.
Great information about the real distance from the T junction the body was found! It certainly is a meaningful discrepancy to be explained. . .if it can be explained!
Thanks for all the good information you provide. I really value this exchange of ideas.
Susan, the problem with the whole fight issue is that both the witnesses and Zimmerman describe a fight that ‘moved’ as it progressed for the 1 or so minutes it lasted. At this point trying to piece it all together is a lesson in frustration given we do not have all witness statements and photos. At trial, both sides will have perfectly logical explanations as to what happened … of that we can be sure.
As for Zimmerman, he is clearly confused in the video and says he did not remember the details very well.
It was nighttime. He was getting his head bashed in and was more concerned with surviving then memorizing details, and he was likely, at least partially disoriented. Having your head slammed into a concrete sidewalk tends to do that.
Except Zimmerman does not describe that.
Zimmerman says he was punched and went down. And then slided a little bit. he never provides an explanation for how he “slid” 40+ feet.
You clearly could make a better and more believable story up than Zimmerman could. But that was not his story.
My take: Zimmerman was trying to hide the fact he pursued Zimmerman south down the sidewalk between the houses, which is where the fight occurred. Zimmerman realized that the fact he pursued Trayvon south would make it look like he was chasing his victim.
But rather than make up a story for why he had to run south, Zimmerman decided to make up a story for why he had to run west, to Retreat View Circle. He just did not realize how the actual evidence did not in fact support this claim.
Susan, one further point on the fight issue:
If Zimmerman was really calculating the way to do it is to simply to follow the path of the fight in the same way you and others believe he knows it really happened.
He could just change details, but keep the same movements of the fight if he really remembered exactly what happened. For example, he could pick the same spot where he hit Martin first (correction, Martin had no marks on him, I meant ‘grabbed’ Martin) and just reverse the action and say Martin hit him instead at that place. We know they were on the ground, so he could simply say the punch is what got him to the ground instead of him forcing Martin to the ground.
I hope you see what I am driving at, which is that it would be so easy for someone as purportedly calculating as Zimmerman to simply follow the physical movements of the fight closely and just change the key details.
All I see in the videos is a confused person who suffered some sort of head trauma and who is struggling to be helpful by trying to recall details he may never ever remember correctly.
This is from the second half of my timeline, he is describing it as he is walking south on the walkway, according to the video Martin was attacking and Zimmerman was blocking while moving south until Martin got on top of him. He thought it was behind the black door, it was actually 25ft further south of there behind the next door. He wasn’t talking about a punch taking him down.
@10:55 “I think I was trying to push him away from me (Zimmerman is moving south as he says this), and he got on top of me somewhere around here ” (This gives us three reference points to determine location from on the video Halfway between the tree and the white water access cover in front of the Black Screen Door. According to where it appears on the Fox Orlando video it is appx 25ft further down the sidewalk. From the time the confrontation occurred to him being put into the police car I am not sure he would have known exactly how far along the path he was, I doubt he was lying, he was paying more attention to Martin no matter how the fight started. )
So. . .if Trayvon “attacked” Zimmerman from the South, as Zimmerman was heading WEST on the path to his car (parked about 20 feet away from where he got attacked), Why would he totally change direction, and try to push Trayvon away heading SOUTH rather than heading WEST toward the safety of his car?
“But rather than make up a story for why he had to run south”
*** But all he has to do is say he walked south about 20-30 feet to see if there were any number signs and then turned to go back at which point he was attacked.
But here is my real problem:
1. Under Zimmerman’s walk through, Martin ran from the T at about 2 minutes into the dispatcher tape. This implies he reached Brandy’s unit within 10-12 seconds. DeeDee said after running he was at Brandy’s unit. Yet he came back. Why?
2. Lets start with your theory that he was chasing Martin and caught him 40 feet down the path (40 feet is not a long distance). So we now presume Zimmerman could outrun Martin; could control Martin (how?) without putting a mark on Martin but himself suffering a broken nose, two black eyes etc. etc. And where did the chase start at? How did the chaser and chasee get in the original positions where it is postulated the chase started from to end up where the body was? All of this had to happen within 60-90 seconds of the dispatcher hangup so didn’t it take time for the chaser and chasee to first see each other and then end up somewhere north of the body for the chase to begin?
It just too difficult to come up with a walk through that explains things in that way, particularly where the standard is reasonable doubt.
Peter, could you PLEASE THINK before you write?
THERE ARE NO NUMBERS ON THE BACK SIDE OF ANY HOUSE!
And, Zimmerman was not quite dumb enough to try that stupid lie. . .that is so easy to verify!
He didn’t want to say he went after Trayvon at all. . .and obviously if he walked south from the T junction. . .he would have been admitting that he was lying when he said he was returning to his car!
Even the . . .sliding further South while struggling with Trayvon is a stretch. . .as if he was REALLY heading to his car and had just passed the junction of the walkway and the T junction path when Trayvon (reportedly) “attacked” him, why would he have try to escape or avoid Trayvon’s attack by heading SOUTH, when his truck was only about 20 feet away to the WEST?
My mother used to say (in French, but I’ll translate): “Always turn your tongue 7 times in your mouth before you speak!,” obviously to train me to take the time to think about what I was ready to blurt out. I still OFTEN remember to do that!
You should try it sometime!
Susan,
It’s 45 feet.
The skepticism about GZ’s walk through where he says he was first attacked turns out to be ill-founded.
The crime scene photos show GZ’s keychain/flashlight were found right by the T intersection of the paths which confirms that was where he was first attacked. So that part of his walk through looks correct despite some skepticism by commentors.
Susan said: “Trayvon was found 40 feet from the T. No one gets punched and then “staggers” that far. It does not happen.
Zimmerman is lying. Or else so brain damaged he cannot remember that he clearly pursued Trayvon south down the path between the buildings. Take your pick.”
***Because GZ’s keychain/flashlight was found right by the T (see previous post) it makes no sense to say GZ was chasing Martin from that point and caught him 40 feet further South since there would no reason to drop the keychain at the T in that scenario.
GZ Dropping the keychain/flashlight near the T confirms his story that that was where he was attacked. Since he was headed back to his car it is likely he had his keychain/flashlight in his hand and dropped it when Martin struck him.
The important fact is that GZ’s keychain/flashlight was near the T, confirming his walk through that was were he was attacked.
Susan,
The 911 call with the most screams was from the end unit on the north. They have a screened patio, so their patio door was open. There are blinds over the patio screens, plus multiple locks, so while they can hear easily, they can’t see. Moreover, their living area (ie TV) is near the back of their townhome (in the middle units, it is a kitchen and dining area).
They heard an exchange of perhaps 3 voices, and then scuffling and maybe 3 grunts like HUH, HUH, HUH (grunt is my impression of the sound they make in their 911 calls), which turned into helps, and then the gunshot. In their first interview they say they heard their next door neighbor John call out.
They said the initial sounds came from further north, perhaps even on the side of their house, and then moved south. The calls for help moved south.
You’re not going to be able to convince a jury that Zimmerman chased Martin to the south, or that the initial verbal encounter did not happen just to the west of the T.
“Susan, The 911 call with the most screams was from the end unit on the north.”
1211 Twin Trees, or the one behind it on the east leg of Retreat View?
Or one of the units in that north facing row on the north leg of RVC?
unitron
Sadanie,
Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch coordinator – as he said in his first interview with Serino.
Jim, you are missing the point. One of the following two claims must be false:
(a) The fight started at the T-junction; or
(b) Zimmerman was knocked to the ground with a single punch.
Which one of these is true? Zimmerman wants it both ways.
Unitron,
“Susan, The 911 call with the most screams was from the end unit on the north.”
“1211 Twin Trees, or the one behind it on the east leg of Retreat View?”
“Or one of the units in that north facing row on the north leg of RVC?”
1211 Twin Trees. They explain that they have a screened porch, and that the encounter may have even started on the left side of their unit (looking towards the back). They also referred to John as their next-door-neighbor, who they heard yell out to stop. They definitely referred to their 911 call, and why they had called so soon.
The unit across from them (facing RVC) is probably the resident who came out with a flashlight before the police arrived. He was assembling furniture, but his wife peeked out and saw John, and then after the shot saw Zimmerman over the body. He also said he went out through the garage and came around, and said that he encountered Zimmerman near the T.
The hysterical 911 caller lives north of the north-south sidewalk based on her description of the arrest, which she said was 10 feet away (it is about 25 feet).
Key:
# = Unredacted 911 call http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw
@ = walkthrough video all comments ar mine unless in “” I do not have a transcript. If anyone can find a full transcript it would be appreciated. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFxKVEVU3kU&list=PL5B28DEA2850DE3E4&index=2&feature=plpp_video
() = My notes
All times are for reference to their source video so you can hear the words, not the clock time when the statement was made.
I have seen plenty of After Action Reports from Combat Missions, and this is about the accuracy I expect from someone that has never done one before.
—–
@ 0:11 Zimmerman gets in car at 1950 Retreat View (RV)
@ 0:55 Car stops at Susan’s Spot 1, 1440 RV
@ 2:15 Video shift to inside car with Zimmerman
@ 2:16 Zimmerman points to where he saw Martin Standing in front of 1460 RV
@ 2:26 Martin walking in grassy area by window between two poles in front of Black Car lesurley looking at house. Zimmerman states that there has been a history of break in in either building around Martin’s location.
@ 3:10 Zimmerman drives past him. Martin keeps staring at Zimmerman.
@ 3:23 Martin had stopped at Stop 1, looked around , Zimmerman said “I had never seen him before”
@ 3:59 Drove past him and parked at the clubhouse
@ 4:09 “Det: He caught up to you up here. GZ: Yes I called the non-emergency line and when I got through I parked at the clubhouse and they asked me you know where I was and I told them the Clubhouse and I think I gave them the address to the clubhouse.”
# 0:01 PD: Sanford Police Department. …
# 0:03 GZ: Hey we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
@ 4:30 He parked next to the clubhouse.
# 0:26 PD:OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
# 0:29 GZ: He looks black.
# 0:31 PD: Did you see what he was wearing?
# 0:32 GZ: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He’s [unintelligible] (sounds like “Here now”), he was just staring…
# 0:44 PD: OK, he’s just walking around the area…
# 0:45 GZ: …looking at all the houses.
# 0:47 PD: OK…
# 0:48 GZ: Now he’s just staring at me.
@ 4:44 Martin walked past Zimmerman in his car looking at his car
@ 4:56 Dispatcher said where did he go.
# 0:49 PD: OK—you said it’s 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
@ 5:01 Zimmerman lost sight of Martin as he turned south on twin trees. “They asked what direction did he go, I said I don’t know I can’t see him and they said can you get to somewhere where you can see him.”
# 0:54 GZ: That’s the clubhouse…
# 0:55 PD: That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the—he’s near the clubhouse right now?
@ 5:14 “I backed out, and I made this turn here, and a left here, and I parked right about where that sign is in that yard. Det: In front of that Ford Truck. And I saw him standing on the grass right about here (GZ indicates in the grass north of the infamous white truck) and I saw him walking back that way and then cut through the back behind the houses. And he looked back and he noticed me and he cut back through the houses. “
@ 6:05 “I was still on the phone with non-emergency ahmm and then he came back and he started walking up towards the grass and then came down and circled my car and I told the operator that he was circling my car and I couldn’t hear if he said anything.
@ 6:18 “But he had his hand in his wasteband and I think I told the operator that and they said where are you, and I could not remember the name of the street cause I don’t live on this street.”
# 0:58 GZ: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.
# 1:04 GZ: He’s got his hand in his waistband. And he’s a black male. (This is the first close look Zimmerman has of Martin’s face.)
# 1:11 PD: How old would you say he looks?
# 1:12 GZ: He’s got button on his shirt, late teens.
# 1:14 PD: Late teens ok.
# 1:15 PD:OK.
# 1:18 GZ: Something’s wrong with him. Yup, he’s coming to check me out, he’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what his deal is.
# 1:27 PD: Just let me know if he does anything ok
# 1:29 GZ: How long until you get an officer over here?
# 1:30 PD: Yeah we’ve got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.
# 1:36 GZ: Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.
@ 6:36 “I said I don’t know and he goes we need an address and I said I don’t know an address, and I think I gave them my address. “
@ 6:41 “and they said give us directions to get to you and I said if you tell the police to go straight at the clubhouse and make a left my truck will be there and again they asked me where he went and what direction he went in and I said I don’t know. And then I thought to get out and look for a street sign”
# 1:55 PD: So it’s on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
# 1:58 GZ: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh you go straight in, don’t turn, and make a left. Shit he’s running.
# 2:08 PD: He’s running? Which way is he running?
(# 2:10 This is where you hear Zimmerman open his door.)
@ 7:00 “So I got out of my car and I started walking. Det OK go ahead.”
@ 7:05 Zimmerman gets out of the Police Car and walks East
# 2:12 GZ: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
(# 2:15 this is where Zimmerman closes his door)
# 2:15 PD: Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards?
# 2:18 GZ: The back entrance…fucking [unintelligible]
# 2:23 PD: Are you following him?
# 2:25 GZ: Yeah
# 2:26 PD: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.
# 2:29 GZ: Ok
@ 8:58 (This is out of order due to him referring back while at the west end of the walkway) “Back there they said are you following him and I said yes because I was, you know in the area” pointing back toward the T intersection “And they said we don’t need you to do that and I said OK.
# 2:35 PD: Alright sir what is your name?
# 2:37 GZ: George…He ran.
# 2:40 PD: Alright George what’s your last name?
(#2:40 This is where all the wind across the mic stops..)
# 2:43 GZ: Zimmerman
# 2:45 PD: And George what’s the phone number you’re calling from?
# 2:47 GZ: [redacted by Mother Jones]
# 2:53 PD: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
@ 7:33 “Because I didn’t see a street sign here I knew if I went straight through that that is retreat view circle that I can give him an address and there’s no address because these are the back of the houses”
@ 7:46 At walkway where it turns due East “I walked straight through here and I didn’t see him at all”
# 2:56 GZ: Yeah.
# 2:57 PD: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
# 3:00 GZ: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
(# 3:00 GZ had said his flashlight wasn’t working, the tapping sound in the background could be him batting the flashlight with his hand)
@ 8:11 Top of T intersection “ I got to about here and I had a flashlight with me, and the flashlight was dead though”
@ 8:16 “I looked around and didn’t see anybody, and I told non-emergency I said ya know what he’s gone, he’s not even here.”
@ 8:23 “So I still thought I could use their address so I walked all the way through.
# 3:19 PD: OK, What address are you parked in front of?
# 3:22 GZ: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
@ 8:35 “I actually walked all the way through to the street and I was going to give them this address and they said if he is still not there do you still want a police officer and I said yes” at the western end of the E-W walkway.
# 3:27 PD: Okay do you live in the area?
# 3:29 GZ: Yeah, I…[unintelligible](Cut off by PD)
# 3:30 PD: What’s your apartment number?
# 3:32 GZ: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is.
# 3:39 PD: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
@ 9:16 “He’s not here, do you still want them to come, and I said yes and they said where do you want him to come to, and I said just tell him to meet me at my truck next to the clubhouse, you come straight in through the clubhouse and make a left and I have a silver Honda Ridgeline right there, I’ll meet him right there.
# 3:43 GZ: Yeah that’s fine.
# 3:46 PD: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay?
@ 9:32 “So I started walking back,
# 3:48 GZ: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
# 3:51 PD: Okay, yeah that’s no problem.
# 3:54 GZ: Should I give you my number or you got it?
# 3:55 PD: Yeah I got it [redacted by Mother Jones]
# 3:59 GZ: Yeah you got it.
# 4:00 PD: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the area.
# 4:04 GZ: Thanks.
@ 9:50 Somewhere around 9:50 he hangs up and puts his phone in his pocket while walking back east from the west side of the walkway.
(This is the point where we loose the solid information recorded during the phone call. At his point I would rather have an actual transcript of the walkthrough to compare to the official transcripts of the 911 calls.)
I find these two comments contradictory:
# 0:32 GZ: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He’s [unintelligible] (sounds like “Here now”), he was just staring…
# 0:44 PD: OK, he’s just walking around the area…
# 0:45 GZ: …looking at all the houses.
# 0:47 PD: OK…
# 0:48 GZ: Now he’s just staring at me.
@ 4:44 Martin walked past Zimmerman in his car looking at his car
AND:
# 1:04 GZ: He’s got his hand in his waistband. And he’s a black male. (This is the first close look Zimmerman has of Martin’s face.)
How can Zimmerman know that Trayvon is “staring” at him (#0:48) if he doesn’t have a close look at Martin’s face at that time?. . . kind of a paranoid statement from Zimmerman! The kid is probably curious to see that truck pacing him in the dark, but I don’t know how he could possibly be “staring” at the driver of the truck sitting in the dark, behind closed window and in the rain, unless the overhead light is on in the truck! Don’t you have to be able to see someone’s eyes to know if he is “staring” at you? And if you see someone’s eyes, don’t you have a close look at his face? And if you have a close look at someone’s face, can’t you determine if the person has Black features?
Why then did “someone” (I have no idea who added that comment) add to (#1:04)
that “it was the first time Z. got a close look at Martin’s face?
Key:
As I incorporate 911 calls I will use 9C1 for Call 1, 9C2 for call 2 etc using this page as the call reference I will only put the pertinent parts of the 911 calls since most of the calls are people telling others to get away from windows etc people with flashlights and most start sayin I don’t know what is going on… http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-martin-911-calls-audio/
@ = walkthrough video I do not have a transcript. If anyone can find a full transcript it would be appreciated. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFxKVEVU3kU&list=PL5B28DEA2850DE3E4&index=2&feature=plpp_video
() = My notes
All times are for reference to their source video so you can hear the words, not the clock time when the statement was made.
For video reference I have added the Fox Orlando video to give us an area reference from that night as to where the body actually was and Johns interview the next day to compare to Zimmermans Walk Through.
If there is something important I have missed, please give me a time on the video or the 911 call so we can all look at it.
@ 9:16 “He’s not here, do you still want them to come, and I said yes and they said where do you want him to come to, and I said just tell him to meet me at my truck next to the clubhouse, you come straight in through the clubhouse and make a left and I have a silver Honda Ridgeline right there, I’ll meet him right there. “
@ 9:32 “and I started walking back.”
@ 9:46 ”When I got to, I pass here I looked I didn’t see anything again, and I was walking back to my truck. “
@ 9:52 “And then when I got to right about here (East West walkway north of 1st tree west of T) he yelled from behind me and to the side of me (The first house is the only house with a Black Screened in Porch on that Bldg) he said Yo You Got a Problem.”
@ 10:02 “And I said no I don’t have a problem man.”
@ 10:03 Det. “And where is he at”
@ 10:05 “He is about there but he is walking towards me” ( He motions to the sidewalk next to the first tree heading south alond the walkway)
@10:08 Det. “So he is coming from this direction here”
@ 10:05 “yes sir I was already past that so I didn’t see exactly where he came from but he was about where you are, and I said I don’t have a problem “
@10:22 “And I went to go grab my cell phone and I had left it in a different pocket and I looked down at my pants pocket and he said You got a problem now”
@10:30 “ and he was here and he punched me in the face.”
@ 10:33 Det “Right here”
@ 10:34 “Right about up around here to be honest I don’t remember exactly I think I stumbled and I fell down or he pushed me or somehow he got on top of me.”
@ 10:48 Det “on the grass or on the cement”
@ 10:50 “It was more over towards here” (He heads to the other side of the tree, outside the black door on the screened in porch)
@10:55 “I think I was trying to push him away from me (Zimmerman is moving south as he says this), and he got on top of me somewhere around here ” (This gives us three reference points to determine location from on the video Halfway between the tree and the white water access cover in front of the Black Screen Door. According to where it appears on the Fox Orlando video it is appx 25ft further down the sidewalk. From the time the confrontation occurred to him being put into the police car I am not sure he would have known exactly how far along the path he was, I doubt he was lying, he was paying more attention to Martin no matter how the fight started. )
@ 11:08 “That is when I started screeming for help, I started screaming Help Help as loud as I could and ahmm then is when he grabbed, oh I tried to sit up and that is when he grabbed me by the head and tried to slam my head down”
@ 11:22 Det. “Were you on the cement or were you on the”
@ 11:26 “No my body was on the grass and my head was on the cement that’s as best as I can feel through my jacket it felt like my body was on the grass and my head was on the cement and he just kept slamming and slamming.”
@ 11:40 “and ahmm I kept yelling Help Help Help as loud as I could “
9C2 0:02 (You can hear screeming for help in the background)
9C3 0:21 “I hear someone screeming outside”
@ 11:46 “He put his hand on my nose and his other hand on my mouth and he said shut the fuck up and ahmm”
@ 11:53 “ Then I tried squirming again because all I could think about was when he was hitting my head against it felt like my head was going to explode and I thought I was going to loose consciousness and I tried to squirm so I could get cause he only had a small portion of my head on the concrete and when I did that “
@ 12:15 (Motions to middle house of Bldg) “Somebody here opened the door and I said help me help me and they said I’ll call 911 (I believe that was John) and I said no help me I need help and I don’t know what they did but ahh “
@ 12:27 “That’s when my jacket moved up and I had my firearm on my right side hip, my jacket moved up and he saw I, I feel like he saw saw he looked at and he said that youre going to die tonight mother fucker and he reached for it like I felt his arm going down to my side and I grabbed it and I just grabbed by firearm and “
@ 12:50 “I shot him one time.” (This is probably the easiest reference point to base the 911 tapes on since it was either heard by the witness or actually recorded on the 911 calls.)
9C2 0:41 (you can hear the gunshot in the background)
@ 12:55 Det “After you shot him what did he say”
9C2 1:21 “He’s behind my house”
9C3 0:26 “I just heard a gunshot”
9C4 0:07 “I just heard a shot behind my house”
9C7 0:24 “Someone is two doors down from he screaming hollering Help Help Help, and there is an elderly man that lives down there and I thought I heard like a gunshot. I’m inside so I don’t know it would probably be an ambulance.” “how many shots did you hear” “1”
9C8 0:10 “Someone os screaming help and I heard like a bang”
@ 12:57 “after I shot him he like sat up “
@ 13:00 Det “you are still in this position here basically laying down here you shot him so he is in the grass”
@ 13:04 “He was on top of me like this and I shot him and I didn’t think I hit him cause he sat up and he said OK you got me “
@ 13:13 “You got it, you got me something like that so I thought he was just saying I know you have a gun now I heard it “
@ 13:20 “I don’t know if I pushed him off me or he fell off me either way I got on top of him and I pushed his arms apart “
@ 13:28 Det “did you try to flip him over”
@ 13:30 “I don’t remember how I got on top of him I’m sorry but I got on his back and I moved his arms apart because when he was repeatedly hitting me in the face and the head I thought he had something in his hand so I moved his hands apart ”
9C4 0:14 “They are wresteling right behind my porch.”
@ 13:46 Det “So you had him face down then”
@ 13:47 “Yes I had him face down on his back and then somebody came with a flashlight and I thought it was a Police Officer so I said are you the Police”
9C4 0:22 “The guy is yelling help and I am not going outside”
@13:57 “And I still had my handgun out and I told him I said are you the police my guns right here and he goes no no I’m not the police I’m calling the police”
@ 14:06 “Don’t call the police help me restrain this guy and ahmm he said I’m calling the police, I’m calling the police and I said I already called their on their way they’re coming I need your help “
9C4 0:55 “I’m pretty sure the guys dead out here holy shit”
9C4 1:05 “There is a guy with a flashlight im my backard right now”
9C5 0:01 “I think someone has been shot”
9C6 0:05 “my brother said someone got shot outside”
9C6 1:09 (This on is a statement given about events less that 3 minutes after they had happened) “I saw a man laying on the ground that needed help and then I was going to go over there to try and help him but my dog got off the leash I went and got my dog and then I heard a loud sound and then it stopped” 911: “did you see the person yelling” “no” did you see the person that was shot or did you see the person that had the gun” “no I just heard a loud sound and then the screaming stoppped”
@ 14:19 “And ahh then is when the police officer ahh came around and I saw the police officer and I stood up and I holstered my weapon and he said who shot him and I said I did and I put my hands up”
@ 14:31 “I don’t know if he told me to or I just automatically turned my back to him and I lifted my shirt and I said my guns right there and I told him a few times my guns right there and he said I understand I just need you to keep your hands up and he put the handcuffs on me and then he took my firearm from me”
—–
Sorry this is the best I have right now for matching timelines.
It is up to the prosecution to overcome reasonable doubt right now, the Defense will try to knock down what ever they put forth. If the prosecution puts on a witness to Martin Angelically walking on water, the defense could counter that with Travons Fight Club videos. If the Prosecution puts on a witness saying there is no Zimmerman DNA on Martins Hands they could call their own expert witness to explain why or just ask if every piece of DNA on his hands was tested. If they try to nit pick the details of his various interrogations from his memory without major differences in major events then O’Mara calls a PTSD expert, you can find them near any miitary base anymore. Whatever the Prosecution does, all O’Mara has to do is raise doubts about it.
The bottom line is if the evidence and witnesses mean it could have possibly happened both this way and the way the prosecution claims then the Jury is instructed to find Not-Guilty. The prosecution has to Prove it happened their way Beyond a reasonable doubt, O’Mara doesn’t have to prove anything.
Actually that was part of a discussion a long time ago when we were first dissecting the 911 tape about MSNBC editing the tape, After the Dispacher asked White Black or Hispanic GZ said he looks black, then he confirmed it at time 1:04 Anything in () are my comments.
February 29 Part 3 audio is pretty wild.
Investigators play the dispatcher tape for Zimmerman and simultaneously ask Zimmerman questions. They also play the tape for Zimmerman where someone is screaming.
Investigators find several discrepancies in Zimmerman’s story that Zimmerman appears unable to explain.
It’s a pretty wild audio.
Highlights:
In his first interviews with police, Zimmerman said Trayvon disappeared and then came out of nowhere and circled his truck. Then during the Feb 29 Part 3 interview, Zimmerman says he was PARKED AT THE CLUBHOUSE when he reported to the dispatcher that Trayvon was walking towards him. On the dispatcher tape, Zimmerman never loses sight of Trayvon from the time Trayvon started walking towards him to the very short time afterwards when Trayvon started running and Zimmerman got out of his truck to follow (Zimmerman says he had moved his vehicle to Twin Trees by then).
The timing is very strange, and the detectives appear to agree.
When asked by the investigator if he jumped out of the car as soon as Trayvon started running, Zimmerman says “yes”. One investigator says, “That’s not fear”.
They also discuss why Trayvon may have started running. Zimmerman says he doesn’t know.
They discuss the timing related to why Zimmerman didn’t get back to his truck. I think Zimmerman says he didn’t want to walk in the dark, because his flashlight wasn’t working.
They discuss why Zimmerman told the dispatcher to call him when they got to the complex instead of meeting him at the truck.
They play the tape of someone screaming and ask Zimmerman to tell them where he was being suffocated.
Very wild tape. I would think this tape will be played at the trial. Maybe Zimmerman will have some better answers then, with the help of his lawyer.
.
Zimmerman the police were supposed to meet at the mailboxes, not his car. No biggie. This indicates that Zimmerman parked near the mailboxes.
Zimmerman then tells the police dispatch to call him indicating he’s not sure he’ll be in the aforementioned vicinity. I think this is where he actually spots Trayvon Martin and makes a decision to pick up his pursuit, but doesn’t want the dispatcher to know he’s still actively following Trayvon Martin.
Zimmerman needs the police to respond to verify he, himself, has done good detective work and profiled properly. Of course he couldn’t be further from the truth or reality, but nuts usually don’t let facts or real-life get in the way of the “story”.
“Zimmerman the police were supposed to meet at the mailboxes, not his car. No biggie. This indicates that Zimmerman parked near the mailboxes.”
Go listen again.
Zimmerman never actually said that he was parked near the mailboxes, he was just giving directions so poorly that the dispatcher suggested the mailboxes as something Zimmerman wouldn’t have to give directions to or go find an address for.
Any of those places, you come in and one of the first things you see are the mailboxes.
unitron
Yes, I thought the two detectives (Serino and Singleton, I think) were very good. They kind of increased the pressure in a subtle way. . .and basically pointed out to discrepancies without “accusing” Zimmerman of anything.
The part 3 was the most informative and fascinating, I think.
I listened to almost 3 hours of these audios last night and posted my own list of discrepancies (my opinion only, of course) in the Trayvon thread.
I guess my list wasn’t worth commenting on it, or everyone had left that thread! LOL
Shucks sadanie, I didn’t see your post. I just went over there looking for it and still couldn’t find it. If I see it, I promise I’ll read it!
I’m thinking that when Zimmerman’s story is compared to the forensics, it could be pretty bad for Zimmerman.
Also, CommonSense, were you the one who mentioned something about self-inflicted wounds? I’m not sure if you mentioned it or if someone else did.
Anyway, the larger crescent-shaped wound on the back of Zimmerman’s head looks like the edge of the grip on the gun in one of the photos of the same model, but not the exact gun belonging to Zimmerman. On Zimmerman’s gun, it looks like part of the grip is detachable, and I’m wondering if that same sharp edge is underneath. I’m not a gun person myself.
Speaking of which, do any of the Zimmerman supporters here NOT carry a gun?
I’m willing to admit I could be TOTALLY off on the self-inflicted gun wound thing.
But it certainly looks like a very perfect sharp crescent for coming from a cement sidewalk.
@hapufern –
“When asked by the investigator if he jumped out of the car as soon as Trayvon started running, Zimmerman says “yes”. One investigator says, ‘That’s not fear’.”
Wasn’t that the tape where the officer said “He was running from you.”?
@unitron –
“Zimmerman never actually said that he was parked near the mailboxes, he was just giving directions so poorly that the dispatcher suggested the mailboxes as something Zimmerman wouldn’t have to give directions to or go find an address for.”
Actually, he did. He say’s you’ll see my truck after passing the mailboxes in his original call to dispatch. Listen again at about 3:10 forward at this link:
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/zimmerman-9-1-1-calls/
“Zimmerman never actually said that he was parked near the mailboxes….”
“Actually, he did. He say’s you’ll see my truck after passing the mailboxes in his original call to dispatch. Listen again at about 3:10 forward at this link:”
7:12:35: Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes,[Note 3, 4th picture] that’s my truck…[unintelligible]
7:12:44: Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
7:12:53: Zimmerman: I don’t know. It’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
But he did not use the word “near”.
Was he parked near the cut-through, or was he parked near the mailbox kiosk?
I will concede that if he was telling the truth in the video about first parking at the clubhouse he was, at that time, near the mailboxes, but by the time he’s gotten out of the truck and run, he’s no longer parked there.
unitron
hilarious stuff…….he says mailboxes and my truck is right there, and YOU claim he didnt use the word “near” so right there doesnt mean near the mailboxes.
Are you one of those people who define “near” on a scale that includes other solar systems?
When he pulled into the clubhouse parking lot (if he did so), he was near the mailboxes.
After that he supposedly drove east on TTL and parked near where it bends south and where the western end of the east-west sidewalk that forms the crossbar of the “T” connects to TTL.
At that point he was farther away from the mailboxes than when he was at the clubhouse, and I consider that far enough away to no longer be “near” them, unless you’re using a definition that would make being anywhere inside the neighborhood “near” the mailboxes.
Wow! @ hapufern –
I hadn’t seen your comment before. Yes, I am absolutely one of the people that is of the belief that Zimmerman’s wounds may have been self-inflicted and I hope the police have explored that avenue of possibilities.
Over on bcclist.com, I’ve read about gun “blow-back” that could possibly account for Zimmerman’s “injuries” to the front of his face.
I know from reading and listening to witness statements that George Zimmerman put his hands on his bleeding head before EMT arrived and that his hands were free to dab blood on his nose/face. I know from reading/listening to witness statements that after doing these things, George asked a witness to verify his face had blood on it. I know from reading/hearing witness statements that the SFD washed blood off of Zimmerman’s hands as part of their clean up. I know from reading and hearing the original bond hearing that George Zimmerman’s family places an emphasis on blood being drawn as an excuse for violent acts.
So yes, imo, the evidence shows to me that George Zimmerman believes that blood evidence is needed to excuse violent acts (in this situation, a killing) and in the absence of such evidence, he has both motive and opportunity to create it. Zimmerman claims he jumped on Trayvon Martin’s body and moved his hands and arms around — AFTER HE CLAIMS TO HAVE BEEN BLEEDING, but before any other witness, paramedic or the police arrived. Then police found Trayvon Martin’s hands underneath his body although witnesses first observed the body in a sprawled out position.
Per forensics and SFD paramedics, Trayvon Martin didn’t bleed after his gunshot wound, so all blood found at the crime scene is George Zimmerman’s. Even the blood found on the bag of Skittles Trayvon Martin bought from the 7-11 and any other evidence found on Trayvon Martin’s underclothing and overclothing (hoodie).
Basically, there is no untainted evidence available for a defense.
Pro Zimmerman:
It’s George’s word against:
Pro Justice:
DeeDee’s account of what she heard and the HOA lady’s account of what she heard and knows about George’s confrontational demeanor and the teacher’s account that there was only a scuffle and the witness that saw a chase and the witness that didn’t see George’s mouth yelling for help and the witnesses that saw George Zimmerman walk towards the tee before the key/flashlight on pic was taken and the witnesses that heard a “young boy” crying for help and the voice experts that said it wasn’t George Zimmerman screaming for help and the witness that saw George’s tee-shirt pop against all the other dark colors and Frank Taaffe who said George may have just “had enough” and the criminal priors and the injunction by a former girlfriend and the neighbors who claim they found George Zimmerman’s confrontations offensive and the co-workers that said George Zimmerman bullied them and the former co-worker that gave an account of George Zimmerman working under-the-table (avoiding taxes) as a “bouncer” and exploding against a patron by throwing her with such force as to break some of her body parts and an ex-girlfriend who filed for an injunction against him and over 40 calls to the police for minor infractions AND GEORGE ZIMMERMAN’S fabricated account. We haven’t even gotten to forensics yet.
WOW!!!
There is soooo much I don’t trust about Zimmerman (and his whole family, actually!)
And I agree that there is a very good possibility that the facial injuries were self-inflicted, and that the back of the head “injuries” may have been the result of a fall during a struggle between the two men.
And, Hapufern, I also agree with you that it is unconscionable to continue to beat up on a teenage girl!
I guess some people are desperate to find ANYTHING to counter balance all the lies that are being discovered coming from Zimmerman.
Hapufern –
The mailboxes are actually near the cut-through. You can see the mailboxes from the position Frank Taaffe stands at which is also by the dog-walk cut-through during his reinactment of George Zimmerman’s story released before George Zimmerman’s statements.
The mail shed, the presumed place Zimmerman was parked and the dog-walk (which forms the top of the T) are all along one straight, unencumbered path.
We both reached for the gun…
Sounds familiar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBM82Ju2kJU
Sure. . .except that Zimmerman had his hands free. . .since he wasn’t “attacking” Trayvon. . .and his gun was obviously placed close to his Right hand (since he was right handed). . .and let’s not consider here that the gun was also placed toward the back of his right hip. . .at his waist and that Trayvon was reportedly sitting on his waist, thus the gun was squeezed between the ground and Zimmerman’s hip, with a 158lbs teenager weighing on that part of Zimmerman’s body.
While Trayvon was ALSO Right handed. . .and he had to (reportedly) managed to reach with his RIGHT hand across and between the two bodies. . .while at the same time pressing a hand on Zimmerman’s nose and mouth to smother “his” cries and suffocate him, AND hold Zimmerman’s head to keep on repeatedly smash it in the concrete!
Yep. .. that’s seems like an easy feat. . .for a NINJA with at least 3 arms!
If according to Zimmerman, he tried to get Zimmerman’s gun then he in fact wasn’t capable of reaching across his body and working the gun out of its holster from the wrong angle. Taking a gun out of a holster at a cockeyed angle i.e. from the front of the person is not an easy task even if the person actively cooperating with you. If you are in a fight with a person that has a gun in a holster then you are far better off trying to keep them from getting it out of the holster, not trying to get it out yourself. When you choose a holster you choose it to put it at a usable angle for you that means unless they are squeezed up against your back it is incredibly hard. Like the mythical “Shoot them in the Leg” it only usually works in the movies as Martin apparently found out. Him not getting the gun out doesn’t mean he didn’t try, it may just mean he wasn’t capable of completing the Ninja Move as you put it.
Well, I think one thing we pretty much KNOW at this point is that Trayvon did NOT have his hands over Zimmerman’s nose and mouth. Zimmerman’s nose was bleeding, and Trayvon would have had Zimmerman’s blood on his hands. He didn’t.
So the smothering thing is out the window for Zimmerman, and this is a big part of his story of the final moments before shooting Trayvon.
Wasn’t the DNA testing done on fingernail scrapings and clothing?
hapufern,
You can establish the presence of someones DNA beyond a reasonable doubt, but you can not prove its absence. I have proposed “Did you test ALL the DNA” for a reason. DNA Can establish that a hand was on a mouth, but can not be used to prove it wasn’t.
Insp. G
From the person known as willisnewton on TalkLeft, here’s a series of photos, with notes, showing where and how far apart various pieces of evidence, including what used to be Trayvon, wound up.
unitron
Thanks unitron for the link. So there was stuff all over the place. This is hardly consistent with Zimmerman’s story that: Trayvon punched Zimmerman at the T, Zimmerman immediately fell, and Trayvon got on top of him – unless, Zimmerman is a really, really good squirmer!
I didn’t know there were two flashlights – one on the key chain and the bigger one too.
I wonder how close the shape of the end of that flashlight is to the crescent shape on the back of Zimmerman’s head (sorry, I know that’s far-fetched).
Once when I as a teenager, many moons ago, a “friend” (sort of) decided to stay out all night with her boyfriend. The next day her mother called my mother and accused me of beating up her daughter. Apparently, my poor friend was looking for an excuse for staying out all night, so she decided to tell her parents that she was afraid to come home because I’d beaten her up (I know. It doesn’t even make sense.). She actually hit herself in the face several times with a rock. I saw her later, and she was a mess, with a busted swollen lip and black eyes. Pretty shocking.
It’s thought by many that the clicking sound after Zimmerman gets out and runs after Martin is not anything to do with his gun but banging the larger flashlight to get it to work.
Apparently that model is known for having a faulty switch.
But then again, almost every flashlight in existence has a sorry excuse for an actual switch made by an actual manufacturer of quality switches.
unitron
The photos show Zimmerman’s keychain/flashlight were found right near the T intersection of the path. That confirms that is where he was first attacked and where he dropped the chain which he probably had in his hand since he was about to return to his car. See my post above at June 23, 2012 at 4:03 am
GZ’s dropping of his keychain/flashlight near the T intersection of the paths also confirms he wasn’t chasing Martin down the path since he would not have dropped his keys there it that is what happened. The coincidence of dropping the keys right by where he says he is attacked is a very strong supporting piece of evidence confirming his story he was attacked there.
In his first interview with Serino (2/27 early AM), Zimmerman says that his flashlight was dead. Serino says it was working now (when he was at the crime scene). And then says you have to whack it a couple of times.
Serino may have been mixed up. The flashlight on the keychain was on.
I’m thinking that forensics could take down Zimmerman’s self-defense claim bit by bit.
It seems to me that the major pieces of self-defense are Zimmerman’s claims that:
1. His head was being smashed on the concrete.
2. He was getting hit in the face repeatedly.
3. He was being smothered
4. He couldn’t get away.
5. Trayvon was going for Zimmerman’s gun
6. Trayvon told Zimmerman he was going to die
7. Trayvon made the first hit at the T (while Zimmerman was heading back to his truck), and Zimmerman was out of commission from then until he shot Trayvon.
#2 and #3 are out of the picture because Trayvon didn’t have any blood on his hands. Also presents a credibility issue.
#1 is doubtful to me because there are only 2 cuts on the back of the head, and the larger one looks very suspicious because of the perfect crescent shape. If forensics shows for instance that the flashlight fits the wound and has Zimmerman DNA on it, uh oh. Also, the blood flows towards the face and is minimally smeared. This wouldn’t have happened if Zimmerman was on the ground, on his back, during or after being smashed into the concrete. Something’s not right here. And how was Trayvon gripping Zimmerman’s head? Not by the hair (obviously). And in the pictures at least, the backs of the ears don’t look red or have nail marks.
#4 might possibly be tossed out if the witness comes forward who was mentioned by the detective. This witness supposedly claims to have seen a scenario that looked like Zimmerman attempting to detain Trayvon. I don’t know if this witness will come forward, or even if the detective was just making this up. Whatever the case, the scene itself doesn’t appear to support Zimmerman’s story that he fell and was incapacitated where at the T.
#5. Zimmerman told the detective there was no way that Trayvon could have possibly seen his holstered gun when Zimmerman went for his cellphone at the T. But then he said he thought Trayvon DID see the gun during the fight because Zimmerman’s shirt slid up. Where exactly was this gun holstered, and does it come together correctly that Trayvon couldn’t have seen it at the T but could have seen it during the conflict later?
Just as an aside, Zimmerman said he went for his cellphone (in his pocket), and that’s when Trayvon hit him. Zimmerman also said he had his flashlight in his hand at the time. The flashlight was found approx. 40 feet further down, near Trayvon’s body. Did Zimmerman put his flashlight in his left hand when he went for the cellphone with his right? Why didn’t Zimmerman hit Trayvon with the flashlight, if he carried it 40 feet south while Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman?
#7. How do you move 40 feet with someone on top of you punching you in the face, smothering you, and beating your head against the pavement?
#6. I have nothing to say about this one, except that I think if the rest of the self-defense claims – or even most of the claims – are determined to be untrue, then #6 doesn’t present a problem for the prosecution.
This is all very biased and most of it is speculation, I know. But there’s certainly a lot of stuff about Zimmerman’s statement that doesn’t add up to the facts.
Exactly! Does Zimmerman think we believe Trayvon Martin had eyes in the back of his head or on his butt? I mean, according to Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin was straddling him, so how would he see his gun holstered in his pants?
From the very first recorded interview, at 12:30 mark:
Zimmerman admits that he was “trying to figure out where [Trayvon] went” when he got out of the car. He changes his mind later, apparently.
But then when he describes how the fight started, he is absolutely adamant that the fight did not travel far — he went down with the first punch, and was on the ground after that:
Zimmerman: “So I was walking back through to where my car was and he jumped out from the bushes and he said ‘What the fuck’s your problem homey?’ And I got out my cellphone out to call 911 this time. And I say, ‘Hey man, I don’t have a problem,’ and he goes ‘Now you have a problem.’ And he punched me in the nose. At that point I fell down, I tried to defend myself. He just started punching me in the face. And, uh, I started screaming for help, I couldn’t see, I couldn’t breathe. Then he started taking my head…”
Investigator: “And you’re still standing at this point?”
Zimmerman: “No ma’am, I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time. It was dark, I didn’t even see him getting ready to punch me. As soon as he punched me I fell backwards into the grass. And then he grabbed me and he was whaling on my head, and then I started yelling help. when i started yelling help, He grabbed my head and he started to hit my head into the — I tried to sit up and yell for help and then he grabbed my head and started hitting it into the sidewalk. When he started doing that I, I slid into the grass to try and get out from under him, and so he would stop hitting my head into the sidewalk, I was still yelling for help. I could see people looking and some guy yells out ‘I’m calling 911’ and I said ‘help me, help me, he’s killing me,’ and he puts his hand on my nose and on my mouth and he says your going to die tonight and I, I don’t remember much after that. I just remember I couldn’t breathe and then he still kept trying to hit my head against the pavement, or, I don’t know if it was a sign or what it was, so I just… when I slid my jacket and my shirt came up and when he said your… I felt his hand go down on my side and I thought he was going for my firearm so I grabbed it immediately and as he banged my head again I just pulled out my firearm and shot him.”
Liar, liar, pants on fire.
(1) Zimmerman says he fell “backwards into the grass”…. but he winds up laying down so that his head is on the sidewalk, while his body is on the grass? Wrong. If you are on a sidewalk and fall back onto the grass, you do not wind up with only your head on the sidewalk. Nor would the fight move south — which is the direction Zimmerman says he was facing when he “fell backwards.”
(2) Zimmerman says he shot Trayvon as Trayvon bashed his head into the sidewalk again…. but in later stories he always claims they were in the middle of a fight over the gun, and he had Trayvon’s hand pinned at his own side with his arm. But in this first interview, Trayvon is still happily bashing Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk. Yeah right.
(3) Zimmerman initially claims Trayvon said “you’re going to die tonight” right after ‘John’ came out, and while Trayvon was covering Zimmerman’s mouth and nose. Later, he changes the story to make it clear Trayvon said “you’re going to die tonight” while Trayvon was reaching for his gun.
(4) Zimmerman does not, to my knowledge, ever repeat the claim that he told a witness “he’s killing me” during the struggle, as he did in this first interview.
(5) Zimmerman, in this initial interview, first says “I got out my cellphone out to call 911.” A few minutes later, he then says he can’t even remember if he had his phone out: “I don’t remember if I had time to pull it out or not.” In later interviews, he is clear the phone never actually made it out, because he “lost it” and doesn’t know what pocket it might be in.
Zimmerman is clear at all points through this interview that he knew police were on the way and almost there, and that witnesses were all around watching him. Christ. He didn’t need to shoot Trayvon — he knew help was on the way. And chose to go ahead and shoot the kid in the chest anyway.
“into the grass”
So basically, George’s own “squirming” landed him on the concrete if he started out on the grass. Priceless!
I don’t think dropping the keychain at the T confirms that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman there. Maybe Zimmerman attacked Trayvon there.
Martin and Zimmerman were 45 feet south of the “T” and Martin hit Zimmerman in the nose so hard it propelled the keyring and flashlight 35 to 40 feet back to the north.
: – )
unitron
Well thanks unitron. That explains THAT!
Agree! And maybe, George Zimmerman dropped them there when George walked up towards the Tee AFTER he had killed Trayvon Martin. Witnesses saw him walking away from the body. One witness saw Zimmerman walking towards the Tee (Witness #13). That’s the witness who snapped the picture of George’s head and called Zimmerman’s wife. He lives in one of the end units — across from the HOA lady.
I agree. Could be he was so intent on following him he didn’t realize he dropped them.
“jimrtex
on June 23, 2012 at 9:49 pm said:
“Not true. She said he was confrontational in the sense of confronting the problem of burglaries in the neighborhood.”
If it’s not true, what’s your take on what she meant by her statements on 3/2/12?
Here’s a transcript of that portion of Witness #11’s 3/2/2012 interview which begins at the 4:44 mark:
SERINO: So, typically speaking, you have somebody [Zimmerman] who would basically try to avoid confrontation or would you call him confrontational?
WITNESS #11: I would say he would try to.. I mean he was confrontational in the fact that he was trying to do the neighborhood watch thing.
SERINO: Okay. Compassionate about it?
WITNESS #11: Yeah. And, you know, wanted to help out the neighborhood and this and that. And I think if he saw something going on he would confront the person. But not confrontational in the sense like he’s trying to have it.. you know, an altercation or something like that.
CommonSenseForChange blurted in a matter of fact way:
“If it’s not true, what’s your take on what she meant by her statements on 3/2/12?
Here’s a transcript of that portion of Witness #11′s 3/2/2012 interview which begins at the 4:44 mark:”
SERINO: So, typically speaking, you have somebody [Zimmerman] who would basically try to avoid confrontation or would you call him confrontational?
…
”
Won’t the jury listen to the whole interview from 4:17 to 5:37?
@jimrtex –
“Won’t the jury listen to the whole interview from 4:17 to 5:37?”
I would hope they would. There’s no way around what she said, which is:
“WITNESS #11: I would say he would try to.. I mean he was confrontational in the fact that he was trying to do the neighborhood watch thing.
SERINO: Okay. Compassionate about it?
WITNESS #11: Yeah. And, you know, wanted to help out the neighborhood and this and that. And I think if he saw something going on HE WOULD CONFRONT THE PERSON. But not confrontational in the sense like he’s trying to have it.. you know, an altercation or something like that.
————-
No way a jury would not understand that Zimmerman, like this particular HOA board member, was under the ignorant and false understanding that a NW vigilante without even a badge had a “right” to confront another community member or guest. HOA lady seems to think NW permits confrontations. She’s wrong. Zimmerman was wrong. Zimmerman admits “following” was against the rules.
“what was going through your mind?”
“she was right”
In response to
Dispatch: “Are you following him?”
Zimmerman: “yeah.”
Dispatch: “OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
Zimmerman: “OK” — [although many many seconds later Zimmerman’s huffing and puffing is still heard walking/running after his admission that he’s following him]
Is chasing a confrontational behavior? What about following?
CSFC:
SERINO: Not like a little Nazi running around?
WITNESS: No.
@jimrtex
on June 27, 2012 at 1:00 am said:
CSFC:
SERINO: Not like a little Nazi running around?
WITNESS: No.
——————-
Since he’s not charged with being “little Nazi”, why would that part matter? Keep in mind, the HOA lady (witness #11) ought to have known better than to allow a “confrontational” person to perform Neighborhood Watch duties.
@jimtrex
“They heard an exchange of perhaps 3 voices, and then scuffling and maybe 3 grunts like HUH, HUH, HUH (grunt is my impression of the sound they make in their 911 calls), which turned into helps, and then the gunshot. In their first interview they say they heard their next door neighbor John call out.”
That’s not all she said. At about the 6:42 mark In the 3/2/12 interview of Witness #11 (the HOA lady) also said what she heard was like “what are you doing..” or something like that. Oddly enough, that’s what DeeDee said she heard, too.
Witness #11 also said she thought that George Zimmerman would be confrontational as a neighborhood watchman.
One witness also said George Zimmerman walked about 10-20 ft away from the dead body before she saw someone else come up to George Zimmerman with a flashlight just before the police arrived. She refers to George Zimmerman walking somewhere near the “small tree”.
See trees by the Tee: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/7276917644/in/set-72157629903981738/
CSFC
“Witness #11 also said she thought that George Zimmerman would be confrontational as a neighborhood watchman.”
Not true. She said he was confrontational in the sense of confronting the problem of burglaries in the neighborhood. Is President Obama confrontational?
The problem is, Zimmerman just isn’t the brightest bulb in the drawer. Sometimes it is hard to tell when he is lying, and when he is just too stupid and confused to understand what’s going on around him.
In the 2/29 Serino Interview, Zimmerman gives the following answer for why he couldn’t remember the name of the street he was on:
Except… (1) Zimmerman instantly and without hesitation identifies the street as Twin Trees Ln. during the video walk-through on 2/27, and (2) those streets do not change names when they branch off.
Giving someone that confused and inept a gun was just asking for trouble, unfortunately.
Listen to his voice during the walk-through, and then listen to him on the recording the night before.
I don’t think Trayvon was the one on drugs that night.
unitron
The only words Zimmerman speaks up about or is emphatic about are “exactly” and “exact”. Same diction noticed by his wife.
The other consistent theme among the Zimmerman clan is that the victim “drew blood”. This is apparently a major factor in excusing violent reactions to the Zimmermans.
Is there an explanation that I’m missing about why the Zimmermans seem to believe that a “drawing blood” incident is reason to believe law-breaking actions are then justified?
There is a street sign right next to the clubhouse where they parked when he gave the name of the street. Maybe that triggered a recollection, or maybe he had checked when he got home. One of the other witness who lives on RVC called it Twin Lanes.
If you go east on Long Oak Way, you travel 500 feet, and then turn on Twin Trees Lane to go 100 feet south, and then go east another 300 feet on Twin Trees Land. There is no reason they couldn’t have named it Long Oak all the away across.
I can totally buy that someone would not remember all details and times of an event accurately, heck, I know I wouldn’t.
But what you don’t muddle up is in what order you were where. GZ says he first spotted TM at 1460 RVC, who was being suspicious, then he drove down the street to the clubhouse and parked, then he drove to the spot on TTL where he would eventually get out of his car. He also says he parked at the clubhouse after the NEN call connected. Let’s assume all that is true.
The NEN call has recorded the facts of the timings of what happened, but can’t give exact locations, so this is where we have to try to see if what GZ said in his written statement or the re-enactment fit with those facts. If they cannot, what GZ said or wrote cannot be true, even if he only mis-remembered, rather than was deliberately lying.
FACT: GZ got out of his car 2:09 after the start of that call. You can hear the seat belt unbuckle, the car door open, the ‘car door open pings”, and the car door close, at which time the ‘pings’ stop, which is at 2:14.
So at some point between 00:04 of the call and 2:08 of the call, GZ had to have moved his vehicle from the clubhouse to TTL. The police in the re-enactment took about 30 seconds to drive there, GZ may have gone a little faster or slower, so let’s call it 25-35 seconds of driving.
00:00:58 Z: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.
00:001:00 D: OK. [possibly sound of putting car into reverse?]
00:01:03 Z: He’s got his hands in his waistband….
00:01:05 [ping]
00:01:08 Z: And he’s a Black male.
00:01:10 D: OK, how old would you say he is?
00:01:11 Z: He’s got a button on his shirt – Late teens.
00:01:14 D: Late teens, OK.
00:01:16 Z: Um hmm … Something’s wrong with him. … Yep …
00:01:22 Z: He’s coming to check me out… He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is.
I’m not certain if the sounds at 1:00 and 1:05 indicate he was pulling away from the clubhouse, but what is clear from this is that from 0:58 through 01:22, GZ could see TM – he had not disappeared into anything yet. And GZ did see him from the front – he verified ethnicity and determined age from seeing his face closely enough (even if partially covered by hoodie) and he identified the button on the shirt, presumably worn on the front (this button was later found in TM’s pocket).
Looking at where GZ said his vehicle was parked from the video re-enactment, GZ could only have seen TM approaching him from the west or north – he could not, from his car, see the east side or back of the clubhouse.
Now, how did TM walk almost all the way to the T in 45 seconds if it takes about 35 to drive there (albeit somewhat slowly)?
YouTube of re-enactment:
If you have not already, please listen, or re-listen, to the tape and let me know what you think of the sounds at 1:00 and 1:05, or if you think you here anything else significat before the running.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/16/trayvon-martin-911-audio-_n_1354909.html
(First audio clip)
Sorry, forgot to mention: GZ starts talking about the clubhouse parking at about 4:10 of the video.
Watching that video again, at 10:00 to 10:35, is pretty chilling. Zimmerman cannot explain what he has done for the past 90 seconds — in the reenactment, he acts as if only 4-5 seconds had passed, but we know more than a minute has — but says as he’s walking past the T, Trayvon comes behind him and says “You got a problem?”
Zimmerman then says he responded “No I don’t have a problem,” and tried to grab his phone. But Zimmerman forgot where his phone was. But look how he turns — towards his right side, reaching down towards his waist. Where his gun was.
Zimmerman says at that point Trayvon said “well you do now” and came over to punch him. But by Zimmerman’s own admission, he was reaching at his gun just before Trayvon came at him! Zimmerman claims he’d been going for his phone (but forgot where it was) but all Trayvon would have seen is Zimmerman grabbing at his holster.
So by Zimmerman’s own story…. Trayvon had every right to feel that his life was threatened before the fight even started.
MarvinM, use page search to find my analysis at ‘PeterO on June 22, 2012 at 4:50 pm said:’ and the correction about the pool part a few posts down from it.
The sequence you describe at about 1 minute into the tape, fits in when Martin turned back from the T intersection of the two paths, so Martin was coming back from the East toward Zimmerman in his car, and Martin was likely on the grass not the sidewalk itself.
You have to listen to the walk through in its entirety and consider the best ‘landmark’ measurement to use is about how far Martin would travel walking within the two minutes on the tape until he ran and compare those times with the distances estimated to be covered by Martin on the map.
Zimmerman’s version of the overall movements of Martin, fits very well with the time elapsed and estimated distances Martin was traveling while walking. As for the car movement, however long it took to drive etc. to the final parking is what it is, but it doesn’t change the key to the analysis which is Martin’s movements.
Here is the full video enactment:
@Susan –
“Zimmerman then says he responded “No I don’t have a problem,” and tried to grab his phone. But Zimmerman forgot where his phone was. But look how he turns — towards his right side, reaching down towards his waist. Where his gun was.”
That is also what I noticed. In fact, Zimmerman’s gestures are the same throughout his interviews in this regard. Each time he claimed to reach for his phone, he instead used motions that indicated he was reaching for his gun. I doubt this was a coincidence at all.
The Sanford police did a much better job investigating than was immediately apparent, but that “walk-through” was terrible if it was supposed to be something that someone not right there that day talking to him is supposed to be able to use to figure out what happened.
They start out recording the conversation in the car following the car in which Zimmerman is riding, so who knows what we missed of what was said between Zimmerman and the cop driving during the trip from Zimmerman’s house to Taaffe’s house (what an amazing co-incidence that he first sees Martin standing around in front of Frank’s house–but isn’t concerned enough about his BFF to stop and get out and make sure this suspicious character hasn’t done something to Frank’s family)
They should have had him get out and walk everywhere that Martin, according to him, walked.
When he’s talking about getting hit and his head banged, he should have been facing the way he was that night, or better yet, lying in the same spot. When he gets out from under Martin after shooting him and gets on top, they should have had him down on his knees demonstrating it turned the way he was the night before, and during that portion they should have had him and the cop close-mic’ed but gone for a video shot from farther away to let you see Zimmerman in relation to the houses.
Of course he still comes up about 50% short on how far away the body was from the “T”.
Not to mention the shell casing.
Someone on bcclist advanced the theory that Trayvon’s phone was back there where the body was because it was still in a pocket until Zimmerman pulled it out while frisking Martin’s corpse or near corpse.
And the idea that Martin got out of sight behind the buildings and then came back and circled all the way around Zimmerman’s Honda while it was parked there on Twin Trees shining it’s headlights up the cut-through sidewalk, but Zimmerman on the phone doesn’t say he disappeared, oh now he’s back again and coming to check me out?
Somebody take a look at the 1:34 mark in this video
and tell me if the vehicle on the left looks like a Honda Ridgeline or not.
A couple of months ago I saw a still photo of what I’m right next to being absolutely certain is the same vehicle in daylight the next day, probably early morning, but it was too tight a shot to see where or which way it was parked, and I haven’t been able to find it again.
unitron
It’s not a Ridgeline.
Ridgeline’s are possibly the ugliest cars on earth, and that’s not one of them.
The walk-through was disappointing in a lot of ways. It is important for Zimmerman to give his story, with as little prompting as possible, but I wish they’d gone back a second time and questioned him on the inconsistencies as he was walking through. But trying to put the 2/29 interview and the walk-through together just doesn’t work.
Here’s his story from the 2/29 interview:
“I didn’t need my hand anymore”, “but I realized I didn’t need my hand”? Huh? What is he possibly talking about? Really unclear how to make sense of this.
In the walk through, Zimmerman says “[Trayvon] grabbed my head and started slamming it down,” and then “he put his hand on my nose and he put his other hand on my mouth.” So Trayvon’s on top of Zimmerman. Trayvon has both his hands on Zimmerman’s face. While being suffocated, ‘John’ comes out the door, sees the fight, and says he is going to call 911, and Zimmerman — despite the fact he is being suffocated at the time — tells John “help me help me.” Zimmerman says his jacket then moved up revealing his holster, and Zimmerman says “[Trayvon] saw, I feel like he saw it, he looked at it, and said ‘you’re gonna die tonight motherfucker.'” Zimmerman then says he feels Trayvon’s hand moving down his side, and Zimmerman pinned Trayvon’s hand with his arm, while using that same arm to draw and fire the weapon.
But what are Zimmerman’s hands doing while Trayvon is trying to suffocate him? For what Zimmerman says felt like “hours”? Why isn’t Zimmerman clawing at Trayvon’s hands? That wold be anyone’s first reaction to being suffocated — but Zimmerman just lies there and takes it? This didn’t happen. Not a chance. You don’t let someone suffocate you without attempting to claw their hands off.
If Zimmerman’s arm was able to pin Trayvon’s hand against his side, Zimmerman’s arm must have already been extended downwards towards his gun. Zimmerman absolutely could not have pinned Trayvon’s hand unless his own arm was already down his side — which only makes sense in the context of a fight if Zimmerman was already reaching for his weapon.
But if someone is suffocating you, your arm is not by your side.
(And to mention it once again, because the inconsistency is so bizarre– how could Zimmerman have possibly thought Trayvon had something in his hands, when Trayvon was using both hands to grab Zimmerman’s head, and to cover Zimmerman’s mouth??)
To add to the confusion, later on in the 2/29 interview, the audio becomes really poor, but Zimmerman says something like this around the 27:50 mark, Serino says something like, “you gained wrist control basically, and you were able to basically… with… with both hands?” And Zimmerman responds “yes.” And then Zimmerman says this:
So… why would Zimmerman be worried about hitting his own hand? When Zimmerman says “I was holding his (hand)” I assume he means he’s holding Trayvon’s left hand with his right hand, like he tells the police he was. But the right hand fired the weapon — there’s no way he could shoot the hand that was firing the weapon, obviously. So Zimmerman’s left hand was holding Trayvon’s right hand in front of Trayvon’s chest?? Or was Trayvon using his right hand to go for Zimmerman’s gun, while Zimmerman used his left hand to hold Trayvon’s left hand?
But, if you arm is pinning someone’s hand against your side, you cannot draw a weapon without unpinning the person’s hand. Physically impossible. So Zimmerman’s right arm lets Trayvon’s hand go in order to grab his weapon… and Zimmerman then uses his left hand to grab Trayvon’s (left?) hand?
None of this works.
I can’t picture what he is describing. I’m not even sure what Zimmerman’s story really is, because the story he is telling here is too illogical and crazy to actually be a claim.
unitron, here is the unedited walk through. Zimmerman says Martin first disappeared [presumably for a moment or two] down the T N/S path and reappeared and seeing Zimmerman then started walking on the grass towards Zimmerman in his car, circled, headed back to the T and upon reaching it ran South down the N/S path.
Another problem I see in so many comments is the “Why didn’t he say that argument.” Zimmerman is not an announcer calling every exact movement. Yet commentors say: “aha, he left that out. We caught him! Murderer! Liar!” If he disappeared for a few seconds at the T the first time and immediately reappeared, Zimmerman could easily in that brief time been thinking of other things and thought it more important to then say Martin was coming towards him. Hardly a liar or murderer.
@Unitron –
I think the SUV parked there is on the other side of the cut-through — on the Retreat View Circleside. It isn’t the Twin Trees side where Zimmerman parked. This would be the side that Zimmerman claimed he walked to, but was afraid to walk back from. Where the SUV is positioned is where Zimmerman claims he was standing at the end of the call with police dispatch.
But as you can see, there’s a Retreat View Circle front-facing house on the left there. So this is yet another glaring inconsistency with Zimmerman’s story. If that was his location before hanging up with dispatch, WHY DIDN’T HE GIVE THEM THAT ADDRESS BEFORE HANGING UP?
“…Where the SUV is positioned is where Zimmerman claims he was standing at the end of the call with police dispatch.
But as you can see, there’s a Retreat View Circle front-facing house on the left there. So this is yet another glaring inconsistency with Zimmerman’s story. If that was his location before hanging up with dispatch, WHY DIDN’T HE GIVE THEM THAT ADDRESS BEFORE HANGING UP?”
As best I can figure, if his walk-through story and call the night before are going to fit together at all, he’s somewhere in the area of the T when he quits running 26 seconds after he starts.
Then he stands there like a knot on a log for the rest of the phone call, then when he hangs up he takes his own sweet time walking out to RVC, gettting that all important address, and walking back toward his Honda, so that he’s only managed to get back to the T when the struggle starts.
But I’m even having trouble with that, in a way.
If you accept that he was parked (regardless of which way facing) about where he said he was in the video, I wouldn’t call that being parked in front of the cut-through, I’d call it being in the middle of the block, and the nearest address would be the north side RVC house behind who’s back yard he was parked.
(but apparently Martin wasn’t considerate enough to run in that direction)
That half-way up the block parking spot would, however, better explain why 26 seconds of running only gets him as far as the T.
______________________________________________________
I’m having a lot more trouble buying Martin went to the T, turned south and disappeared from sight and then came back and circled all the way around his truck in th emiddle of the block with and I guess that’s when he’s supposed to have started running, but it just doesn’t seem to work for me in conjunction with the phone call.
The phone call works a lot better if Zimmerman stops at the clubhouse, if he does, first, and then goes east on Twin Trees and U-turns so that his truck is facing west.
Then calls up, so that during the call he’s giving a description that gets more detailed as Martin gets closer
(and he gets to freak a little about Martin’s hands and where they are and what’s in them)
and then Martin goes around Zimmerman’s truck, as in an arc maybe, giving it a wide berth
( without going all the way around it in a full circle)
During that time Zimmerman attempts to give directions in his own inimitable style.
Then Martin, once past the truck and Zimmerman’s ability to swivel his head to the left to watch, takes off running or fast walking.
At that point, of course, Zimmerman jumps out on foot, maybe first to be able to turn to the east enough to watch him, but almost immediately running or jogtrotting as he lost sight of him.
I wonder if the police ever went back with the Sunday night call on their iPod or Walkmans and a stopwatch, and tried to work out the logistics and timing of Zimmermman’s driving and Martin’s walking, and then of both of them running.
______________________________________________________
Here’s a thought:
I’d really love to know, down to the second, just when Zimmerman backs out of his own driveway and heads north up the east leg of RVC.
What if Zimmerman’s driving along and spots the just returning to the neighborhood Trayvon for the first time, in of all places, Frank Taaffe’s front yard. He keeps driving, Martin takes off across the street behind the clubhouse, and manages to get under the east facing overhang of the mailbox kiosk.
Meanwhile, Zimmerman has pulled up and parked in front of the clubhouse, where he proceeds to get out and go all around the building shining his flashlight into the windows and doors as we can *maybe* see on the clubhouse surveillance time lapse videos.
Lacking X-Ray vision, he doesn’t see Martin *right next door* at the mailboxes.
He gets back in his truck, goes down and turns around and parks on TTL facing west, which would let him see Martin again, and it’s only at that point (7:09:34 PM) that Zimmerman makes his call.
That could be two separate occasions of Zimmerman checking him out for Martin to mention to the young lady.
______________________________________________________
I still have trouble with the double co-incidence of Martin coming back into the neighborhood through the northwest corner unpaved unofficial cut-through just in time to be spotted at Taaffe’s by Zimmerman, and then his phone battery giving out just as the struggle starts.
unitron
Just to clarify.. Why are you meandering about the neighborhood to find a street address that you are supposedly already at???
I very much suspect this is where the significance of the M&I Bank Surveillance video comes into play.
Maybe Zimmerman wasn’t leaving his house to go to Target — he was returning, and saw Trayvon walking up Oregon.
Or else Taafe saw him and called Zimmerman.
And the third co-incidence that bugs me is the front gate camera being out of order that night.
unitron
Unitron,
The mailboxes are in the center of the roofed area facing outward. USPS regulations require 12×3 mailboxes by 15 inches deep. And minimum and maximum heights limit them to stacks of 10, so you probably end up with around 30 linear feet of mailboxes. There really isn’t that much shelter, and its for the mail more than any humans. There is a nice dry area 10 feet away. If Martin stood under the mailboxes for 18 minutes, it is proof that he was on drugs.
u…”…nitron, The mailboxes are in the center of the roofed area facing outward.”
Be pretty useless if they faced inward, now wouldn’t they?
” If Martin stood under the mailboxes for 18 minutes, it is proof that he was on drugs.”
Whereas if he stood under the roof protecting the mailboxes it would show he was smart enough to know how to get out of the rain.
and where are you getting 18 minutes from?
unitron
I doubt that Zimmerman’s truck is outfitted with a complete set of lights and would be flashing. The shot is on RVC. The patrol car is up over the sidewalk. In other shots it has its headlights on trying to get light down into the north-south area (and not quite getting there).
There are TV shots from the grassy knoll, roughly between the back of the two buildings facing north on RVC that just do have a shot of the body bag. This is a little bit west of the buildings to the west of the north-south building, that illustrate how close even the final location is to the T.
BTW the distance to Brandy Green’s is closer to 110 yards than 70 yards.
.
I couldn’t tell for sure if that was an unmarked vehicle with red and blues mounted underneath, or if the flashing was from other cars and just bouncing up off of the wet pavement and looking like it came from that SUV/Truck/Whatever.
It seemed to be in the same place the next morning, and wasn’t lit up then.
I’d like to know what make and model it is if anybody wants to play expert for a day.
unitron
Unitron,
If you step through the frames it is definitely that vehicle that has the lights. There were some stills that circulated a while later, and I was able to match most of the camera angles exactly with that of the TV video, but not all of them. So either the cameraman was taking his own stills, or his twin brother was. There were a few other shots, and I remember one down RVC to the south that had that vehicle in it.
That vehicle seemed to be in the same place (and not in the owner’s driveway) the next morning, which I’d expect Zimmerman’s truck to be more than I would a police vehicle.
Can anyone tell if it’s a Honda of any kind or not?
unitron
“Whereas if he stood under the roof protecting the mailboxes it would show he was smart enough to know how to get out of the rain.”
Think about if you are under a picnic shelter that is open on 3 sides. The wind is blowing pretty good. You are on the outside. The people across from you keep moving the sugar and salt and pepper, etc. over to their side of the table. You’re getting wet. Do you move, or continue to get wet?
There were much better sheltered areas 10 feet away. Drier and more protection.
“and where are you getting 18 minutes from?”
“DeeDee” said the phone hung up 3 times. Once when Martin got to the mail shed. Once when Martin started walking. Once when she heard the grass.
She called back twice, and tried a 3rd time.
The last 3 calls ended at 6:54, 7:12, and 7:16.
Do you have a link to a really good picture of that mailbox kiosk?
” “DeeDee” said the phone hung up 3 times. Once when Martin got to the mail shed. Once when Martin started walking. Once when she heard the grass. She called back twice, and tried a 3rd time. The last 3 calls ended at 6:54, 7:12, and 7:16.”
So according to her Trayvon was already under the mailbox roof at 6:54 PM? 15 minutes before Zimmerman called the police?
unitron
“Do you have a link to a really good picture of that mailbox kiosk?”
Not a really good picture.
East Pool Hall video, you are looking at the SW quarter of the mailboxes. I think the mailboxes are in a octagon shape with a long axis north-south. So you are seeing part of the west side of the mailboxes, and the SW side and can see along the south side.
The “pool hall” is outside the clubhouse walls, but under the roof. The columns on the right has a fence (vertical bars – likely steel or cast iron) that separates this area from pool deck. In the East Pool view you can see the shadow cast by this fence. I suspect it is just to keep toddlers from running into the pool area, and the pool hall might be used for those who want to be outside and view the pool, but be under sun cover.
Go to Bing Maps. It has kind of odd behavior because it has different vintage aerial photos, and as you move around it chooses a different image. There also appears to be a seam right near the clubhouse.
Locate the area, click on Birds Eye, and zoom all the way in, and center on the trailer that is where the clubhous.. Rotate Right so that you have an west facing view. You should be able to see the kiosk.
To get a north-facing view into the pool hall pan to the north so you are looking at the school. Rotate until you have a south-facing view, and then rotate to a north-facing pool. Pan gingerly to the south – you can only expose a little more than 1/2 of the pool.
You can see the fence between the pool hall and the pool, plus its shadow on the cement of the pool hall.
Part 2 “The Fight”
I just Posted my timeline comparison between the Walkthrough and the 911 calls on my Facebook Page “Insp Gadget”. The prosecution has to both Prove their theory and and Disprove this walkthrough beyond a reasonable doubt or the Jury has to find not guilty. So keep in mind if you have any theories to prove to a Jury as yourself how can O’Mara knock it down i.e. “Did you test ALL of the DNA on Martins Hand” all he has to do is raise doubt.
Since Gilbreath has said after reviewing all this material, he has no contradictory witness statements or evidence to Zimmerman’s story that makes this a circumstantial case. After looking at the timelines I agree with Det. Gilbreath and Sanford PD, if you want a conviction you are going to have to come at this from another angle, but the way you guys are going at the evidence O’Mara will be shooting fish in a barrel. If 2 competing theories are both possible then the jury must find in favor of the defendant.
You forget — Zimmerman has to actually take the stand in order to give his story, in order to put it in front of the jury.
And once he does that, his credibility is going to get shredded. And crucially, he has no explanation for either (1) the missing 1-2 minute period before the fight, or (2) how the fight moved to where Zimmerman says it started, to where Trayvon died.
If he cannot recall these basic details, his whole story is worthless. And then to make things worse, add in Zimmerman’s apparent ability to recall large numbers of details about the fight which are either incorrect, or which he later contradicts, or which diminish the reasonableness of his actions.
But O’Mara will never let this guy testify in his own behalf, it’d be suicide for the case. You rely on the ambiguity and confusion in the witnesses’ statements instead, and try to sow doubt and confusion over who started the fight based on those testimonies alone. It was dark, it was confusing, no one knows what was going on, Zimmerman was terrified and too confused to know what was happening. O’Mara has to make sure this case isn’t about Zimmerman’s version of events at all, but about that confusion and fright.
Zimmerman should never, ever have spoken to the police. That was a poor decision on his part, and it is going to cost him. Zimmerman’s story was far stronger when the case had no specific details that could be examined, no precise allegations to compare against reality.
Susan, I agree in part with your analysis at 1:44 pm with a few differences:
“You forget — Zimmerman has to actually take the stand in order to give his story, in order to put it in front of the jury.”
***True. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the decision to use Zimmerman’s statements is in the hands of the Prosecutor alone, assuming Zimmerman was Mirandized, not the defense’s. Unlike some who nit-pick his statements, I believe that, despite innocuous inconsistencies, they support the defense.
A key piece of evidence is that his keychain/flashlight was dropped right near the T intersection. It supports his story in following ways:
— where the fight began;
— that he was attacked first. If he was the aggressor, his keys would have been placed in his pocket first and never have been dropped so early in the fight;
— that he was headed back to his car. If the keys were in his hands it shows he was leaving not going after Martin;
— the prosecution must now come up with a theory of movements, by BOTH Martin and Zimmerman and do this by backtracking second by second from the T intersection to show how each person got to that location. How can they do this in any real detail (all I have seen is strange theories of running around buildings and chasings but never any specific walk backs from the now know location where the fight began, the T intersection). Zimmerman has already explained that he was just heading back to his car after looking for an address [and implicitly, milling around waiting for the police].
“he has no explanation for either (1) the missing 1-2 minute period before the fight, or (2) how the fight moved to where Zimmerman says it started, to where Trayvon died.”
***(1) explanation: he was looking for an address interspersed with milling around waiting for the police. Witnesses tend to report what they consider the most important facts so ‘milling around’ unless he was specifically asked something like ‘tell me second by second what you were doing in those two minutes,” would normally just be compressed out as not important. To a juror, it looks like he was just doing after the hangup the same things as before for the 60-90 seconds till the fight started.
(2) We now know the fight began at the T and ended 40 feet South. Zimmerman has made it clear he doesn’t remember very well because he was being beaten senseless. He will have impeccable experts confirming the memory difficulties a witness can have when fighting for his life and the effects of probable PTSD, mental shock, and a probable Grade 1 or 2 concussion. He just doesn’t remember exactly! This is a reality that most jurors will believe and indeed believe is to be EXPECTED if his head was being banged on cement.
I agree completely with the rest about O’Mara’s strategy and that Zimmerman should not have spoken to the police (but what he said is certainly not fatal to his case).
That key had a flashlight on it, and it was turned on. That shows Zimmerman is using it to look for Trayvon, not return to his car.
You say that “Zimmerman has already explained that he was just heading back to his car after looking for an address,” but that doesn’t solve the problem that (1) he never actually admits he was “milling around” — that is your attempt to improve his lies, but his claim is that time lapse doesn’t even exist; and (2) him “forgetting” street names, when he shows elsewhere he is perfectly familiar with those streets, is not believable.
Whoa whoa whoa. You are willing to concede that the ONLY witness that can testify to the fact that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, and therefore support a claim of self-defense, is suffering from memory problems that makes his testimony unreliable, incorrect, and distorted?
You have just admitted you consider Zimmerman’s testimony to be inaccurate and unreliable. Once a witness has testified to be suffering from memory problems that make their recollections incorrect, you don’t get to pick and choose which portions of their testimony can still be considered to be reliable, it is all suspect.
If Zimmerman isn’t able to “remember” what occurred during the fight, then he is not allowed to “remember” how the fight was instigated, either. This goes to the heart of the self-defense claim — how can he possibly support a claim that he was acting in reasonable fear for his life, when he cannot even remember what he was doing during the fight in the first place?
Susan said: “That key had a flashlight on it, and it was turned on. That shows Zimmerman is using it to look for Trayvon, not return to his car.”
***it was dark the flashlight was to keep from stumbling or to better see an address.
“doesn’t solve the problem that (1) he never actually admits he was “milling around” — that is your attempt to improve his lies, but his claim is that time lapse doesn’t even exist; and (2) him “forgetting” street names, when he shows elsewhere he is perfectly familiar with those streets, is not believable.
***maybe the better word is “waiting.” Witnesses tend to report actions and compress out unimportant (to them at the time details). “Waiting” would be such an overlooked detail. It seems clear that if you are trying to convey what you think is important as concisely as possible you omit unimportant (to you) details unless asked. The detective never asked how long he was looking for an address or for him to explain any time gaps where he may have simply stopped and thought or just stopped to wait for the police.
“Whoa whoa whoa. You are willing to concede that the ONLY witness that can testify to the fact that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, and therefore support a claim of self-defense, is suffering from memory problems that makes his testimony unreliable, incorrect, and distorted?
.
***In general I have no problem with that statement. As MarvinM also observed and I said earlier, major points of passing probably are more reliable then exact details, particularly when the details expected were during a life or death struggle. Persons suffering partial memory loss or confusion about their memories usually have the worst loss during the period of the most trauma. Moreover, we have what we have. In this case the dispatcher tape and where the keychain/flashlight landed and other evidence and witnesses that a jury will have to piece together.
“If Zimmerman isn’t able to “remember” what occurred during the fight, then he is not allowed to “remember” how the fight was instigated, either. This goes to the heart of the self-defense claim — how can he possibly support a claim that he was acting in reasonable fear for his life, when he cannot even remember what he was doing during the fight in the first place?”
***The jury will weigh what he does remember and judge for themselves its reliability (experts will help in this regard). That is, if his statement is introduced by the prosecution. I don’t think he will testify in any event.
“That key had a flashlight on it, and it was turned on.”
Some last thoughts on the tiny keychain flashlight being on when dropped at the T path intersection. If Zimmerman was the aggressor, he would have put his keys in his pocket before taking any physical action, not keep them in his hand where they would be dropped if he attacked (and the tiny flashlight might also break). It doesn’t add up to Zimmerman being an aggressor for him to have the tiny keychain flashlight on and the attached keys in his hand at the time of the attack he was physically instigating.
The prosecution does not say there wasn’t a confrontation, they do not seem to be contesting the middle and end of the fight. This is going to be about who started it, DD says GZ and GZ says TM. This is going to be about DD’s credibility if anything
Insp. G
You use a flashlight on your keychain to find the lock on a door, or to provide some illumination when walking. It wouldn’t be surprising that people don’t regularly walk with flashlights. His other flashlight was broken.
PeterO
“The sequence you describe at about 1 minute into the tape, fits in when Martin turned back from the T intersection of the two paths, so Martin was coming back from the East toward Zimmerman in his car, and Martin was likely on the grass not the sidewalk itself.”
Maybe I wasn’t clear, but when you say ‘the sequence you describe at about 1 minute into the tape’, I was referring to the NEN call GZ made.
GZ claimed in the re-enactment to have initiated that call while parked at the clubhouse (about 4:10 and after of re-enactment video).
If so, TM could NOT have been anywhere near the T, even on the grass, at the one minute mark.
How do I know this? This is what GZ said on the NEN call, and when he said it:
00:00:46 Z: … looking at all the houses. Now he’s just staring at me.
00:00:49 D: OK, it’s one-one-one-one Retreat View? Or one-eleven?
00:00:53 Z: That’s the, that’s the clubhouse
00:00:55 D: That’s the clubhouse? Do you know what …. he’s near the clubhouse right now?
00:00:58 Z: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.
00:001:00 D: OK. [possibly sound of putting car into reverse?]
GZ confirms at 0:58 that his suspect is “at the clubhouse” at the 1 minute mark.
TM was nowhere near the T or the grass by it one minute into the NEN call – that is, if GZ was telling the truth about being parked at the clubhouse when he called the police, and if he was telling the truth about TM being ‘near the clubhouse’ at time marker 0:55-58.
“00:00:55 D: That’s the clubhouse? Do you know what …. he’s near the clubhouse right now?
00:00:58 Z: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”
Listening to the tape the word ‘near’ seems the most important word. Zimmerman isn’t saying the suspect is exactly at the club house at that second, but instead looks to be conveying just the “near” area as a landmark for the police to find him. Remember, Zimmerman was at the club house a few seconds earlier and the purpose is to give the police general directions to get to where Zimmerman and the suspect are now.
Zimmerman said something in his interview with Singleton about waiting for the call to connect. It has been presumed that 7:09:34 was when the call connected, and 7:11:12 whatever was when the dispatcher actually pressed the button to start logging the event.
But Serino’s timeline uses 7:11:12 as the time the call was received, and said that it based on the information from Seminole County computer aided dispatch system.
There are two possibilities. Serino simply didn’t understand the explanation given by the people in charge of the dispatch system; or Seminole County has a screwball logging system that puts erroneous time stamps on reports produced from its system.
But it is at least conceivable that 7:09:34 is when the phone company connects the call to Seminole County dispatch systems, and it is then placed behind 911 calls, while it plays music to the caller?
Jimrtex — no, it’s not. Check the call logs again.
Trayvon didn’t start running 50 seconds into the phone call — he started running 2 minutes, 10 seconds into it. And we know the phone call was almost 4 minutes, not 2.5 minutes.
It definitely started at 7:09, I’m not sure why Serino would’ve had trouble figuring that out.
Serino, being a cop and not a dispatcher or telephone operator, may have looked at the times when information was sent out to the patrol cars rather than when someone first said “911, do you need police, fire, or medical?” or first said “Sanford Police Department, this line is being recorded, this is Sean”.
In other words, not knowing that all of us keyboard commandos were going to get out stopwatches and Photoshop (and listen to countless mp3s to identify Zimmerman’s ride by the sound of the door chimes on the phone call recording–he got it right, by the way), he might not have fully understood the (in our estimation at least) vital importance of accounting down to the second for when all sorts of little things occurred, not realizing that they were going to add up to big things when accumulated together.
He may have looked at it from the standpoint of not so much when did it occur, but when did it become something the police had to handle.
Martin was probably dead by 7:20 PM, but official time of death is, as I recall, 7:30 PM
Bureacracies can cause these mix ups sometimes.
And this is one of the first crowd-sourced crime case investigations–I’m sure nobody who draws a paycheck from the City of Sanford was ready for that.
I’ve just been not much more than a gadfly in all of this, but some people have really done some excellent work.
unitron
Peter O,
Zimmerman didn’t realize that he had dropped the last one from “1111”, which he said was “the best address I can give you”. Idiomatically, “the best I can give you” means that there is not an address for where he is located or if there is an address it is not representative. For example, he could have given the addresses of the units with their backs to Twin Trees, which were the closest to the truck.
The dispatcher would have typed it into his computer, and would not get a match. He might get a list of addresses 1110, 1111, 1120, etc. And figured out that it might be 1111. There was over half minute between when Zimmerman gave him “111” and the followup question asking clarification.
Zimmerman did not understand his question (is that 3 ones or 4 ones), but took it to be “what is 1111 the address of?” “Th-that’s the clubhouse. (and something else which the dispatcher is talking over). The dispatcher then says, “That’s the clubhouse? (confirming question) Is he near the clubhouse?
Zimmerman says “Yeah”. He may be answering that it is the clubhouse. Or he may be answering the second question (general vicinity of clubhouse). Or he may be more concerned about the fact that Martin is coming toward him.
It is almost certain that he didn’t give an approximate address a minute earlier, only to have it serve as an exact location when the dispatcher determines that 1111 is the clubhouse. If Zimmerman had given him 1111 originally, the dispatcher might never have asked him about the address.
Susan,
“Jimrtex — no, it’s not. Check the call logs again.”
Look at page 40 of the timeline. Call starts and 7:11:12; Martin reported running at 7:13:19 (which matches actual call).
“I’m not sure why Serino would’ve had trouble figuring that out.”
The State of Florida is prosecuting for 2nd Degree Murder based on a fictional time line?
Actually Serino’s report credits Singleton for establishing the timeline.
Martin was not dead until the paramedic called him dead.
please ARREST that paramedic immediately…….since martin was still alive until that person did something that made him dead……..your post is simply silly, he was DEAD and would remain dead if no paramedic every showed up even.
Martin was not dead as a legal concept until they pronounced him, and “legally dead” is what we were discussing here almost a year ago.
You must really have a lot of free time on your hands.
Marvin, if you sync the video walk through with dispatcher tape, you come up with the following:
1. walking distance per minute estimated for martin (at 4mph) is about 350 feet movement per minute.
2. the distance from the clubhouse to the T intersection looks to be about 450 feet. This normally would take about 1.3 minutes walking, close to the 1 minute on the tape, but not perfect
3. however, assuming Zimmerman was correct that he called from clubhouse parking (and not 15 seconds after leaving that parking), there is a hedge at the West end of the parking area that blocks him from seeing Martin once he passed Zimmerman sitting in his car at the clubhouse parking. If Martin, to evade anyone watching him started jogging for a few seconds to put distance between him and the guy in the car that would account for the extra 100 feet. During the time it takes Zimmerman to pull out and again get a visual on Martin, Martin would have been further along.
4. From the tape, is is not clear if Zimmerman continually had Martin in sight but we know from the parking layout that right after Martin passed him in the Club house lot Zimmerman had to have lost sight of Martin for 10-15 seconds as he pulled out and tried to see where Martin went before spotting him again.
The other 1 minute or so from when Zimmerman reports Martin looks at him (presumably beginning from when Martin is at the T) then fits in with Martin then reaching Zimmerman’s car, circling, going back to the T and then running.
OK, we are obviously having some trouble communicating, so what say we just take little bits at a time and try to clarify things?
Please, without going into any other points, can you answer this question – do you think that GZ was already parked near the T area by the 1:22 time marker of the NEN?
Also important for the timeline – do you believe GZ’s story that he initiated the NEN call at about the time he parked at the clubhouse?
My analysis was based on assuming that last statement was true. If that statement is false, then … well, you know.
“– do you think that GZ was already parked near the T area by the 1:22 time marker of the NEN?”
***Yes. Zimmerman says in the video he exited the club house parking area and then parked “by the sign” just before the E/W path and the police car drives that distance.
“Also important for the timeline – do you believe GZ’s story that he initiated the NEN call at about the time he parked at the clubhouse?”
***Largely, yes. Could he have called just after leaving the club house parking and forgot that detail? Possibly. For the times to fit with a calling from the club house, we would have to know if Martin ran or jogged a short distance after passing Zimmerman parked at the clubhouse. We don’t know that one way or the other. Under either explanation, the rest of the walk though up to the disputed fight, looks OK time and distance wise and fits what generally is said on the tape.
I looked again at the distances and maybe someone has a better estimate, but the distance from the clubhouse parking to the T intersection looks to be about 360-80 feet (I had said 450 feet) so that distance, with a little fast walking or a few seconds of jogging could take 1 minute.
You keep saying this, but it’s not true. And you keep making bizarre “explanations” for how what Zimmerman said is plausible… but your explanations are completely illogical. Like redefining “near” to mean “on the opposite side of me from the club house, a football field away.”
Here is what Zimmerman said during the call:
So. Giving Zimmerman all benefits of the doubt, let’s assume that Trayvon starts walking past Zimmerman’s car right when Zimmerman’s call connects. We know from Zimmerman’s testimony and call transcript that Zimmerman was moving “leisurely”, which is what Zimmerman found to be “suspicious.”
Now, let’s see how far Trayvon had to walk in order to do what Zimmerman says he did. The orange block labeled GZ is where Zimmerman says Trayvon circled around him, the green arrows show Trayvon’s general direction of movement, and the map scales are laid out over the ground Trayvon had to cover.
Just to make this clearer, I’ve even had Trayvon walk just to the T and turn immediately around — not “disappear” out of sight for several seconds like Zimmerman claims, heading south towards home.
I’ll generously deduct 50 feet from that total, to presume Trayvon took a more direct line at the first turn. We’re now at 550 feet and Trayvon hasn’t even circled the car yet, just gotten beside it!
Average adult walking speed is 4 ft/sec. That’s 137.5 seconds — it would take 2 minutes, 17 seconds, for Trayvon to make that loop.
And yet one minute into the phone call, Zimmerman says “Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.”
That’s not possible. It didn’t happen.
Here is the actual dispatcher call:
and the full video walk through:
You said:
“Here is what Zimmerman said during the call:
0:00: [Zimmerman parks his car at the clubhouse, makes call to police.Zimmerman’s testimony is that he is ahead of Trayvon when he parks at the clubhouse, and Trayvon walks past his car after the call has started.”
***The above comes from the video walk through. However, in that walk through Zimmerman is vague about the actual start of the dispatcher call and he only says the club parking is where he “stopped to call.”. The description of Martin walking past the car is an observation but, as related in the video, could be before the call is actually made (also is there a delay in start time for dispatcher calls to connect through?)
Also, the call tape does NOT describe Martin’s relative position to the car for the first 30 seconds. It only gives an general outline of the situation of a suspicious person in the area without specifics of his position relative to the car Zimmerman is in.
“0:48: “Now he’s just staring at me.”
(0:57, Dispatcher: “He’s near the clubhouse right now?”)
1:00: “Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.””
***I explained the use of the word ‘NEAR’ in my related posts to MarvinM. As for the staring that fits in with Martin, by that time being between Zimmerman in his car and the TT intersection looking in Zimmerman’s direction. The rest fits in with Martin backtracking from the T, circling Zimmerman’s car, returning to the T and then running
“was moving “leisurely”, which is what Zimmerman found to be “suspicious.””
***That was when Zimmerman first spotted him at 1440 RVC, by the time Martin passed the clubhouse he was clearly aware of Zimmerman in his car so he acted differently.
Regarding your map, I cannot read it since it is too small. Let’s break out two distances: 1) from the club house to the T; and 2) from the T to where Zimmerman was parked and double that distance. I have had trouble finding an exact aerial with good distance measures. But here is a link that shows the distance from the T to the car with a distance grid:
It looks like about a little over 120 ft from the car to the T. Let’s say 260 ft for a complete circle (and circling Z’s car) from when Martin starts towards Zimmerman from the T. At 4ft/sec that would take 65 seconds (and Martin is taller than average, particularly considering the average would include a woman’s stride length also). So we are well within a reasonable range from the 1 minute mark until Martin runs South down the N/S path.
Click through on the map for a larger picture.
Zimmerman is very, very adamant in the walk-through that he was on the phone with police dispatch while parked at the clubhouse, and that he had visual on Trayvon at that time, and describes Trayvon as “walking around looking at houses.”
Zimmerman then clearly states he lost visual, and drove after Trayvon up Twin Trees Ln.
Either you are conceding that Zimmerman is too confused and uncertain to correctly describe even basic facts about how he shot Trayvon, or you concede that Zimmerman is not telling the truth when he says that Trayvon “circled” his car. Those are your only options at this point.
Susan. The old link is gone. Here is another link to the video:
I listened to it again and what happens looks to be partially jumbled with later events. Here is what I heard (centering around the 5 minute mark and only referring to the video):
Zimmerman pulled into the parking area to stop and call the dispatcher (I don’t know if this was with a speed dial number, direct dialing (if he had the number in phone memory) or it was directed from 911?).
He says “then he walked past me” (after pulling into the parking area) and kept looking at the car. In saying ‘then’ he looks to be referring to his parking his car, not his getting on the phone. So Martin’s walking past could easily be before he is actually connected to the dispatcher.
He says he told the dispatcher he lost sight of Martin and also says Martin had turned down Twin Trees (by the time of the interview he had obviously checked the street name but on the dispatcher tape he didn’t remember it and explained he doesn’t normally use that street).
Looking at the parking area, there is a hedge blocking off East end, the street direction to Twin Trees, so Zimmerman, from the parking area, had to lose sight of Martin as soon as he walked by (Zimmerman had parked right near the hedge at the East end of the area).
He says he told all of this to the dispatcher. But the dispatcher tape does not contain that part described in the video. On the dispatcher tape he only describes the general reason he called and refers to Martin’s earlier movements around 1440 RTV before the call began.
It is clearly a case of a memory jumbling of what he said later to the dispatcher and also saw later, since we can see he had to lose sight of Martin at the parking area.
Lets say we have to account for an extra 30 seconds to get Martin to the T. That can easily be explained by delay any combination of the following delays:
getting the actual non-emergency number; actual dialing of the number; connecting to a dispatcher once through; Martin’s jogging/running a little after passing Zimmerman in the parking area, when out of sight, to put some distance between them; bad memory since he really called 20-30 seconds later just after pulling out of the parking area and going in the direction Martin disappeared in.
Any minor jumbling is innocuous and from a visual of the parking area it is clear Zimmerman lost sight of Martin while there for some amount of time.
Jim, listen to the Feb. 29, Pt. 3 interview. And then tell me if you stand by your comment.
Zimmerman is very clear about his story. And it cannot be reconciled with reality.
Susan,
You write:
“Jim, listen to the Feb. 29, Pt. 3 interview. And then tell me if you stand by your comment.
Zimmerman is very clear about his story. And it cannot be reconciled with reality.”
I can not find a comment that I wrote that you might be referring to. I don’t want to guess what you are referring to.
When I see a comment I want to respond to, I scroll back using the light gray outer shading, until I see “Reply v” and click on that.
I did listen to the Feb 29. Pt 3 interview. But I can not locate the comment which
you might wish me to stand by. Perhaps you could quote part of my comment.
From Susan: “Zimmerman’s story was far stronger when the case had no specific details that could be examined, no precise allegations to compare against reality”..
I definitely agree with that. I would guess that the prosecution has gone over these same details and more, plus they have access to experts.
One thing I noticed during the Feb 29 #3 audio was that when Zimmerman went through the sequence of events to match the dispatcher tape, he never mentions Trayvon circling the vehicle.
But what really struck me was that there was no time slot available for Zimmerman to move his vehicle from the clubhouse to Twin Trees Lane and end up parked BEHIND Trayvon on Twin Trees Lane, which is what Zimmerman claims. In fact, I was surprised that ANY of the scenario on the phone with the dispatcher took place at the clubhouse.
Here’s where the detectives are playing back the dispatcher tape and questioning Zimmerman about it (Feb 29 #3 audio):
1) 19:37 – 19:26 (11 seconds): Dispatcher tape is playing where Zimmerman says, “He’s here now. He’s just staring, looking at all the houses”. Tape is stopped. Zimmerman insists to detectives that he’s still at the clubhouse. (This is when the detective reminds Trayvon that he told her previously that he moved to Twin Trees Lane because the dispatcher instructed him to move to a point where he could continue to see Trayvon. Never happened.)
2) 18:29 – 18:22 (6 seconds): Dispatcher tape is playing where Zimmerman says, “Now he’s coming towards me. He’s got his hand in his wasteband”. Tape is stopped. Zimmerman says he’s THINKS he’s still at the clubhouse. Obviously, if Trayvon is coming towards him, Zimmerman is not in the process of moving his truck to a point where he can park on Twin Trees Lane BEHIND Trayvon.
3) 18:16 – 18:04 (12 seconds): Dispatcher tape is playing where Zimmerman says, “He’s a black male. He’s got a button on his shirt…late teens. Something’s wrong with him.”. Tape is stopped. Zimmerman says he THINKS he’s still at the clubhouse. Since he does have to move SOMEtime, it’s possible that he’s moving while describing Trayvon.
4) 17:51 – 17:35 (16 seconds): Dispatcher tape is playing. Starting at 17:41, Zimmerman says, “He’s coming to check me out. I don’t know what his deal is”. Tape is stopped. Zimmerman says he doesn’t remember where he (Zimmerman) is. But this time slot – before 17:41, whenTrayvon came to check him out, plus the previous time slot – appear to be the only ones so far available for Zimmerman to drive over to Twin Trees Lane and park behind Trayvon. This would give him and Trayvon 22 seconds from the time Zimmerman says Trayvon was coming towards him at the clubhouse to the time where they would both be on Twin Trees, with Zimmerman parked BEHIND Trayvon and Trayvon “coming to check (Zimmerman) out”. This just doesn’t seem possible
5) From 17:28 – 17:13 (15 seconds): Zimmerman says, “Send an officer over here”. Dispatcher says, “We got him on the way now. Just let me know if he does anything else.” Zimmerman says, “These assholes. They always get away”. Tape is stopped, and the detective asks about the asshole statement. Could THIS be the time slot where Zimmerman starts moving from the Clubhouse to Twin Trees?
6) From 16:55 – 16:42: (13 seconds): Zimmerman gives directions to dispatchers. Tape is stopped.
Zimmerman tells detectives: “I was parked where I can see him now.”
Detective: “You’re definitely not at the clubhouse now.”
Zimmerman: “No”
Detective: “So you’re ahead of him?”
Zimmerman: “No, I’m behind him.”
Detective: “Are you driving slowly or something?”
Zimmerman. “No. I pulled over and stopped.”
If Zimmerman was driving over to Twin Trees Lane during #5 and #6, he had 28 seconds up until the time the tape was stopped to make the move. But what happened? At #4, Trayvon was supposedly coming TOWARD Zimmerman to check Zimmerman out. If Zimmerman started moving at that time, how could Zimmerman get up to Twin Trees Lane and park BEHIND Trayvon? Again, this doesn’t seem possible.
It’s like Twilight Zone, or those movies where the kung fu guys are flying around in the sky.
I can’t figure anything except that Zimmerman lied about all of this. The story is logistically impossible. I think Zimmerman was headed to the store and spotted Trayvon. By the time Zimmerman called the dispatcher, I think either he had to have already been parked at Twin Trees during the entire conversation with the dispatcher, or else he made up all the stuff about Trayvon coming toward him, in which case, he must have followed Trayvon in his vehicle.
Another curiosity is that at the pause between #1 and #2, the detective reminds Zimmerman that he told her previously that the dispatcher TOLD him to move his car from the clubhouse to where he could continue to see Trayvon. The dispatcher never said anything of the kind.
Basically, Zimmerman really has a problem with the truth. If he also has a bad memory, OK. But then why not just say he doesn’t remember any of it? Why make up a story to fill in the blanks? Either way, he has a problem with the truth.
“But what really struck me was that there was no time slot available for Zimmerman to move his vehicle from the clubhouse to Twin Trees Lane and end up parked BEHIND Trayvon on Twin Trees Lane, which is what Zimmerman claims. ”
Exactly!!!!!
Zimmerman must have had earlier “confrontations” with Trayvon on Trayvon’s journey home. George seems to have decided after laying in wait “watching” Trayvon near the clubhouse (actually at the mail shed), that he’d call police dispatch and have some *fun* with his gun.
He probably called the police for the same reasons the Texas lunatic that tried to rely on “self defense” as he videotaped his “confrontation” with his neighbors then yelled “I’m standing my ground”, “I feel threatened”, or something like that. Texas dude thought he’d get his killing of a neighbor on video saying all the buzz phrases. Jury didn’t buy it. Texas “standing my ground” guy was convicted!
Did Taffe call Zimmerman to alert Zimmerman to a black kid walking through the shortcut behind Taffe’s home? I read somewhere that Taffe’s son was murdered several years ago and that Taffe’s son was part of a hate group. Also read somewhere that Taffe’s daughter was pissed that Taffe was using his dead son’s murder to help Zimmerman pretend to show how compassionate Zimmerman is by releasing a call from Zimmerman made 2 years prior but pretending the call was made AFTER Trayvon’s murder. Supposedly, Taffe’s son had been killed several years prior to Zimmerman’s “condolences for the loss of your son” call which catapulted Frank Taaffe to the news interview/spokesperson set.
Hi CommonSense. I didn’t know all that stuff about Taffe.
My take on Zimmerman is a little different. I see him as someone who really does want to do good. But his motives are a little off. People want to do good for different reasons – maybe because they really want to help people, but maybe also because they really want to be a hero. I think for most people, it’s a little of both.
For Zimmerman, I think he really wanted to be a hero, and also wanted to help people. But the hero thing was so intense that he ended up killing the very person he was supposed to protect – a resident at the complex. I think he ALSO has a snap threshold, which exacerbates his hero syndrome into something uncontrollable, plus he has ADHD and is on drugs. And he may also be a pathological liar, a condition that leads to bad judgement, because such people lie to themselves.
I think it was a fatal combination and caused Trayvon’s death.
Oh, thanks Susan. You did it better than I did, and in a much simpler form.
PeterO. Look at Susan’s timeline just above. There doesn’t even appear to be an extra minute for Trayvon to have gone from walking toward Zimmerman at the clubhouse (1:00) to where Zimmerman says Trayvon started running (2:08).
There’s only 20 seconds between the time Zimmerman said Trayvon was walking towards him at the clubhouse (1:00), and when Zimmerman says Trayvon was coming to check him out (1:20).
There’s only 48 seconds from then until he says Trayvon started running and Zimmerman immediately exits his SUV (2:08).
Where’s the extra minute?
I said, when leaving the timeline thread, that I might come back, after Zimmerman’s interviews are released. I am having second thoughts about that since I don’t think I can match most of the posters here in due diligence. However, I have listened to, watched and read the most recently released evidence and have some thoughts.
1. I was under the impression that the interviews and walk though took much more time that the released material indicates. Since this all comes from O’Mara, is it possible that he held back a large amount of what he has?
2. How do all these inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s accounts add up to guilt of second degree murder or manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt? Based on what we have up to now, can somebody post an imagined prosecution closing argument to the jury?
3. This is addressed to Susan, in particular. Do you think there is no possible combination of shoves, chasing and rolling on the ground that could have had the fight starting at the T and migrating to John’s lawn? Why didn’t Martin reach Brandy Green’s apartment in the period between Zimmerman leaving his Honda and the confrontation?
4. Serino and Singleton seemed to be aware of all the contradictions yet Serino in his capias wanted only to indict for negligent homicide because Zimmerman could have broken the fatal chain of event by not leaving his car or identifying himself to Martin. Could that be interpreted as meaning he felt that Zimmerman’s medical condition, rather than an intention to deceive showing consciousness of guilt, was behind the contradictions?
Prosecution closing:
Zimmerman would have this court and jury believe that the skinny, unconfrontational super teen Trayvon Martin decided to run first, then circle back to punch George Zimmerman at the Tee he’d run in an effort to get away from George Zimmerman’s stalking via car and on foot. Super-teen Martin then mustered up enough strength to not only knock George Zimmerman down with one punch, but that same one-punch landed George Zimmerman 40-45 feet away! Does this sound like a cartoon/fiction/b-rated movie?
If Zimmerman’s “story” does sounds like a cartoon/fiction/b-rated movie, then you should, do what you know is right. Do what you’d do if this was what your son’s killer gave Zimmerman’s “story” to you as the answer to all the unanswered questions reasonable people, including the police, have asked.
By now we know for sure that Zimmerman has been willing to lie about some of the most important events of this incident – including Trayvon trying to smother him and repeatedly punching him in the face.
But personally, I think there’s still more to come.
And the fact that Trayvon didn’t have a key to Brandy’s house and was reportedly (by DeeDee) afraid of a crazy man chasing him, brings up all kinds of possibilities for why Trayvon didn’t make it into his house.
Regarding: “Why didn’t Martin reach Brandy Green’s apartment in the period between Zimmerman leaving his Honda and the confrontation? ”
***DeeDee, in her prosecutor interview, said Martin reached the apt after he started running and was breathing hard. But nothing was said about if Martin went into the apt. That would have taken about 10-15 seconds from the just after 2 minute mark in the dispatcher tape, given the distance involved, if Martin started running from the T path intersection as Zimmerman says.
Ricky, addressing your points in order:
(1) Yes. I suspect O’Mara is trying to trickle out these bad facts, so he has time to spin it as it comes out.
(2) These inconsistencies show that Zimmerman is either lying, or has no ability to correctly recall the sequence of events leading up to his decision to shoot and kill an unarmed child. It looks very bad for him. At best, he is too forgetful and confused to ever have been allowed to have a weapon in the first place. More likely, though, he is going to be interpreted as lying. Zimmerman has precisely one reason to lie about what happened — and that is because Zimmerman believes the truth will not paint him in a kind light.
(3) I absolutely think there’s a combination of shoves and chasing that could have had the fight move from the T to where Trayvon was shot. But Zimmerman has adamantly insisted that this did not happen. Zimmerman is the one claiming the fight didn’t move, and that he went down in a single punch — but that doesn’t match reality. The question is, why does Zimmerman think it’s important to change the facts to indicate that Zimmerman was, from the very first second of the fight, losing and pinned down? Probably because at times during the fight he was running around and able to get away, but decided to keep engaging in the struggle.
As for why Trayvon didn’t make it home — well, you’re assuming Zimmerman is telling the truth about where Trayvon ran. I no longer believe a word of his story, there are just too many holes. My personal belief is that Trayvon ran straight across the T — he didn’t turn south towards home. Zimmerman was hot on his heels, and there is nowhere to hide down that long, narrow, blank corridor. Which is why Zimmerman also ran across the T to RVC — he was going the same direction as Trayvon.
(4) Serino was pretty brave in general for filing an affidavit recommending arrest, when it was clear his superiors had made a decision not to pursue an investigation, and did not want to be contradicted. So it’s not surprise that Serino only recommended the more palatable manslaughter rather than murder.
Manslaughter may also be a reasonable charge here. Murder 2 is the appropriate charge under the state’s theory, but manslaughter is the more appropriate charge if Zimmerman’s recounting of the fight is somehow assumed to be accurate, when no other parts of his story have turned out to be true.
Susan, jimrtex: some of the call time mysteries solved (hopefully):
The call logs: ( https://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/george-zimmermans-911-call-history1.pdf ):
The tape:
From the logs:
19:09:34 – connection time
19:11:59 – SUBJ NOW RUNNING …
From the tape:
Zimmerman says Martin is running at 2:07 (the tape is 4 minutes 30 seconds long). The tape shows the dispatcher starts talking immediately.
What the above means is that:
1. subtracting the 2:07 (where Zimmerman says Martin is running on the tape) from the log’s elapsed time (from connecting at 19:09:34 to 19:11:59 where it says the suspect is running — 2:25 elapsed time), the connection time shown on the log began 18 seconds before the dispatcher tape begins.
2. assume a reaction time for when the dispatcher begins typing (to mark the beginning time of where the log says the suspect is running) of about 2 seconds, the log shows the call connecting 16 seconds before the tape begins. We do not know the delay in when the connection time is marked from when Zimmerman dialed, or first connected, or if there was a dial and/or connection delay in his phone service and phone, or any preliminary waiting for a non-emergency call, or any delay routing to a non-emergency operator.
The above would very reasonably account for allowing for an extra 30+ seconds to the time within which Martin had to reach the T intersection from the club house (even ignoring the other factors I previously mentioned in my earlier posts) as described by Zimmerman in his walk through.
Peter O,
So you’re saying that we can take the time of the REMark about meeting at the mailboxes 7:13:12, subtract the connect time of 7:09:34 = 3:38, then play the recording for the half-minute or so from 3:08 to 3:38 and hear the dispatcher and Zimmerman agree for the meeting to take place at the mailboxes?
When you check this out be ready to pause at 3:38.
When I first started looking at the case, I had read that Sanford had released a bunch of tapes and other information, so I had looked at them. I don’t have a television signal, and my inclination is to do a little bit of independent research. I had happened to look at the calls that Zimmerman had made, going back to 2004. The first call was reporting children not restrained in their seats. It was a pickup truck, so I suspect that they riding, perhaps even standing in the bed.
And then I started reading about 43 phone calls to police this year. I said wait a minute, they go back to 2004. I even read a blog where someone said that he had made 43 calls on New Years Eve. Some newspaper columnist was wanting to make some point about Walled Communities, and said that as soon as the Zimmerman’s moved to RTL he had started calling about everything, including someone doing a wheelie on a bike. It was actually a motorbike, and it was on I-4, 10 miles south in Altamonte Springs, and besides doing wheelies, it was weaving in and out traffic and speeding. Was it doing 66 mph? Or 90?
So I had some familiarity with the call logs. I had also listened to Zimmerman’s call, and looked at a Google map, and figured that the “cut through” was Twin Lakes simply by listening to the call and the map. On some other blog there was a discussion where someone had presented a scenario similar to Susan’s, but had started their timeline at 7:11:12. I had then given the timeline just like you had starting at 7:09:34.
I think it was on Susan’s blog (here), where I became convinced that the east-west sidewalk was the cut through. It made sense, that Zimmerman would know the name of the streets.
When the evidence dump came out and I saw the official timeline, I thought it really strange that it started at 7:11:12. But it said they had contacted Seminole County (Computer Aided Dispatch.)
Wendy Dorival, who coordinates neighborhood watch for SPD was interviewed by FDLE since she had the most contact with Zimmerman, particularly when Zimmerman was reviving the group. She mentioned that Zimmerman was the NW coordinator, not captain. But then in Zimmerman’s first interview with Singleton, he said he was NW coordinator.
This business about self-appointed neighborhood watch captain appears to be based on a press-release by the National Sheriffs Association, which is the official owner of the National Watch (proper noun program). They decided that because the RTL NW had not registered with them, they were some renegade group, with somebody with the NSA suggesting that if Zimmerman had tried to register it is likely that they would have been rejected.
But Wendy Dorival said that she knew of no guideline from any law enforcement organizations about registering. The NW signs at RTL were there at least as early April 2011. Zimmerman was working with the SPD, the presentation in September 2011 was by the SPD and they used materials from the Neighborhood Watch program. If Dorival believed that it was important to register, the RTL NW program would have been registered.
The official Neighborhood Watch guidelines suggest that sometimes the coordinator is elected, and other times it is just the first person who volunteers. “self-appointed neighborhood watch captain” is a media fiction.
And it turns out that Zimmerman really did not know the name of Twin Trees. Maybe he visualized it as a cut-through, and this made it harder to remember the name.
It was Zimmerman in his interview who said that said he was waiting for the phone to connect. Maybe Serino was correct on the timeline. Things that are simply not-believable turn out being true.
What are referred to as “call logs” are actually “event logs” and may continue after the call ends. Look at the February 2 call, in which Zimmerman calls back after realizing he had given the wrong address. And look at the very last event log. Did Martin actually start running at 7:20?
And maybe the problem is how reports are generated (in this case on March 9). Maybe there is a software bug.
“Did Martin actually start running at 7:20?”
If he did, it was “toward the light” and he was trying to get St. Peter to open the gate.
unitron
jimrtex, you are correct about the 3:38. I think the problem with the posted logs is that, somehow, notations before 7:11 were not included. But the connect time at the top correctly(?) says 7:09:34. So Serano must have quickly used the time of the first entry and not the time the call “connected” at the top of the page.
Peter O,
“jimrtex, you are correct about the 3:38.”
So what does that imply about the “mailbox” meeting place?
All other events are logged after the information is presented on the recording. You can also hear the typing by the dispatcher.
I had thought that 7:09:34 was the start of the call. The first officer is dispatched at 7:11:17, 5 seconds after the “event” was created.
Logically, you would expect the dispatcher for a NEN to act as triage. 911 calls get priority, you have to figure out whether to dispatch fire, EMS, or police immediately, and try to determine the need. So the dispatcher is listening to Zimmerman, gathering information and then finally decides to act, apparently when Zimmerman sounds threatened. That is, even though Zimmerman did not report circling – the dispatcher detected the increased threat.
If we look at the first REM, which would apparently be at 1:38 the information was available to the dispatcher as follows:
0:06 Break-ins (S21S)
0:09, 0:17, etc. Male, referred to as “guy” and “he”.
0:25. 0:44 Walking around area
0:29, 1:09 Black male (tentative at 0:29; definitive at 1:09)
0:32-0:38 Last Seen Wearing.
0:55 1111 Clubhouse (in header)
1:13 Late teens.
The dispatcher tells Zimmerman that an officer is on the way, though the dispatch does not actually happen until 1:43, and is not en route until 2:39.
Greatest threat (based on stress in Zimmerman’s tone is about 1:17-1:30). It might have been earlier, but Zimmerman is reporting details, which may calm him. So plausibly the dispatcher finally decides to actually report something around this time. 1017 is “conduct investigation”.
The next REM is at 9:11:59, which should be 2:25 into the call.
2:07 Martin reported running.
2:08 Dispatcher asks which way is he running (effectively, where is he going, where did he go).
2:13 Zimmerman reports that Martin heading towards other entrance (after exiting truck to make sure).
2:18 Zimmerman clarifies this is back entrance.
Zimmerman starts following in direction Martin had run. By this time, Martin is likely turned south. While the dispatcher is entering the REM into the system he also notices that Zimmerman is moving.
It was more important to dispatcher to get running direction entered, than to ensure safety of citizen. Though Zimmerman clearly moved for about 20 seconds at a fast shuffle, the dispatcher does what? He asks for Zimmerman’s name.
The next REM is at 9:13:12 which should be 3:38 into the call.
2:36 George
2:43 Zimmerman
2:51 Phone number.
2:53 Dispatcher asks if he wants to meet with officers when they get out there.
(in this case it is factual that an officer is enroute, since 2:39).
3:18 After dispatcher asks for meeting location, Zimmerman tries to describe his location.
3:38 Dispatcher decides that Zimmerman doesn’t live in the area and asks for apartment number, then address. Zimmerman gives street number.
Dispatcher REM that Zimmerman will meet (1056) at mailboxes. He then asks Zimmerman if he wants to meet with officers at mailboxes.
At 3:53 Dispatcher will dispatch second officer (T Smith; Ayala was dispatched first).
Last REM is 7:13:41, which should be 4:07 in call. Officer will call (1045) Zimmerman before meeting (1056).
3:50 Zimmerman requests call
3:52 Dispatcher says “No Problem”
3:58 Zimmerman verifies police have phone number.
4:04 Dispatcher sets meeting place.
7 seconds of dead air, call may have been disconnected.
So it is plausible that this is the timeline, other than when the dispatcher logs ones REM before he has said anything.
But Singleton apparently had constructed another timeline with the assistance of the Seminole County dispatch system. How could they mess up something so essential to the case.
I don’t think it matters when the dispatcher starts the tape. Trayvon would still have to get from the clubhouse to the place where he started running in the 48 seconds from when Zimmerman says Trayvon is coming to check him out (1:20) to when Trayvon started running (2:08).
Or, the only other time Trayvon could have left the clubhouse was in the 20 seconds from when Zimmerman says Trayvon is walking towards him at the clubhouse (1:00) to when Zimmerman says Trayvon is coming to check him out (1:20).
The problem is that if Trayvon left the clubhouse at 1:00 right after walking towards Zimmerman, how did he happen to also be coming to check Zimmerman out at 1:20? Where was Zimmerman? Half way between the clubhouse and where Trayvon started running? Did Zimmerman stop in two places? If so, how could Trayvon have time to go back and check Zimmerman out and still make it up to the cut through in time to start running at 1:20? Remember, Zimmerman claims to have parked BEHIND Trayvon.
Zimmerman would have been better off just saying he was at Twin Trees the whole time just watching Trayvon walk toward him from wherever. He blew it. Who knows how much he made up when he was talking to the dispatcher even.
Obviously, you did not read my post. Martin was coming from the T path intersection area back to Zimmerman sitting in his car, not the clubhouse area which he came from earlier before the tape began.
Well, you’re probably right Peter, since I really didn’t understand your post.
But I thought I understood this part: “The above would very reasonably account for allowing for an extra 30+ seconds to the time within which Martin had to reach the T intersection from the club house (even ignoring the other factors I previously mentioned in my earlier posts) as described by Zimmerman in his walk through.”
That’s the part I was addressing, since I thought you were saying that Trayvon had enought time to reach the T from the clubhouse.
I’m sure he did have enough time, since he got there. I just don’t think he had enough time according to Zimmerman’s story, for the reasons I stated above. There was no available time slot.
I also pointed out how Zimmerman’s story was off (but in an innocuous way). He said on the walk through that while at the club house area, had told the dispatcher that Martin had disappeared. The tape, for at least the first 30 seconds, does not contain that, so Zimmerman did not remember correctly. However, from the club house parking area layout and the blocking hedge on the East end, Zimmerman had to have lost sight of Martin once he passed in back of Zimmerman in his car. So Zimmerman remembered something that he believed he had told the dispatcher, which indeed happened (Martin moving out of sight), but, in reality, he didn’t tell the dispatcher even though he said he did. That type of innocuous discrepancy is what witness memories are all about … particularly those traumatized by events. Just look at the variance among the other witnesses in this case alone.
Here is a partial transcript of the interview from February 29th, Pt. 3:
[0:00][Zimmerman: Hey we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy.]
Why suspicious?
GZ: It was raining, he was looking into the houses, looking at me, not walking quickly to get out of the rain, not like he was trying to go home.
[Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something.]
On drugs, why?
GZ: Oh, because he kept looking around, kept shifting where he was looking.
Could you see the color of his pants?
GZ: I don’t remember…
[0:48][Now he’s just staring at me.]
Can you pause it for a moment? Okay, when you explained it to me, you said you had pulled over, initially at the clubhouse, correct?
GZ: Yes.
Okay but it seemed so fast, and then I thought you told me, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, I thought you said they asked you can you still see him, and you told them you couldn’t, and you asked, and they said well get to where you can see where he’s at. And you told me it was at that point you moved.
GZ: Yes ma’am.
Now you’re saying he’s coming up to your car, does that mean at this point of the tape you’re already on Twin Trees Ln?
GZ: Um no, I was on, I called when I was at the clubhouse.
Okay but he’s walking up to your car now, right, on the tape?
GZ: Yes ma’am.
‘Cause you’re saying he’s walking up. You’re talking about when you’ve already left the clubhouse and now you’re around the corner?
GZ: No ma’am.
But you’re still at the clubhouse when he does this?
GZ: Yes ma’am, hmm-mm.
Okay.
[0:57][ Zimmerman: Dispatcher: OK–you said it’s 1111 Retreat View? Or 111? Zimmerman: That’s the clubhouse… Dispatcher: That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the–he’s near the clubhouse right now? Yeah, now he’s coming towards me. Dispatcher: OK. Zimmerman: He’s got his hand in his waistband.]
Okay pause it right there. Where are you at now? Are you still at the club house?
GZ: I think I’m still at the club house, yes.
[Zimmerman: And he’s a black male. Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks? Zimmerman: He’s got button on his shirt, late teens. Dispatcher: Late teens ok. ]
Have you moved yet?
GZ: I don’t think so.
You’re still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I think so.
On Retreat View Circle?
GZ: Yes Ma’am. I don’t remember even saying that it [illegible].
[Zimmerman: Something’s wrong with him.]
What’s that statement mean?
GZ: I don’t know.
[1:20][Zimmerman: Yup, he’s coming to check me out, he’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what his deal is.]
Where are you at now, still at the clubhouse?
GZ: I don’t remember…
[Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away.]
That statement. “These assholes.” What’s behind that?
GZ: People that victimize the neighborhood.
Didn’t you tell me that a week earlier they’d made an arrest?
GZ: Yes ma’am.
So not all of them get away.
GZ: No.
[Zimmerman: When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left.]
What’s happening now? Are you guys walking now, is he walking?
GZ: No, I was parked where I could see him now.
So you’re definitely not in front of the club house anymore.
GZ: No, not at this point.
So you’re ahead of him?
GZ: No I was behind him.
Okay. So he walked to your car, and walked… and you were behind him?
GZ: Yes sir. When I was at the clubhouse, he walked…
Are you driving slowly or something?
GZ: No, I pulled over and stopped before I called.
[2:08][Zimmerman: Actually you would go past the clubhouse. Dispatcher: So it’s on the lefthand side from the clubhouse? Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh you go straight in, don’t turn, and make a left. Shit he’s running.]
Okay. Full sprint, full on flight, jogging, trotting, describe the running.
GZ: I don’t remember… I just, ’cause I was on the phone. It happened so quickly.
Um, I understand that George, but like I said… if it was a bicycle theft I’d say okay, but it’s kind of important. Was he running as to evade you, to get away from you, maybe he got tired of getting wet in the rain… what kind of run was it? I mean, it sounds like he’s running as to get away from you.
GZ: I don’t know why he was running…
But what kind of run was it? … Can’t say?
GZ: I don’t remember…
Okay.
[Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?]
Okay, is that you getting out of the car?
GZ: Yes.
Okay.
So as soon as he runs, you’re getting out of the car and following.
GZ: When he says which way is he running…
[Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards?]
At that point you’re out of the car?
GZ: I think so.
Okay. So you basically jumped out of the car to see where he was going.
GZ: Yes sir.
That’s not fear.
GZ: Yes sir.
That’s one of the problems I have with the whole thing.
[ Zimmerman: The back entrance…fucking [unintelligible]]
What was that?
GZ: Punks.
He wasn’t a fucking punk.
[Dispatcher: Are you following him? Zimmerman: Yeah Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.]
What went through your mind [when the dispatcher said that]?
GZ: He was right.
So you should have stopped and gone back to your vehicle.
GZ: I still wanted to give out an address.
[Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name? Zimmerman: George…He ran.]
You said he ran again. Okay. This is because you couldn’t see him?
GZ: Correct.
Okay at this point he has to be hiding from you.
GZ: I don’t know where… I don’t see…
Well the law of the physics says he’s hiding from you at this point, he could not have made it home, and came back to attack you in that time. So what your account is, you’re at the T, correct, you’re looking down that way, down the passage? Where you at?
GZ: Once he told me not to follow him — and I wasn’t following him! I was just going in the same direction he was.
That’s following.
GZ: Well look, … long gone.
You basically wrote it off.
GZ: I was on the other side, I was on RVC at that time.
The other day — and again, these are the questions we are going to have to explain — the other day you told me that you got out of the car because dispatch was asking your location and you wanted to orient yourself. You did not tell me you said ‘oh shit he’s running’ and then got out of the car and went that same direction at the same time. You see what the problem is?
GZ: Yes ma’am.
And I asked you, did you look for him? And you told me no.
GZ: [Intelligible.]
You told me the reason you got out of the car was to get an address.
GZ: Yes.
But you decided to get the address a fraction of a second after you said ‘oh shit he’s running,’ and then it sounds like you’re running to.
GZ: [silence]
Was it a fast run?
GZ: No! It was windy.
[Dispatcher: Alright George what’s your last name? Zimmerman: Zimmerman Dispatcher: And George what’s the phone number you’re calling from? Zimmerman: [#]]
Where are you at now?
GZ:On Retreat View Circle.
PeterO. Review the transcript of the 2/29 interview, above, if you’re too lazy to listen to it.
And tell us again about how Trayvon wasn’t at the clubhouse when the phone call began.
You don’t get to have it both ways — you don’t get to dismiss Zimmerman as being “confused” or “a little off” everytime there is an indication that he did not tell the truth, and then take his word as the gospel for everything he says that is convenient.
If he cannot be trusted to tell major sequences of events with any accuracy, then his whole testimony is unreliable. The end.
Question: If Zimmerman left the clubhouse to park near the cut-through at Twin Trees, was he parked on the north side of the street, but facing the cut-through? If so, he’s parked facing the wrong way on the street.
Or did Zimmerman make a U-turn on Twin Trees to park correctly on the north side of the street – facing the clubhouse?
Either scenario could be interpreted as a threatening gesture toward Trayvon.
I think he parked facing the wrong way, in order to shine his headlights on Trayvon and illuminate his path.
No wonder the kid started running. I’d assumed before that Trayvon had simply seen Zimmerman staring at him from a parked car, which is super creepy, but less overtly threatening.
But by Zimmerman’s own admission, he was driving slowly behind the kid as he walked home, and had been following him since Taafe’s house — over 200 yards away. Who wouldn’t have been freaked the hell out by that?
Some observations about the Zimmerman statements and the case:
1. I think many agree Zimmerman should never have given any statements. The reason is that giving such statements is a no win situation. Assuming a suspect is Mirandized, the prosecutor has the option of using a statement at trial or not. This alone, creates problems for the defense because, at least for a while, it has to spend valuable resources to counter the statement without knowing if it will ever be used. The defense, assuming the defendant does not testify, cannot introduce the statement and if the defendant does testify, the statement can throw the defendant’s testimony off (including innocent defendants) by finding “contradictions” — look what happens in this blog alone;
2. The Zimmerman statements, on balance, are good for Zimmerman. So it is unlikely, but still possible, the State will use them. So all is back to square one. As if there were no statements at all. And O’Mara has to waste time trying to explain (innocuous) contradictions in the statements that, likely, may never have to be explained at trial;
3. The hard evidence, on balance supports Zimmerman;
4. The witnesses, on balance, support Zimmerman;
5. DeeDee is a complete disaster for the prosecutor.
Why do TV reporters keep interviewing Crump as if he is the one conducting the actual prosecution in this case? Are they that dumb? Or that cunning? Which is worse?
They need to fill air time and can probably count on him saying stuff that’s “good copy”.
which doesn’t answer the questions.
correction, which doesn’t answer all of the questions.
That’s like asking why Sarah Palin or Alan Dershowitz get so much air time.
They are reliable when it comes to saying bizarre shit that gets good ratings.
Is that another way of saying the answer to the last two questions are ‘Yes?’
One other interesting statement by Zimmerman in the video. About midway, he says the dispatcher asked him if he wanted to cancel the call and he said he told the dispatcher emphatically no. But we know from the tapes he never said that. Is there a chance there was a later call?
If it did not happen, Zimmerman saying that doesn’t help or hurt — just another innocuous discrepancy. But it does show Zimmerman was having some cognitive problems, likely a result of the trauma, PTSD, a concussion or a combination of those. I previous pointed out he looked disoriented at some parts of the video walk though when he was trying hard to remember details to be helpful.
He could have, at the time, misinterpreted “Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?”, as “Do you still want us to send a car to check out that guy you can’t see anymore”.
Or he could have misremembed it later.
unitron
Could be a drug affect as well. He could also be just generally delusional.
I think the Zimmerman video walk-throughs might be good for Zimmerman as long as certain facts are not known to the general public – like the location of Trayvon’s body 40 feet south of the T.
However, the jury will know these facts, and the audios are terrible for Zimmerman, in my opinion..
Anyone know for sure which side of Twin Trees Lane Zimmerman’s car was parked, and which direction it was facing? I think it was parked on the north side of the street, with the headlights shining into the cut-through. Is that correct? If so, it’s parked on the wrong side of the street, after the same guy (Zimmerman) was parked and watching Trayvon at the clubhouse.
Could this strange in-your-face parking maneuver be what caused Trayvon to start running?
I’m finally starting to feel a little sympathy for Zimmerman, because I think he’s a little off. Did other people catch his Feb. 29 #3 audio?
It seemed like Zimmerman started whispering his answers at a point where his story just wasn’t coming together. I felt a little bad for him, sort of, or something (not sure), but I do think he’s dangerous.
I have absolutely zero sympathy for George Zimmerman. He’s a con artist, liar, cheat, murdering piece of $#@! in my opinion. I read your other post above and agree that he has seems to need to be the hero.
Did you hear his jailhouse calls? In one of them, he discusses some inmate’s clothes being stolen. What that was about I don’t know. It sounded staged to me.
At the bottom of page one of Zimmerman’s calls to report things to the police, it looks as though Zimmerman reported someone not having his 2 kids in their car seats. Since that was reported 8/12/2004, Zimmerman would have been 20 years old at the time.
Zimmerman police call: https://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/george-zimmermans-911-call-history1.pdf
Anybody else find this strange? Wasn’t he fired once for his obsessiveness and constant reports of trivial matters to the HR department?
I know what you mean — that bizarre, little-kid whisper Zimmerman affects every time he realizes he’s being caught in a lie.
“i don’t know………”
No sympathy whatsoever. To me he sounds like a child that got caught lying when his voice gets low and when he answers questions with no sir or yes mam. When he can’t or will not explain a question with a full answer he goes to that mode of low voice or no sir, or I can’t remember. Anyway who has dealt with children or adult children for that matter understands what I’m talking about.
CSFC
“At the bottom of page one of Zimmerman’s calls to report things to the police, it looks as though Zimmerman reported someone not having his 2 kids in their car seats. Since that was reported 8/12/2004, Zimmerman would have been 20 years old at the time.”
Were they in the bed of the pickup?
Where’s the M&I bank surveillance?
Not released yet — coming in the next evidence dump, I think.
@CSFC,
The state has not released it as of yet. I’m not sure if you posted something to the effect of is there any evidence left out out on the table there that we haven’t seen. Witness 4,7 & 10 of the first discovery dump has not been released either. I believe in an earlier post Peter addressed a question to Susan and I about a anon call being submitted. In answer to Peter yes its possible, look at witness 9. She was an anon call and she got on the witness list. O’mara is pushing for her statement to remain closed, but that’s not going to happen IMO. Since you posted about the surveillance, I figure I knock out two birds with one stone. So IMO, the anon witness call that Serino was talking about in his interview with GZ is one of those witness numbers. The state purposely held back 4, 7, & 10. To date those statements and or 911 calls have not been released. Axiom usually does an excellant job of retaining audio from the witnesses. It is not on their website or anywhere is else that I know of. If I am wrong can someone please post a credible link for those numbered witnessses.
Thanks Loree
Despite my request, still nobody has attempted a prosecution narrative that is PROVABLE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, especially for second degree murder. It has to be proved, beyond a reasonable doubt that Martin didn’t attack Zimmerman and the latter shouldn’t have feared disaster if he hadn’t fired his gun.
Do Z’s lies prove the prosecution case? Was everything he said on the tape with the dispatcher a lie, including “the” and “and”? Did he fake his inability to give the police coherent directions? Why? And Peter O, why do you keep speculating about PTSD when there is excellent documentation that Zimmerman has ADHD/ADD and was taking medication for them? They can be used to explain away some of his absurdities, as apparently Serino believed. And isn’t it evident by now that Zimmerman gives DeeDee real competition in a low IQ contest? Neither can tell a coherent story. The difference is that Zimmerman isn’t as shy in displaying stupidity. It is depravity, not stupidity, that is important to prove for a second degree murder conviction.
Ricky, the question is, if Zimmerman had a justifiable reason to shoot Trayvon, why did he lie about it?
You have two people in a fight. One shoots and kills the other. The living person then tells a series of complicated falsehoods about how and and where the fight occurred. The jury has a right to draw an inference that other claims the accused is making are also false, and to draw assumptions about why the accused chose to lie in the first place.
I agree that Zimmerman is more dumb than malicious. But he is responsible for his decisions. And he chose, on the basis of unreasonable assumptions, to chase down a kid in his neighborhood, while knowing that he was armed and that the kid was running away from him. When the kid dies under those circumstances, you are probably liable for manslaughter.
Susan,
I haven’t had time to look closely at the new evidence. I’ve skimmed this thread and am wondering what is your explanation as to why TM didn’t make it back to the house.
-Mark Martinson
No one knows, and we never can no, now.
It’s always a possibility that Trayvon did deliberately lay in waiting in order to attack Zimmerman. But this is a not so subtly racist claim — why on earth would a 17 year old kid try to use his bare hands to kill someone in his stepmother’s neighborhood, on a whim? That just doesn’t happen. Kids returning home from a candy run do not randomly decide to commit murder with their bare fists, in the middle of quiet, crowded residential neighborhoods that are crawling with dog walkers and people sitting out on their patio. Doesn’t happen.
Also why is it assumed that if Trayvon came back, he did so with malicious intent? Why not curiosity or concern, or some mixture thereof? Zimmerman was behaving erratically, Trayvon had every reason to assume Zimmerman was a threat to the neighborhood. (Which, well, he was.)
But the problem is, we know now nothing about Zimmerman’s testimony regarding Trayvon’s movements can be relied upon. We don’t know when and where exactly Trayvon’s path took him, and we not know whether Zimmerman pursued him somewhere he’s not telling. We don’t know how close he was to home, or if Zimmerman cut him off from his path, and there is no way to answer that.
We also have several consistent eye-witness accounts that speak of a conversation or argument that occurred before any fight went down. Which would suggest that, whatever reason Trayvon was at the T, the encounter didn’t start with him throwing a punch out of nowhere.
Susan,
Brandy Green was not Trayvon Martin’s stepmother. We don’t know that Tracy Martin was even dating Brandy Green. When Tracy Martin called the police, he paused for a very long time before saying it was his girlfriend’s place, and then had to ask the address. He also said that Martin had last been seen around 8:30 pm and was probably wearing khaki shorts.
His trip to the 7-11 was unlikely to be a candy run. Martin was very erratic at the 7-11.
The witness who reported anything definite about the exchange said there might have been 3 sentences spoken.
So “what’s your problem”, “I don’t have a problem”. “You have a problem now”.
The only other witness recalled hearing something 10 minutes earlier, which might have been someone else entirely.
“And he chose, on the basis of unreasonable assumptions, to chase down a kid in his neighborhood, while knowing that he was armed and that the kid was running away from him”.
Not only has that not been proven BRD, Susan, but IMHO is more likely false than true. “chase down” is a real stretch. I would agree that it is more likely than not that Zimmerman went over to RVC in order to see if he might catch a glimpse of Martin, rather than get an address. Zimmerman’s description of the final struggle is also inaccurate as Serino and Singleton pointed out to him. Some of it could be prevarication but some things like thinking Martin was smothering him could have been a result of his nose injury.
You have to convince me that Martin’s actions were a result of Zimmerman having his gun out early on and Martin was the one screaming before I would find Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter, beyond a reasonable doubt. But as I have said previously, I would also vote to acquit Martin, had he had killed Zimmerman.
Manslaughter is a lower standard than murder 2. You don’t have to have intent or purpose, just act recklessly.
It’s too bad Florida doesn’t recognize imperfect self-defense, because Zimmerman is clearly guilty of that. Zimmerman knew that police were on their way and only moments from arriving, and Zimmerman also knew that neighbors had seen the fight and had announced they were calling 911. Zimmerman’s injuries were not at all life threatening, and his claim of being smothered is bogus (as we know from the 911 call with “help” in the background, if that was Zimmerman he was still breathing). If Zimmerman had chosen to wait even 30 seconds before firing, Trayvon would be alive today.
Zimmerman just doesn’t have a valid claim for reasonably fearing for his life, even ignoring the fact that he provoked the encounter. Trayvon could not have physically reached Zimmerman’s gun — it was on Zimmerman’s back hip, underneath Zimmerman’s backside and under Trayvon’s legs, if you buy Zimmerman’s story. Also you cannot draw a backwards facing weapon with your non-dominant hand while simultaneously slamming someone’s head into concrete.
“why on earth would a 17 year old kid try to use his bare hands to kill someone in his stepmother’s neighborhood, on a whim? That just doesn’t happen. Kids returning home from a candy run do not randomly decide to commit murder with their bare fists, in the middle of quiet, crowded residential neighborhoods that are crawling with dog walkers and people sitting out on their patio. Doesn’t happen.”
I don’t think TM wanted to kill GZ. I think he felt disrespected and wanted to teach him a lesson. Based on his twitter handle, he obviously is particularly sensitive to being disrespected.
“Also why is it assumed that if Trayvon came back, he did so with malicious intent? Why not curiosity or concern, or some mixture thereof? Zimmerman was behaving erratically, Trayvon had every reason to assume Zimmerman was a threat to the neighborhood. (Which, well, he was.)”
You really think there was nothing suspicious about TM’s behavior; that GZ had no reason to call police that night?
“But the problem is, we know now nothing about Zimmerman’s testimony regarding Trayvon’s movements can be relied upon. We don’t know when and where exactly Trayvon’s path took him, and we not know whether Zimmerman pursued him somewhere he’s not telling. We don’t know how close he was to home, or if Zimmerman cut him off from his path, and there is no way to answer that.”
GZ reports that TM took of in the direction of Brandy’s house. GZ lost sight of him and for the rest of the dispatch call doesn’t appear to be following him. Even DD says TM was “right near” the house and then, 2 minutes later, sees GZ.
There is no evidence that GZ wanted to capture or detain TM until the police arrive. Even assuming that GZ tried to find where TM was, that doesn’t make him the agressor and thus forfeit any right to self defense.
-MM
Trayvon was walking on the path one would expect him to take to get home, on the phone with a girlfriend. Zimmerman says he was suspicious because he was “walking leisurely” and “looking around” — there is nothing to indicate Zimmerman’s suspicious were rational or justified.
Answer this: if everything happened in a manner that supports Zimmerman’s claim that he had a right to kill Trayvon, why did Zimmerman think it necessary to lie about how that shooting occurred?
If Zimmerman lied about whether Trayvon circled his car, if Zimmerman lied about his motives for getting out of his vehicle, if Zimmerman is unable to even describe how Trayvon was “running” away from him, if Zimmerman is unable to remember how he pursued Trayvon in his car, how can Zimmerman be relied on to accurately describe how the fight began?
Also I hope to god no attorney on earth ever tries to make the argument that “based on the victim’s twitter handle, I think we can assume the victim was the aggressor.”
Scratch that, I hope no attorney on earth ever even starts an argument with “based on this person’s twitter handle…”
not only that it was NOT Trayvon Martin’s account….these folks are basing the whole defense on zmans LIES and hackers posting fake info about Martin including pictures at were NOT Martin.
Also I hope to god no attorney on earth ever tries to make the argument that “based on the victim’s twitter handle, I think we can assume the victim was the aggressor.”
Scratch that, I hope no attorney on earth ever even starts an argument with “based on this person’s twitter handle…”
** I don’t either. But if I’m trying to figure out what happened (say on a preponderance of evidence standard) then stuff like this can be helpful.
-MM
Mark,
BDLR did ask “DeeDee” whether she txt’ed with Martin. Why not ask if she twittered.
There is evidence that GZ tried to DETAIN TM. A witness told Serino that “Zimmerman tried to detain Trayvon before he fatally shot him,” and recounting an argument prior to the shooting. In fact, GZ told detective Singleton on the night of the shooting that “It felt like he was hitting me with bricks, so, I remember, once I shot him, I holstered my firearm and I got on top of him and I held his hands up because he was still talking,” “And I said, ‘Stay down. Don’t move.’ ” A neighbor with a flashlight came out and asked if I wanted him to call 911.” GZ said he asked that person to help him “restrain Trayvon.” GZ goes on to say that, “I don’t remember how I got on top of him I’m sorry but I got on his back and I moved his arms apart because when he was repeatedly hitting me in the face and the head I thought he had something in his hand so I moved his hands apart .”
Based on GZ’s very own statements, he tried to detain TM. So there IS both DIRECT and CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence that he tried to detain TM BEFORE and AFTER he shot the boy.
“A witness told Serino that “Zimmerman tried to detain Trayvon before he fatally shot him,” and recounting an argument prior to the shooting.”
Which witness was that?
unitron
Susan,
“Zimmerman’s injuries were not at all life threatening, and his claim of being smothered is bogus (as we know from the 911 call with “help” in the background, if that was Zimmerman he was still breathing). If Zimmerman had chosen to wait even 30 seconds before firing, Trayvon would be alive today.”
The injuries are not the standard. The question is whether GZ was in imminent fear of serious bodily harm or death.
-MM
Reasonable imminent fear.
And if he provoked the encounter, reasonable imminent fear + exhaustion of all non-deadly means of escaping the situation.
“non-deadly means of escaping the situation.”
Struggling unsuccessfully to get up while a) having your head bashed onto concrete, and b) someone is trying to grab your holstered gun while you are down. Either works a) or b) works.
“As for why Trayvon didn’t make it home — well, you’re assuming Zimmerman is telling the truth about where Trayvon ran. I no longer believe a word of his story, there are just too many holes. My personal belief is that Trayvon ran straight across the T — he didn’t turn south towards home. Zimmerman was hot on his heels, and there is nowhere to hide down that long, narrow, blank corridor. Which is why Zimmerman also ran across the T to RVC — he was going the same direction as Trayvon”.
Sorry but I don’t follow you here, Susan. I don’t see that it makes a bit of difference whether Martin made a right turn at the dog walk or RVC. In either case he could have made it home long ahead of Zimmerman. You don’t think he made a right turn at RVC? Then what did he do then? Where was Martin when Zimmerman left his vehicle, still talking to the dispatcher?
Zimmerman’s own testimony makes it clear why Trayvon was running. Trayvon felt pursued because he was being pursued, by some creepy dude in a Ridgeline, for 200+ yards.
So Trayvon freaks and runs away, heading to the cut-through from Twin Trees Lane. If he runs south down from the T, there is nowhere to hide, he’s right in the middle of a big walkway, where he will be seen. He probably heard Zimmerman get out of the car — so maybe he runs straight across the T, where it looks like there’s more cover. If he does that, and he still hears Zimmerman running after him, turning left to the north provides more cover and places to duck away than turning right to the south does.
Which would also explain why Zimmerman went across to Retreat View Circle, and later came up with the story that he was “looking for a street sign.” He followed Trayvon.
The fact remains we just have no idea what could have happened, and no way to establish it precisely one way or another. But there is no reason to presume the “Trayvon went back to whoop Zimmerman’s ass” theory is the likely explanation, beyond biased assumptions about what black 17 year old kids do when they have been chased through the neighborhood by an unknown creep.
“Trayvon felt pursued because he was being pursued”
All we can establish is that Martin, for a while, was being “followed” not “pursued.” Pursued is a word carrying the unproved assumption the following was “to follow in order to overtake, capture, kill, etc.” (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pursue). In short, you need evidence to support the extra baggage of the word “pursue” and simply using that word without more is a fallacious circular “proof.”
@Ricky –
“Where was Martin when Zimmerman left his vehicle, still talking to the dispatcher?”
Somewhere near his home — backed by forensic and witness statements.
We have “DeeDee”s testimony that Martin was “right by” his Dad’s place. She could only know that if (1) Martin told her. (2) Crump told her. (3) She made it up.
When Tracy Martin filed his missing persons report, he did not know the address of Brandy Green, and he hesitated for a long time before identifying her as a girl friend.
Why would “DeeDee” refer to the location as being Tracy Martin’s? Why was Brandy Green’s son, Trayvon Martin’s little brother?
Susan,
If GZ lied then of course we can’t take him at his word on how the fight started. But on the other hand I don’t think lying is sufficient to believe that he started the fight. The most I’d be willing to say is that GZ doesn’t want to admit that he wasn’t heading back to his truck and that in fact he was trying to find where TM was.
But he knew that police were on the way so I doubt he wanted to start a fight.
-MM
Unless he wanted to detain Trayvon and play the hero.
Or do you really think that Zimmerman, if he encountered “that asshole” and “fucking punk” while on foot, would have just said “Oh no good sir, please carry on, don’t mind me.”
He was armed, he was pissed off, and he was convinced Trayvon was a thief. He wouldn’t have let Trayvon walk away.
He was holding his car keychain with its attached mini flashlight on. And it dropped where he says he was first attacked.
He could not have been an aggressor while he was holding his mini flashlight that was on, and presumably in his right hand. How does he punch, grab, or push. It makes no sense.
@MM –
Texas dude took a video recorder AND called the police before gunning down his neighbor. He was convicted. Zimmerman’s calling the police in advance of his murderous actions doesn’t change a thing.
@PeterO –
Would you be in favor of a gun law that allowed 3-yr olds to carry before it could be statistically proved that that might not be a sound thing to do?
Susan,
I think it is more accurate to say that GZ “followed” TM rather than “chased” him.
In any event, if looks like (for better or worse) the prosecution is stuck with DD’s statement; and in her statement she says TM was “right near” the house and then 2 minutes later TM encounters GZ.
GZ did what he was supposed to do. He called police dispatch because he saw someone acting suspiciously. Who just hangs around in the rain?
-MM
Someone walking home from the store.
Note that the path Zimmerman says Trayvon took before the “chasing” or “following” occurred is 100% consistent with the path Trayvon would have taken to… walk home from the store.
And DeeDee’s statement is mostly useless for figuring out locations. DeeDee had no idea what the neighborhood looked like, she was just on the phone with Trayvon. She may have tried to interpret what he was saying while looking at a map later, but there is no way for her to have any idea of actual locations.
Think of all the trouble we had trying to figure out Zimmerman’s location and movements based on his 911 call — and we even had the benefit of a map to examine. We have general ideas and impressions of movement, but no way to determine exact locations without the walk-through.
Susan,
Did Martin tell “DeeDee” that he was ***right by*** his Dad’s house? Did she hear him banging on the door, and yelling “hey little brother Chad open the door, I’ve got skittles for you:”
Or is the part about him being right by his Dad’s house something she made up or was coached by Crump?
Did Martin tell “DeeDee” he was “going to run from the back”? Or was she presaging her story? “No he never told me he was going to run from the back, but I had rehearsed enough that I knew the next part was where I supposed to say I could hear Martin running.”
Did Martin actually say that he had put his hoodie up? And if so, did he say why? Or was this just a good story line?
How long did she and Martin talk while he was under the mail area? 30 seconds. 1 minute? 5 minutes? 15 minutes?
Did he mention any other calls?
I think a lot is being made of the comment “right near the house,” when this is a very vague comment. In fact, since Trayvon came from OUTSIDE the community, he could have said that he was “near Brandy’s place as soon as he got into the Retrea. And, certainly, once he turned into the walkway that went from N. to S. between the town houses, it would be totally normal for him to say that he was “right near Brandy’s house” as he was basically on the “home stretch.”
Now. . .if Dee had said that Trayvon had told him he was IN Brandy’s house. . .that would be a more precise location, and it would obviously mean something! But, I know by experience (because I live in a somewhat remote golf community, about 6 miles from the closest stores) that anytime I get withing 2 miles of the gates of my community I call my husband to tell him I am “close to home,” and when I turn into the front gates of the community, I say “I’m home!”
Everything is relative. . .and I do NOT believe that the defense can rest it’s case on such a “relative” comment!
Sadanie,
“DeeDee” claims that Martin told her he was “right by” not “righjt near” his “Dad’s house”. Remember when BDLR thought she had said that Martin has said that “he {Zimmerman] was right by his ass [Martin]”.
Sorry, I fail to see your point. I don’t see what “right by” or “right close,” or “right near” makes for a difference. . .everything his relative versus the distance Trayvon had come from the store. Compared to the store, anything within the Retreat could have been “right by.”
Why, do you think that the common “right by his ass” met that Zimmerman was actually TOUCHING Trayvon’s behind? I’m pretty sure that he wasn’t. . .that Zimmerman was probably no less than 10 to 20 feet away, or Trayvon would not have still be talking to his girlfriend, but would have focused on Zimmerman!
You are splitting hair, and I don’t think it’s going to work for the defense in a court of law!
But, if that amuses you. . .go for it!
Sadanie,
Presumably “DeeDee” was only reporting what she could hear. That is all she will be permitted to testify to. You certainly don’t think she was coached do you?
So Martin must have told her he that he was “going to run from the back”, “that he was putting his hood up”, and that he had run – because she could hear the wind, and his hard breathing. He also must have told her he had “lost the man” and that he was “right by his Dad’s house”.
For whatever reason, Martin had conceived a plan to evade Zimmerman, had communicated that plan to “DeeDee”, had successfully executed that plan and had reached where he was staying.
“by” means immediately adjacent to.
“DeeDee” never said he that “He was by his ass”, she said that Martin said “he was right by his Dad’s house”. BDLR, perhaps realizing that meant Martin had reached the place he was staying, interrupted her, and asked when you [“DeeDee”] said “he was right by his ass”, you took that to mean that the man [Zimmerman] was right behind him [Martin]?
“DeeDee” demonstrated that she knew that “No” is pronounced NO and not nuhuh, and immediately went through the sequence again.
BDLR, and perhaps you, are exhibiting a form of racism, that of low expectations, that “DeeDee” was a stupid, uneducated, black child, who he is depending on to convict Zimmerman, and has to paste a few words into a narrative that the jury will believe.
“It’s too bad Florida doesn’t recognize imperfect self-defense, because Zimmerman is clearly guilty of that”.
Susan, I think you are admitting that the manslaughter case is weak under Florida Law and you won’t even touch with a 10 foot pole how to justify the second degree murder charge. Your speculations that Martin had no way to get at Zimmerman’s gun seem to be just that. Then how could Zimmerman get to it? I can’t fathom how one can be sure of the details, including position of the holster, when two people are wrestling on the ground in the dark. The witness John did seem to be sure that within seconds after he saw them on the concrete, he heard the shot, so Zimmerman might have been justifiably panicked.
I agree with you that gun rights shouldn’t extend to the Zimmermans of the world, but that is for legislative action. If the standard is guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, Zimmerman walks.
I have no bias one way or the other and I do not own a gun.
The only way to evaluate a statement such as: “I agree with you that gun rights shouldn’t extend to the Zimmermans of the world, but that is for legislative action.” would be to examine statistically valid studies that examine if, after gun carry laws are passed, crimes and murder rises or falls.
There is sure to be enough data for this type study. And until I saw it and believed the statistical validity of the study, I would keep an open mind on the issue.
@Ricky –
“Then how could Zimmerman get to it?”
Your logic is flawed. How does Zimmerman get so close to Brandy Green’s house if Trayvon Martin was near there? Surely since Trayvon Martin knew where Brandy Green’s home was, so did Zimmerman.
See the problem? Only George Zimmerman knew where the Zimmerman’s gun was. Trayvon Martin could only see it if Zimmerman made its location known.
Jimtrex:
You say: “Your speculations that Martin had no way to get at Zimmerman’s gun seem to be just that. Then how could Zimmerman get to it? I can’t fathom how one can be sure of the details, including position of the holster, when two people are wrestling on the ground in the dark.
I mentioned before that we need to observe closely the body language of Zimmerman while he does the walkthrough at the moment when he demonstrate with his gesture what happened when he grabbed his gun. He CLEARLY demonstrate that he reached for his gun NOT to the front of his waistband, not even to the side, BUT TO THE BACK of the hip. Why don’t you go back and observe that moment on the video of the reenactment. . . It would even be nice to watch that part in slow motion, but I am certain that this gesture clearly demonstrates the postition of the holster and therefore of the gun. Since I don’t know anything about guns, I don’t even know if it is possible or common to carry a gun in an holster at the back of the hip bone. . .but that is where Zimmerman reached out during the walkthrough.
And, I do not believe that Trayvon saw the gun at that time, but even if he did, I do not believe that he could have grabbed it as he would have had to reach across Zimmerman’s chest with his right hand, while he was pinning him, beating him, and smothering him. . .
By the way, even if he had tried to reach the gun (if he had seen it), then Zimmerman says that he was successful at grabbing Trayvon’s wrist and stop him. . .HOW? First, if he was able to grab Trayvon’s wrist and stop him to do anything. ..why didn’t he do it while Trayvon was beating him? or when he was smothering him?
Second, HOW could Zimmerman at the same time Stop Trayvon’s reach by grabbing his wrist. . .AND grab his gun? Obviously, he couldn’t grab Right wrist with his LEFT hand. . .so he could only have done it with his Right hand. . .but he CERTAINLY couldn’t, at the same time, grab his gun with his right hand. . .so how did he do it?
And I do not believe that in that position, Trayvon could have seen the gun at that moment. I am even doubting that Zimmerman could have grabbed the gun in that location during the struggle.
I guess, basically, what I am saying is that Zimmerman had his gun out of the holster BEFORE Trayvon jumped on him, and that it is the site of the gun at that time that triggered Trayvon’s attack.
In fact, didn’t Zimmerman father tell CNN during that interview that Zimmerman had told him that Trayvon saw the gun directly after the confrontation, when Zimmerman reached for his PHONE? I will have to find that interview again to make sure, but this is what I remember at this time.
And even that would not have made any sense, as obviously the two would have been facing each other, and if the gun was hidden in its holster, on the back side of Zimmerman’s hip, INSIDE his waistband. . .HOW could Trayvon see a gun, even if Zimmerman pulled his jacket aside to “get his phone?”
Sadanie,
“Jimtrex: You say: “Your speculations …”
“Ricky Jimenez” != “Jimrtex”
Yes, Jim, Ricky, or whomever you want to be.
And Sadanie = Danielle
“But there is no reason to presume the “Trayvon went back to whoop Zimmerman’s ass” theory is the likely explanation, beyond biased assumptions about what black 17 year old kids do when they have been chased through the neighborhood by an unknown creep”.
You know very well Susan that the defense doesn’t have to prove its explanation of Martin’s actions. If it is at all reasonable that Martin was the aggressor and that Zimmerman fired when in fear of his life and could not extricate himself, Zimmerman is not guilty.
There is no evidence that Martin was the aggressor. DeeDee said it was Zimmerman that was the aggressor. The HOA lady said she heard something like “what are you doing..” (which confirms DeeDee’s account of what she heard).
Also, Zimmerman could not identify what was supposedly (per him) his own voice when Serino played the 9-1-1 calls which captured the screams for help and the gunshot. Check the part 3 tape. I saw a news article on it, but didn’t save it or bookmark it since I’d already heard about and listened to the recorded statement.
http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/06/21/zimmerman-states-screaming-911-call-doesnt-sound-me-audio/ In response to CFSC couldn t reply to you your post
@Loree –
Thank you. I read a news link earlier, but couldn’t locate it again. It wasn’t the AxiomAmnesia.com link that I had seen, but instead it was a mainstream newser. I thought it was OrlandoSentinel, but I don’t know.
Anyways… Thanks again! I’ll save it this time.
Youre welcome!
Susan,
DD reports TM as saying he is “right by” the house. It doesn’t matter whether DD is familiar with the complex or not. In addition, she does not say that TM reported that he couldn’t get in the house or that he was afraid of the pursuer finding out where he lived.
I don’t find DD credible. Why didn’t she come forward earlier if she heard what she said she heard?
But the prosecution finds her credible given that she is referenced in the affidavit.
-MM
Come forward to who? How would she know where to begin? She’s in Miami. The murder occurred in Sanford. SPD said they couldn’t crack the phone to get call history. She’s 15/16 and probably didn’t know how.
What she says is this crazy white guy watching him from his car is now getting real close to him as he makes his way towards home — after he had already run from and lost the guy on his way home.
Zimmerman is the one that admits he was “following” Trayvon Martin by foot and intimidating/harrassing him with his car before “he ran” — and lost him.
The “he ran” phrase coupled with an affirmative response to a question by dispatch “are you following him?” is a 100% confirmation of Zimmerman’s “chase”. Contrast that with Trayvon Martin’s “running” (per DeeDee, Serino and the other officer) and Trayvon Martin’s apparent belief that he lost the guy and you come up with a boy that had run and didn’t know he was still being preyed upon — ripe for capture.
“So Trayvon freaks and runs away, heading to the cut-through from Twin Trees Lane. If he runs south down from the T, there is nowhere to hide, he’s right in the middle of a big walkway, where he will be seen. He probably heard Zimmerman get out of the car — so maybe he runs straight across the T, where it looks like there’s more cover”.
On a moonless, rainy night the visibility down the unlit dogwalk couldn’t have been very good. Martin had been living there for 7 days so it is most reasonable that he took that route. Where is your evidence that Zimmerman could run to first base without collapsing? Your speculations, Susan, are only relevant if Martin was on trial. You have to disprove that Martin doubled back to confront Zimmerman to establish a basis for the latter’s guilt.
My speculations are really for my use in trying to figure out what the hell happened, and reconstruct the sequence of events. Of course speculations can’t be introduced as evidence in a trial — but George’s speculations can’t be either.
I think you’re off on the legal standard here, Ricky, or at least how it is applied. You don’t get to shoot someone, get caught in a lie about how it happened, and then say “well you don’t know exactly what happened, because I shot the only witness other than myself, therefore you can’t convict me.”
If an impeached defendant’s denial of his guilt was sufficient evidence to raise reasonable doubt, we’d never convict anyone.
Zimmerman needs to be able to produce some affirmative evidence, other than his own statements, as to why he acted in self-defense. May he can succeed in that, but it won’t be through the introduction of hypothetical speculation and his own testimony alone.
Ricky Jimenez on June 24, 2012 at 12:55 pm said:
“Where is your evidence that Zimmerman could run to first base without collapsing?”
Zimmerman’s own words. Zimmerman *said he made it all the t way across the dog walk.
“You have to disprove that Martin doubled back to confront Zimmerman to establish a basis for the latter’s guilt.”
Why would anyone have to disprove your theory?
“Zimmerman needs to be able to produce some affirmative evidence, other than his own statements, as to why he acted in self-defense”.
There is enough to make self defense reasonable with stuff outside his own statements. He has his injuries, his call to the police and knowledge that they were on their way, the misstatements where he had no reason to lie, Martin’s failure to go home with timings correlated with the dispatcher and 911 calls, Martin’s 3 suspensions from school and youtube subscriptions to MMA and other videos of physical violence, John’s testimony that the fight had moved to the concrete just before the shot. It adds up to reasonable doubt for me.
Texas guy “standing his ground” had videotape. Texas guy was… convicted as he should have been. Vigilante’s hiding behind the law as they interpret it is a problem.
Back to the dictionary wars: the definition of ‘lie’ (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie):
“lie
…
verb (used without object)
5. to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, AS WITH INTENT TO DECEIVE.
…”
Many commentors use the tactic of constantly transforming inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s memory, without ANY explanation of “an intent to deceive” into ‘lies’ — a word that implicitly adds the improper baggage of “with intent to deceive.” At minimum, the accuser must provide an explanation of Zimmerman’s motive to have lied every time he is accused of telling a particular ‘lie.’ I rarely see that.
So we are back to the Crump tactic of constantly using the word “pursue” (with its baggage of ‘”to follow in order to overtake, capture, kill, etc.) instead of the neutral word of “follow,” in order to “prove” Zimmerman was out to “”to overtake, capture, kill, etc.” Martin.
That will not work at trial. Misusing English words does not create proof of murder.
What does “he lost the guy” mean? (DeeDee relaying Trayvon Martin’s description of events)
What does “I lost sight of him” mean? (Zimmerman)
It was said above that Zimmerman parked the wrong way “in order to shine his headlights on Trayvon and illuminate his path. No wonder the kid started running.”
Here is the problem with the above:
FROM THE ONSET, Zimmerman freely stated he was watching Martin and vice versa. He admitted they saw and stared at each other then he drove and parked in front of Martin after he first saw he was acting suspiciously at 1440 RVC (remember there are many black living in the complex and Zimmerman only made 3 police calls in the last 12 months — the complex had 400 incident reports in that time period).
Zimmerman, on the tape, AT A TIME HE HAD NO MOTIVATION TO “LIE,” said the suspect was coming to “check me out.” So, it is clear that after Martin WAS WELL AWARE for a while that Zimmerman was watching him (they were ‘staring’ at each other from the onset), Martin, somehow, not only did not run but instead deviated from a normal “path” to approach Zimmerman in his car in such a manner that Zimmerman mentioned it to the dispatcher (again, Zimmerman had no reason at the time to “lie” to the dispatcher).
Martin never ran until 2 minutes into the tape, which began after both stared at each other. So it was NOT simply shining headlights that “scared” (the key, hidden implied word) Martin into running. The above is not only NOT evidence Martin started running from “fear,” and is strong evidence of the opposite — Martin had no ‘fear’ of Zimmerman. Yet “running” in “fear” of Zimmerman is being incorrectly implied in the statement.
@PeterO
“Zimmerman, on the tape, AT A TIME HE HAD NO MOTIVATION TO “LIE,” said the suspect was coming to “check me out.”
What was his motivation to lie about the money while in jail claiming indigency? None? Ok. But he lied anyway?
Susan,
I wanted to comment on something you said above:
____
You have just admitted you consider Zimmerman’s testimony to be inaccurate and unreliable. Once a witness has testified to be suffering from memory problems that make their recollections incorrect, you don’t get to pick and choose which portions of their testimony can still be considered to be reliable, it is all suspect.
If Zimmerman isn’t able to “remember” what occurred during the fight, then he is not allowed to “remember” how the fight was instigated, either. This goes to the heart of the self-defense claim — how can he possibly support a claim that he was acting in reasonable fear for his life, when he cannot even remember what he was doing during the fight in the first place?
_____
I’d like to hear what an expert on memory says about this. Personally, from a couple of stressful incidents I’ve had in my life, I remember very well the beginning of what happened (that some guy attacked me, and another driver ran me off the road) but my recollection following the beginning of these incidents is a blur.
I read once that people who are held up generally do a much better job of describing the type of weapon that was used than in describing the attacker.
-MM
Susan,
I was once involved in a lawsuit where an inmate claimed that correctional staff assaulted him. The officers gave statements shortly after the incident that the inmate assaulted them and also described the progression of things and how the inmate was restrained.
I reviewed the surveillance video. The officers were accurate about how the assault started, but the remainder of their accounts were off in a number of respects.
So I have no problem in believing that TM punched GZ near the T and that the fight progressed in a way different from GZ remembers.
-MM
-MM
Well MM –
If you think Zimmerman’s telling of the way this murder went down is reasonably flawed (possibly due to injury sustained somewhere) and requires an expert to disprove that Zimmerman’s misremembering is exceptional, I can only remind you that to-date, there have been no reports of DeeDee suffering any injuries that would impair her memory.
While your mileage may vary (as you mentioned above), in EVERY instance I have ever encountered a “fear for my life” situation, I remembered the old fat-fkcs face, facial expressions, movements, reasons for my reactions, etc., but I don’t remember the description of the gun.
Mr. Common Sense,
Please don’t put words in my mouth. I don’t think GZ needs a memory expert. I think we all know that people do not always report stressful events accurately.
I think it would be interesting, however, to see if the mistakes GZ made are consistent with how people generally describe stressful situations.
-MM
I agree with Susan’s analysis, and I also think there’s more to come.
So far, it seems there’s already at least one huge point gained in the prosecution’s favor: it will be easy to demonstrate in court that no one can believe a single word Zimmerman says. That’s HUGE.
If the defense tries to show that Zimmerman just forgets easily and doesn’t intend to lie, then of course we have evidence of deliberate intent to deceive from Zimmerman’s instructions to his wife regarding their bond.
We also know that the prosecution has forensic evidence that Zimmerman’s allegations are false about being smothered and punched repeatedly in the face. This is also HUGE, because this is a major part of Zimmerman’s claim for why he felt he HAD to shoot Trayvon.
Zimmerman had also cleared the sidewalk by now, so he wasn’t getting his head smashed into the concrete. Additional evidence regarding that claim are the tapes of the screaming. The screams are not interrupted as they would be if someone was getting their head smashed on the ground, or if someone were being punched in the face.
The only thing left to Zimmerman’s self-defense claim (of reasonable fear of imminent death) is that he says he “felt” Trayvon reach for the gun. We will have to wait to see if forensics can address this. It’s certainly possible that they can.
And again, I think there’s more to come.
I
Yes. Also, by Zimmerman’s own account (in the reinactment), he fell in the GRASS.
HP,
In a criminal case the issue is not what happened, but what the state can prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
I’ve yet to see the evidence that could persuade a reasonable jury beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ didn’t have the right to use lethal force in self defense. This appears to be the consensus of criminal attorneys that I’ve seen on TV as well.
If GZ got his gun to shoot TM, then why couldn’t TM have gotten the gun in the struggle?
-MM
Well MM, I’m not a forensic expert, but I think a lot depends on where the gun was on Zimmerman’s body. Susan brought up the possibility that it was underneath Zimmerman’s backside. That would certainly make it difficult for Trayvon to get the gun, if he even could see it.
Zimmerman told the detective that Trayvon could not possibly see his gun when Zimmerman reached for his cell phone, because no one had ever been able so far to see that he had a gun. He said his shirt rode up during the fight which is why he thought Trayvon had seen the gun then.
But of course, Zimmerman doesn’t have the best laid out plans for lies, so if the gun was actually holstered behind him during the fight, that might be a detail he disregarded in making his claim that Trayvon reached for it.
Mark Martinson on June 24, 2012 at 4:05 pm said:
“I’ve yet to see the evidence that could persuade a reasonable jury beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ didn’t have the right to use lethal force in self defense. This appears to be the consensus of criminal attorneys that I’ve seen on TV as well.”
Do you know of cases where the defendant claims self-defense but admits he first “squirmed” himself into the danger zone? In this matter, as seen on the reenactment, Zimmerman admits he fell _in the grass_ and then squirmed around apparently away from the grass. He himself moved from the grass into the dangerous concrete which he claims is what caused him to fear for his life — not that most reasonable people buy his story any way.
We don’t have any reason to believe that Trayvon ever came to check Zimmerman out or that Trayvon deviated from his normal path to do so. Zimmerman was consistently trying to convey to the dispatcher that Trayvon had a threatening demeanor. (as in Trayvon “has his hand in his wasteband”. “He’s got something in his hands”, “Now he’s staring at me” “Now he’s coming towards me”).
The only thing we know for sure is that Trayvon made it up to the corner of Twin Trees without any confrontation with Zimmerman, and then Trayvon ran.
My post above is to PeterO.
HP,
Well we have the state’s star witness claiming that TM told her that he was “right by” the house and that he encountered GZ 2 minutes later.
Why didn’t TM go into his house? What was he doing for those two minutes if not searching for GZ?
-MM
A teenager telling another teenager “I’m right by the house, should be taken with not just a grain a salt but the whole can. You have to put yourself in their shoes. How many times have we called our loved ones or jobs, and said that same thing and not even be near that destination.
@Loree —
Exactly! DeeDee’s details are more about what she heard and was told. The precision of her detail is proved by T-Mobile since they recorded the time and length of the call for billing purposes. This is ONE of the smoking gun issues that Zimmerman hadn’t counted which will sink him. He didn’t know the teen was on the phone during the whole time Zimmerman was in pursuit mode. I think Zimmerman, the law student, really thought he’d get by on a “my witness is dead and can’t testify” scheme and just didn’t bank of DeeDee’s overhearing or the phone records of both Trayvon Martin and DeeDee creating two additional sets of unbiased FACTS.
He had his hoodie on the entire time per DD. GZ never knew TM was on the phone. If TM was spotted by GZ coming by 1460 RVC, then he walks to the clubhouse to get out of the rain. He had to be following in the car. Then TM stops at the clubhouse to get out of rain maybe to see if he is just bugging or is this guy really following him. GZ is on his 911 call. Tm still there, he tells DD hey I think this guy is following me. He starts walking he has to pass his car so he says this guy is checking me out. Why? because he has been following him. DD says you should run. Ok maybe he decides ok I’ll run a little to see what this guy does. He looks back as per GZ in reenactment when he got out of his car. Sure enough he gets out to follow him. TM cuts through btwn houses hides wondereing WTF. GZ loses him but knows if he goes to the next street he will cut him off or find him. If you listen to the reenactment at 8:20 forward http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/us/documents-tell-zimmermans-side-in-martin-shooting.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all he says ” I knew if I went to the next street I could see… then he changes it to get an address. What I think he was going to say IMO was ” I kew if I went to the next street I would be able to see him. I won’t go on but you get what I’m saying. I have found that GZ does tell the truth but its TM truth. He changes what Martin does for what he does. Example: Shut the fuck up but when he says it in the reenactmant he doesn’t scream it he says it low, like they way he talks. He had several oppurtunites to identify himself to TM. TM did nothing wrong. He put this kid in a defensive posture which is his right after being watched followed in a car on foot then confronted then pushed (per dd) Even if TM hit first, he was provoked. What John and I think two other witnesses have said yeah they thought it was self defense, had no clue of what he did first, meaning GZ. Of course you are going to say he was all beat up and yeah he defended himself. As we all know now from tapes statements his past and other people coming forward of his propensity towards violence, it makes his case of self defense weak IMO. He has lied where its so easy to dispute. I am still waiting for witnesses 4, 7 and 10. The state held them back. Are they the final piece to the puzzle?
Loree
He’d lost the guy and was chilling on the phone with his girlfriend he’s known since kindergarten. Was that a crime or “suspicious” activity in Zimmerman’s mind, too??
Why didn’t Zimmerman go to Target? Can’t wait to see the M&I video!
The state’s star witness is George Zimmerman.
The problem with this issue for the State is that DeeDee clearly testified to the following in her interview with the prosecutor:
At 9:20 in the interview, DeeDee, after she says Martin ran, says:
DeeDee: “He say he right by his father’s house.” Martin told her
What the prosecutor failed to ask is if Martin WENT INTO THE HOUSE!
I am beginning to suspect that Martin, not only reached Brandy’s unit, but also went inside. Let’s see what DeeDee says when she is better questioned in a deposition. And what the step-brother Chad says occurred once Martin arrived at the unit.
Loree,
If Martin got out out of the rain at the clubhouse he would be on the surveillance video. Also it would have meant that he took cover from the rain after the heaviest rain. If he had taken cover at the mail shed when “DeeDee” says he did, then he would have had to later go back to the house on the shortcut.
And of course Martin might not have told “DeeDee” everything he did. He might have told her a fib. He might have lied to her. He might have been selective in letting her knowing what he was doing. “KDHJDJSSKLKLD the line’s breaking up, I’ll call you back.” He might have put her on mute. “DeeDee” is not a reliable witness of Martin’s activities because she could only hear things that he wanted her to here.
Susan said: “PeterO: Obviously, you did not read my post. Martin was coming from the T path intersection area back to Zimmerman sitting in his car, not the clubhouse area which he came from earlier before the tape began.
PeterO. Review the transcript of the 2/29 interview, above, if you’re too lazy to listen to it.
And tell us again about how Trayvon wasn’t at the clubhouse when the phone call began.”
and here is the transcript excerpt referred to
“Can you pause it for a moment? Okay, when you explained it to me, you said you had pulled over, initially at the clubhouse, correct?
GZ: Yes.
Okay but it seemed so fast, and then I thought you told me, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, I thought you said they asked you can you still see him, and you told them you couldn’t, and you asked, and they said well get to where you can see where he’s at. And you told me it was at that point you moved.
GZ: Yes ma’am.
Now you’re saying he’s coming up to your car, does that mean at this point of the tape you’re already on Twin Trees Ln?
GZ: Um no, I was on, I called when I was at the clubhouse.
Okay but he’s walking up to your car now, right, on the tape?
GZ: Yes ma’am.
‘Cause you’re saying he’s walking up. You’re talking about when you’ve already left the clubhouse and now you’re around the corner?
GZ: No ma’am.
But you’re still at the clubhouse when he does this?
GZ: Yes ma’am, hmm-mm.
Okay.
[0:57][ Zimmerman: Dispatcher: OK–you said it’s 1111 Retreat View? Or 111? Zimmerman: That’s the clubhouse… Dispatcher: That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the–he’s near the clubhouse right now? Yeah, now he’s coming towards me. Dispatcher: OK. Zimmerman: He’s got his hand in his waistband.]
Okay pause it right there. Where are you at now? Are you still at the club house?
GZ: I think I’m still at the club house, yes.”
Response:
1. “Inconsistencies” in Zimmerman’s video vs. dispatcher tape are NOT “LIES” until you can establish a “deliberate intent to deceive.” For that time period, INTENT TO DECEIVE is just NOT there. Up to his parking (you pick the place), Zimmerman (who is not a time traveler) gives the prosecutor as much as he will ever get, which is nothing. He admits both he and Martin were aware of each other from the onset, were staring at each other, he was visibly tracking Martin (whether in ‘front’ or ‘back’ by car makes no difference). So Zimmerman has NO reason to “lie” about those events, leaving simply neutral “inconsistencies.”
2. I already pointed out in my posts that there was a major inconsistency (but not a “lie”) when Zimmerman emphatically says he told the dispatcher at the time he first connected (near or at the clubhouse) that he had lost sight of the suspect. We clearly know from the tape that he doesn’t say that. Does that transform this inconsistency into a “lie?” NOT AT ALL. What is clear is that Zimmerman doesn’t remember that part of events correctly but is confusing them with later things he later said on the tape. THAT’S ALL.
3. Just because Zimmerman is obviously confused about what he said (documented by the tape vs video) only shows he didn’t remember correctly. Obviously, once it is clearly known that he didn’t remember correctly (without any “intent to deceive”) about what he had actually told the dispatcher while at or near the clubhouse, for the questioner to keep him “dangling on the hook” by badgering him on details he already makes clear he didn’t remember accurately, is simply unfair.
The real question is, for that particular part of tracking from the club house, does anything he say differently on the video help him in any way. Not only are his inconsistencies neutral BUT HE CERTAINLY KNOWS A TAPE RECORDING OF WHAT HE ACTUALLY SAID TO THE DISPATCHER EXISTS. YET HE REMEMBERS INCONSISTENTLY. Why didn’t the questioner play the tape for him and ask him about the inconsistencies which are completely innocuous instead of trying to ‘trap’ him in a memory test of matters that have no real significance?
4. The only thing established by the obvious neutral inconsistencies is that they serve as a baseline level for a rate of other expected neutral inconsistencies (but without an intent to deceive). So we can therefore assume there will be other NEUTRAL inconsistencies in other parts of his interviews (assuming intent to deceive cannot be shown). Which turns out to be a completely correct assumption!
It seems that the only thing to conclude when going over the dispatcher tape and the Feb 29 #3 audio is that either #1)Zimmerman did NOT make his call from the clubhouse, but rather from the corner of Twin Trees and he remained there for the duration of the call until he began his pursuit of Trayvon, or #2) Zimmerman was following Trayvon in the vehicle the entire time while Zimmerman was talking to the dispatcher and Trayvon never approached Zimmerman at all.
If either of those 2 scenarios are too difficult for Zimmerman to recall, then he may have some severe schizo tendencies.
Yes!
MarkM earlier asked Susan the following: “Susan, I haven’t had time to look closely at the new evidence. I’ve skimmed this thread and am wondering what is your explanation as to why TM didn’t make it back to the house.
Susan responded: “Susan Simpson on June 24, 2012 at 11:43 am said: No one knows, and we never can no, now.”
However, DeeDee knows:
At 9:20 in the above interview DeeDee, after she says Martin ran, says:
DeeDee: “He say he right by his father’s house.”
A teenager telling another teenager “I’m right by the house, should be taken with not just a grain a salt but the whole can. You have to put yourself in their shoes. How many times have we called our loved ones or jobs, and said that same thing and not even be near that destination
The distance Martin ran, with the T as a starting point (or even 80 feet to the west on the east-west path) to the ‘house’ would only take 15 or so seconds running and DeeDee also said he was out of breath when he stopped and the reason he didn’t run any more from there was because “He say he right by his father’s house.”
How much clearer could it get?
Peter,
Not even GZ can describe the “run” in his audio interview with Serino. It is possible that he told dispatch he’s running now so he he would be justified in his mind for getting out of his car. Just because GZ says he is running doesn’t mean he was actually running. He also said he’s didn’t look like he belong there, he was wrong. He said alot of things about TM that turned out to be wrong. We all know he has the capacity to lie.
Loree, it was DEEDEE who said Martin ran. I am not talking about GZ, only DeeDee.
In her interview, after DeeDee said Martin ran, she said ““HE SAY HE RIGHT BY HIS FATHER’S HOUSE.”
So DEEDEE CONFIRMED WHAT GZ SAID ABOUT MARTIN RUNNING.
ARE YOU NOW SAYING SHE WAS LYING WHEN SHE SAID MARTIN RAN, SO THAT YOU CAN “PROVE” GZ LIED WHEN HE SAID MARTIN RAN TO THE DISPATCHER?
@Peter ,
Thanks for the caps it was much easier to read without glasses! But no I am not saying she is lying. The point I was trying to make was GZ couldn’t describe the run per serino’s interview. DeeDee also stated he ran also. Both parties agreed he ran. The question is how was he running? Was it a fast pace, was it a full on sprint, was it a jog, a walk with a little more pep? She can’t describe it, she wasn’t there she heard him breathing hard. Same thing for GZ. We hear from the 911 call he was breathing hard, dispatcher ask are you following him, yes. Why is when deedee says he ran and was breathing hard its to be assumed he won the 500 yd dash in 5.5 sec. Are you suggesting that all young black males have the speed of gazelles? When Gz is breathing hard on the phone, its just simple following.
If DD heard what she said she heard, she would have called the police that night or certainly when she heard that TM was dead. But it wasn’t until TM’s father got the phone back that it was learned that she was the last person to talk to him.
Team Skittles has given no good explanation for this.
I don’t find DD credible, but the prosecution is stuck with her.
-MM
What’s the number she would have dialed, MM? How does DD know the community name where the murder occurred, MM? What city, MM? What are Trayvon’s parents’ telephone numbers, MM?
WHO IS DEEDEE TO CALL, MM? Please break this down to me like I’m a Zimmerman, MM.
MM,
The cell phone is still in the SPD’s possession. They tried to get in, and T-Mobile told them they could if the they had the PIN. They contacted Tracy Martin, who told him he would have to contact his lawyer.
Mr. Common Sense,
How about 911?
Even if Dee Dee doesn’t call that night because she doesn’t know where TM was staying in any detail, how about contacting her local police when she learns that TM is dead. I imagine they could put her in touch with the local PD or TM’s parents.
-MM
Mark, for a lot of people, calling the police is not their first reaction. I’ve personally been subjected to illegal police actions, including police violence in my home after entry without a warrant, and several years later, a mass illegal strip search videotaped by police.
I’m pretty much over it because these incidents happened years ago, and I know there are good cops and bad cops, but some people do tend to avoid police for good reason.
Right, we are talking about a sixteen year old. MM has to at least put himself in a teenager shoes. The last thing a teenager is going to do is call the police. Most people don’t call 911 or non emergency as many times as GZ. I can say this from experience, most black, spanish people will not call the police.
HP,
You hear your boy/girl friend was shot dead and, based on the conversation you had with him/her the day before, you know the circumstances are suspicious.
You don’t call the police? You don’t want to see the killer investigated if not charged?
-MM
DD only heard why are u following me what r u doing here push phone falls . She DOESN’T hear a shot. Why would she call 911. She called back 2 times per TM phone records. His Dad didn’t know until the next day his child was murdered. Do you honestly think he was going to call DD. He had to deal with a dead TM. His phone was returned a couple of days later. My first thought is not why DD didnt call 911. I don’t care about that right then. I am dealing with a dead kid.
When the family found out that DD was the last person to talk to him. They contacted her through Crump. Her parents, and I give them two thumbs up at protecting her from media. I’m sure she wanted to tell the world what she knew, but her parents first job is to protect their child. So if she didn’t come out right away, I believe it was because the parents were doing their job of protecting their daughter. I’m sure she helped with her testimony to the state. Whether her statement helps their case or not she did what her parents allowed her to do, she is a minor.
MM, I would, but I’m not DeeDee, and I don’t know her response to trauma, or what kind of trauma she’s had to deal with in the past.
For a girl that age, she would probably tell her parents first, and we don’t know what kind of relationship she had with her parents. We don’t know if maybe she did tell her parents, and her parents advised her not to call police because they didn’t want to get involved, for whatever reason.
.
HP,
And wouldn’t her parents have encouraged her to contact the police?
There may be an innocent explanation for this, but I’m struggling hard to find one.
In fact, I think it is much more likely that she didn’t hear anything, or what she heard lead her to believe that it would reflect badly on TM.
BTW, can you put a cell phone of the type TM had “on hold”?
-MM
If Trayvon thought he’d lost Zimmerman, like DeeDee SAYS, maybe Trayvon didn’t feel like he HAD to go into the house.
Dee Dee said it was a couple of minutes LATER (after Trayvon said he was right by his father’s house) that Trayvon said the guy was following him again. Maybe Trayvon thought he was safe now and wandered up to the T again while talking to Dee Dee on the phone. Trayvon may have been grounded up until then and was enjoying his freedom outside his house.
Suddenly, there’s Zimmerman again. All we know is that Trayvon wasn’t right by his house when he was shot.
Maybe . . . maybe . . . maybe.
But in a criminal case these “maybes” have to be resolved in the defendant’s favor.
-MM
MM, Actually, this “maybe” doesn’t have to be resolved, if the prosecution can show beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not have to shoot Trayvon in self-defense.
In that case, it doesn’t even matter if Trayvon punched Zimmerman first. You don’t get to shoot someone to death just because they punched you.
Right by his house is relative. He was much closer to his house than to the clubhouse or the 7-11.
Good point, CommonSense.
Zimmerman went across to RVC, Martin was “right by” where he was staying. After a couple of minutes he may have walked back up to the T and encountered Zimmerman. The second chase seems fabricated. I know he wasn’t going to run because he was tired.
“Right by his house is relative. He was much closer to his house than to the clubhouse or the 7-11.”
“DeeDee”‘s memory might not be reliable because it was so long after the event that she was interviewed. She may have heard things that aren’t so good for Martin’s case, and that is the reason she didn’t do anything then, or even after she heard Martin had died. Now she is stuck rehabilitating his image. She has motivation to lie.
What she heard is dependent on what Martin let her hear. There were apparent 7 calls to “DeeDee” and 4 to others. 3 of the “disconnects” appear to be convenient for Martin. “DeeDee” could have been place on hold, or the phone muted, at other times.
Martin could have lied to her. Or fibbed. If “right by” is relative, then “real close” is relative.
If she didn’t approve of his drug use, then he wouldn’t let her know why he went to the store. If she did approve of his drug use, then she would not remember that part.
@ Peter O
Peter, on June 22 you said:
“Zimmerman, in his video taken in the police car, said he first saw Martin at 1440 Retreat View Circle. The surveillance video from the pool shows Martin sitting there for 10-15 minutes. So Martin, after leaving the pool area, was not going directly ‘home’ but was walking around in the opposite direction (back toward the 7-11) when Zimmerman first saw him and he then started in the direction of ‘home.’ Martin’s movements have to account for his sitting at the pool, as the pool surveillance video shows.”
We all know by now that this “pool video” NEVER showed Trayvon, not for one minute, and certainly not for the 15 minutes you stated!
I am just bringing this back because it is a good example how you continue to make ridiculous statements as if they were FACTS, and many have absolutely no foundation, except for your desire to show Zimmerman in the best possible light, and Trayvon in the worse light possible!
Could you at least recognize that MANY of your statements continue to be proven WRONG, and maybe re evaluate the sources that give you those erroneous information.
By the way, it appears that Trayvon didn’t go directly from the 7/11 back to the Retreat, but went from 7/11 to WALLMART, made the tour of the store ONCE, and headed back to the retreat. . .this may be the reason that it took him longer than “you thought” to walk the distance between the 7/11 and the Retreat.
Please consider taking a good look at whomever feeds you all the wrong information, and ask yourself why.
I didn’t know he went to Walmart. Thanks for the info!
About the “pool video” I immediately corrected that minor error and explained why it had very little to do with the crux of my comment. Search on this page for “PeterO on June 22, 2012 at 5:48 pm said:”
In fact, better evidence than the “pool video” is DeeDee’s statement that Martin was under the “mail shed” which meant he had to be heading AWAY from going home after leaving the “mail shed” and was spotted by Zimmerman at 1440 RVC, right near a house that had been burglarized. Also, Susan said she too was initially fooled by the video. Remove the video part of my comment and the comment’s point remains the same.
It seems to me that Zimmerman may have made up the story about calling from the clubhouse because he didn’t want police to know he was already at the Twin Trees corner when he called the dispatcher. Zimmerman may have realized after the incident that he didn’t have any good reason for going so far out of his way to watch this kid walk home from the store, and he may be attempting to cover himself for overzealousness and profiling.
I think this is why he also originally told the lady detective that the reason he drove to the Twin Trees corner was because the dispatcher told him to drive where he could see Trayvon. That was a lie too, having to do with the same thing. .
In an earlier exchange between MarkM and Susan:
“Who just hangs around in the rain?
-MM
Susan Simpson on June 24, 2012 at 12:25 pm said:
“Someone walking home from the store.
Note that the path Zimmerman says Trayvon took before the “chasing” or “following” occurred is 100% consistent with the path Trayvon would have taken to… walk home from the store.
And DeeDee’s statement is mostly useless for figuring out locations. DeeDee had no idea what the neighborhood looked like, she was just on the phone with Trayvon. She may have tried to interpret what he was saying while looking at a map later, but there is no way for her to have any idea of actual locations.”
However, a key point of DeeDee’s “testimony” — that commentor’s and Susan heavily relied on to “show” Martin was only headed home — is where DeeDee plainly says Martin told her he was waiting out the rain under the “mail shed.” Susan, previously, relied on that statement to presume Martin was acting innocently. The mail shed certainly was in the direct path home from the 7-11.
The problem is that the “mail shed” is far EAST of 1440 RVC where Zimmerman first spotted Martin. So Martin had gone in the OPPOSITE direction from home (by heading West to get to 1440 RVC) after he purportedly left the rain protection of the “mail shed,” where purportedly DeeDee and Martin were so innocently talking.
Maybe DeeDee’s statements are, in all relevant parts, completely made up? Certainly, one about Martin telling her he waited under the mail shed for about 20 minutes?) and then headed directly ‘home’ was certainly made up. Are those considered “lies?”
Moreover, if DeeDee was “looking at a map” then she had to have a name for that location to “look at” on the map which, in this case, would be the very “mail shed” she testified Martin told her was the place he was waiting out the rain at.
“The problem is that the “mail shed” is far EAST of 1440 RVC where Zimmerman first spotted Martin. ”
Peter –
Agreed. This *is* a huge problem for Zimmerman. Zimmerman spotted Trayvon Martin much further west than he let on in his police dispatch call. He later clarifies that he actually harassed Trayvon by car long prior to his chasing Trayvon Martin down.
Yes, I also agree.
But I would like to remind all of you that, only a few days ago, Peter O was bashing the honesty and truthfulness of the young girl, and trying to convince all of us that she was lying when she said or that she didn’t believe that Trayvon was being followed by Zimmerman even before he started running. . .when actually, we now all have the proof that Zimmerman WAS following Trayvon from the first moment he entered the Retreat, near the path that emerges at 1440 RVC and that he slowed his truck enough and stared at Trayvon with enough insistance that he attracted Trayvon’s attention. He then preceeded Trayvon to the parking near the Club House, and became his paranoid comments to the dispatcher about “he is coming towards me, I don’t know what’s wrong with him, he is coming for me. . .etc” when actually Trayvon was just passing by the place where Zimmerman parked! Then, Zimmerman moved the truck, and followed Trayvon at low speed toward the cut through on twin trees lande. . .and parked his car there, observing Trayvon. He started following (and searching ) for Trayvon by foot only when Trayvon “started running” (although, when asked, Zimmerman couldn’t tell if he was running at full speed, jogging, or walking fast!),
But, Dear Peter O was certain that, since Trayvon hadn’t told Dee that Zimmerman had come out of his car and was following him by foot, it was not true that Zimmerman had been following the kid!
I just wish Peter would recognize that someone, some place is feeding him totally misleading information and begin considering the source instead of just repeating bias and stupid scenarios!
CSFC, said: “Zimmerman spotted Trayvon Martin much further west than he let on in his police dispatch call.”
***Where exactly in the dispatcher call did Zimmerman do that? That never happened.
Peter O. ..do you have problems processing information? Is that why you make your own scenarios. . instead of looking at INFORMATION?
Zimmerman showed during the walkthrough were he spotted Trayvon, and it was WELL BEFORE the Clubhouse, well before the mail boxes, and he had been following him since then. Remember? 1440 RVC?
sadanie said: “But I would like to remind all of you that, only a few days ago, Peter O was bashing the honesty and truthfulness of the young girl, and trying to convince all of us that she was lying when she said or that she didn’t believe that Trayvon was being followed by Zimmerman even before he started running”
***I never said that. I believe, even more so now, that DeeDee lied completely on all important points that every commentator against Zimmerman repeatedly assumed happened where those assumptions came only from DeeDee and Crump.
On national TV, DeeDee described an ‘on-foot’ wild, extensive “man-hunt” type multiple chases of Martin by a “crazy man” who was stalking and hunting down a defenseless child and how that child was run down on foot, cornered and attacked by the “crazy man.” NONE OF THAT EVER HAPPENED.
When her phone records are finally released, in addition to the already discussed reasons showing she lied, they will show she was never even on the phone at some of the key times she says she heard events happening.
My comment above related to sadanie saying: “trying to convince all of us that she was lying when she said or that she didn’t believe that Trayvon was being followed by Zimmerman even before he started running”
sandanie says: “Peter O. ..do you have problems processing information? Is that why you make your own scenarios. . instead of looking at INFORMATION?
Zimmerman showed during the walkthrough were he spotted Trayvon, and it was WELL BEFORE the Clubhouse, well before the mail boxes, and he had been following him since then. Remember? 1440 RVC?”
***Apparently, you never read what I said, deliberately misstate it, or do not understand it.
Up until the Zimmerman statements came out, all we had was the dispatcher tape and DeeDee’s bizarre testimony. All the dispatcher tape showed was that for a brief period of time, after exiting his car and after the dispatcher twice told Zimmerman to keep him informed, Zimmerman followed in the direction Martin had disappeared in. He then immediately stopped when the dispatcher advised him not to follow a fleeing suspect. If you, at the time before Zimmerman’s statements were released, had more information, please show it. You cannot because you know you don’t have that evidence!
I, as did everyone else, including Susan, revised our opinions after more evidence came out.
You should think before you made foolish comments but, unfortunately, I don’t see that happening.
Apparently you are the king of foolish comments, Peter, I have no intention of taking that award from you!
No, I didn’t have MORE information than you did. I just had more faith in the fact that a kid who never had a history of violence, and who was just coming back from the store, didn’t have a reason to lie about being followed. . .especially when he ends up dead 8 minutes later!
And, I had more faith in a teenage girl who probably wish she had never heard the name Zimmerman, and had hung up 15 minutes earlier to not be involved in this sad story! She had NO REASON to say that Trayvon told her a “creepy old White guy” had been following him,” and it is OBVIOUS that Zimmerman would NOT have called 911 BEFORE he started following Trayvon. . .that he called 911 only after his paranoia got the best of him. . .and it was obviously BEFORE 7:09, and BEFORE the he reported to the dispatcher that the kid was hanging around at under the cover at the mail boxes!
By the way, I found another inconsistency. I just heard again the interview of Robert Zimmerman, SR and he told the interviewer that Zimmerman had been suspicious of Trayvon because he was “not on the side walk, and on the BACK of the townhouses, where there was no address”
That was obviously wrong, since Zimmerman himself showed the exact place where he saw Trayvon Martin. . .and it was IN FRONT of the 1440 Towhouse. . .OBVIOUSLY there was an address. . .and a house number, and it was the most DIRECT way Trayvon could have taken to his home. . .
He was NOT “hanging around the back of the houses!”
Either Zimmerman, once again, lied to his father, or his father lied for Zimmerman.
Good night Sadanie… catch up with you tomorrow on the thread.
“The problem is that the “mail shed” is far EAST of 1440 RVC where Zimmerman first spotted Martin.”
Well, it’s far east of where Zimmerman *said* he first spotted him.
unitron
When Zimmerman said 1440 RVC, that was the day after the events. He had no crystal ball and had never heard of Crump and crew.
His statement was everything the State could hope for at best — he admits that he followed Martin (one way or the other), Martin knew it from the beginning and they stared at each other. In short, he had no intent to deceive anybody on where he started following Martin, particularly if there were witnesses who may have seen him and Martin the evening of the shooting (it was only 7pm). So, there was no advantage to lying in what he said. And it was to his benefit to tell the truth because witnesses might have seen them..
I so tire of hearing about Dee Dee. She did a good job of remembering what she could considering, she didn’t take notes that night or know that she was going to be involved in such a mess. She’s a teenager girl. Teenage girls don’t want interference in their self consumed lives. I so tire of people bashing her. She is the epitome of asking a blind person “what did you see?” All she could say, is what she could try to remember. I’m sure the prosecution will pull out of her recollection, what they need in order to tie together with what they already know. Really, nothing else about Dee Dee matters. No she’s not lying. She’s involved in something she wants no part of. Something than haunts and frustrates her. Not only is she a valuble witness to something she did not see……but her best friend has been killed and she feels a guilt and sorrow that no Zimmerman supporter seems to want to acknowledge.
Jodi Ann,
What reason is there to think that DD is truthful? At one point during the interview with BDLR she appears quite willing to make up something if it helps the state’s case.
-MM
Exactly! They don’t seem to get that she’s just a little girl — just like any other little teenaged girl except her bff was murdered.
I haven’t mapped out the movements yet. In part it’s because I’m spatially challenged. (I had GPS in my car way back in 2000.)
But clearly TM had been walking in the rain. He’s already soaked. Why not get back to your house as quickly as possible?
GZ, well before he had any reason to think this was going to be a big to do, gave a contemporaneous report of someone acting strange and suspicious. I see no reason to think that he was making this up or exaggerating.
Witness 11 says in her statements that there had a been a string of break-ins in recent months.
-MM
@MM –
“But clearly TM had been walking in the rain. He’s already soaked. Why not get back to your house as quickly as possible?”
That’s essentially the same question SPD Serino asked Zimmerman in his interview #3. Why was George Zimmerman’s story about this unaccounted for time not “suspicious” by you? Zimmerman claims to have spent 84 seconds (1 minute 24 seconds) just standing in the rain getting soaked, not getting back to his car, not seeking shelter (as Trayvon had sense enough to do) and not continuing on to the Target store for groceries (as he claimed he left his house to do).
Do you really not see the duplicity of your suspicions and the different standards you’re applying to a black teen versus a white/hispanic/peruvian adult with black roots? Really?
Mr. Common Sense,
In fact, I do find it “suspicious” that GZ didn’t make it back to the truck. There are a couple other things I find suspicious as well.
But the state will have to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. My suspicions don’t get me close to that point.
-MM
Exactly right CommonSense.
Personally, I see no reason NOT to think GZ makes up everything he’s ever said regarding this entire tragedy.
Calling a teenage girl a liar isn’t going to change that.
HP,
1. If DD heard what she now claims she heard, she – either on her own or at her parents’ prompting – would have gone to the police to help ensure that her boyfriend’s alleged murderer is behind bars.
2. DD was prepared to lie to BDLR if that would help the state’s case.
O’Mara will have an easy time destroying her credibility.
-MM
MM, I apologize if I don’t have a whole lot of faith in your ability to predict DeeDee’s behavior accurately.
The question is whether the jury will believe her, and how much they will appreciate O’Mara attempting to badger a young girl on the witness stand for her memory of a phone call that resulted in the death of a life-long friend.
I really can’t believe anyone thinks the ‘standing out in the rain’ comment means the person observed in said rain must have been ‘suspicious’.
I’ve lived in SoFla for, egad, over 20 years now, just north of where TM lived in Miami Lakes.
It rains a lot, and often the rain comes and goes quickly, it is often only a light sprinkling, and even when it’s heavier than I like without shelter, the kids are often still out in it. It’s water, for God’s sake, not acid, they’ll dry off.
When GZ first commented about that in the video re-enactment, it was at 1460, a long way from TM’s residence. Did it ever occur to GZ that maybe, just maybe, his suspect was ‘looking about’ for a place he might be able to take shelter (like a porch of someplace where the people weren’t home? Y’know, just temporarily).
Personally, I would not have done that. I would just have stayed out and gotten wet.
And apparently been called suspicious.
HP,
DD didn’t act like almost anyone else would have in the same circumstances. And it isn’t just her, it’s her parents if she told them what she heard.
It isn’t badgering to ask someone to explain why he or she delayed reporting something. It isn’t badgering to point out that a witness has already stated the she is willing to lie if it helps the state’s case.
Actually, I think a female attorney will do the cross of DD.
-MM
Marvin. Agree with you about the rain. 🙂 I live in a very wet place myself. If it’s warm enough, once you get really wet, you don’t really care about getting more wet.
CommomSenseforChange challenged me:
“You have to disprove that Martin doubled back to confront Zimmerman to establish a basis for the latter’s guilt.”
Why would anyone have to disprove your theory?
Have you ever been on a jury in a criminal case? The judge instructs you that you need to disprove every theory of innocence in order to find the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Jeralyn has good article tonight on the Florida standards: http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/24/122557/873#27
She also gives links to witness interviews and recommends those for Witness #11 who lives next to John on the corner. In the earlier interview #11 gives her impression that the verbal altercation started slightly west of the T and then continued into the dog walk. It could be that Martin and Zimmerman were still standing and yelling by the time they got to John’s lawn. In the second interview she gives her impression of Zimmerman from her participation in the Home Owners Association.
TM could easily have made it to his home, but didn’t.
Therefore, a reasonable inference is that he doubled back to start a confrontation with GZ.
There are no eyewitnesses (except GZ) as to who started the confrontation and threw the first punch.
Reasonable doubt.
-MM
@MM
“TM could easily have made it to his home, but didn’t.
Therefore, a reasonable inference is that he doubled back to start a confrontation with GZ.”
Another reasonable inference – TM didn’t see GZ get out of his vehicle, so when he started down the dogpath, he stopped near the first cut-through and said “OK, safe now” and continued to talk with DD on phone while wandering about.
Another reasonable inference – TM knew if his follower saw him go down the dogpath, he’d still come running down the dogpath and would see him going to the home at the end of the block where he knew there was no parent home and only a younger boy and he didn’t have a key – he would be leading this strange scary man right to his home, so he ducked into one of the cut-throughs … thought he lost him and continued to talk to DD.
Another reasonable inference – TM thought he lost his follower for whatever reason, and since he was talking to his girl, was in no hurry to go home and just plum didn’t want to.
It is very likely TM came upon GZ by chance rather than design. And the fact that TM didn’t ‘make it home’ is only ‘proof’ that he decided, for whatever reason, not to just run full out home.
It is not proof he must have ‘doubled-back’ with intent to attack the guy who had been following him.
Marvin,
Lots of possible and reasonable inferences, so the jury will have to pick the one that is most favorable to GZ.
And the prosecution’s witness DD says that TM knew he was being following and was “right by” the house. And it wasn’t until two minutes later (at least) that he saw his follower.
-MM
to MarvinM:
Your “reasonable inferences” REQUIRE finding that DeeDee lied since she said Martin told her that “he right by his father’s house.”
Do a page search for my comment and DeeDee interview link at “June 24, 2012 at 4:34 pm ”
At 9:20 in the above interview DeeDee, after she says Martin ran, says:
DeeDee: “He say he right by his father’s house.”
Marvin,
“Another reasonable inference – TM thought he lost his follower for whatever reason, and since he was talking to his girl, was in no hurry to go home and just plum didn’t want to.”
“DeeDee” says he ran so long he was tired because he was breathing hard and he was “right by” his Dad’s house. Why did BDLR try to understand her as saying “by his ass” meaning “Zimmerman was behind him”?
@Ricky Jimenez
Ricky Jimenez on June 24, 2012 at 9:19 pm said:
” In the earlier interview #11 gives her impression that the verbal altercation started slightly west of the T and then continued into the dog walk. It could be that Martin and Zimmerman were still standing and yelling by the time they got to John’s lawn. In the second interview she gives her impression of Zimmerman from her participation in the Home Owners Association.”
Witness #11 made no mention of where the noise started on that fatal night. She completed a written statement that night (2/26/12). Do you think that by 3/2/12, the date of her second interview, that she may have gotten more information from somebody? She’s, after all, on the HOA board.
The witness that called George’s wife and snapped the picture of Zimmerman lives directly across the walkway in the other end unit. George Zimmerman told that witness his side of the story before he told the police anything. Witness #11 also mentions in the same interview of 3/2/12, that her next door neighbor is “the only one who actually saw anything.” How do you think she would have that information?
In the subsequent interview on 3/19/12, FDLE followed up with her to get more detail about what she saw/heard afterwards.
Exactly! We still do not have witness 4, 7 , and 10 statements. the state has not released their information to date. I would love to see their statements and or 911 calls.
With all the relevant data that has been put out regarding gz reenactment. We are going backwards in regards to DD, IMO. She only establishes time of call, what trayvon said about creepy dude following him and what she heard before the phone cut off. That’s it. I’m not saying she isn’t important but what is more intriguing is matching his 911 call, reenactments, and witness 911 calls. Let’s try and focus on current data available. Beating up on DD is not doing any good. The state is not hinging their whole case on a 16 year old girl who was not at the scene.
Some people might prefer not to focus on the recent abundant evidence of Zimmerman’s continuing deception.
We don’t know why Trayvon didn’t go home, but he didn’t have too. We don’t know why Zimmerman was in the cut either because he’s told a couple of different reasons why. At this point, it makes no difference why Trayvon was there since it’s apparant he was near his home, and in the appropriate place for that to be true. However, it’s pretty important for Zimmerman to tell us the truth as to why he was there. Really, the case is based on that, and really that alone.The fight, is obsolete. Who threw down first, has no bearing really, because of Zimmerman placing himself in the cut. With his interference, he places his “perp/ahole” to be in a postiton to either beat him up or to provoke Trayvon to be on defense to defend from his actions. We can’t have people running around taking care of folks in such a way.Even if I had a prision break out in my area….the cops do not want me to go and place myself in a position where the dude can attempt to fight/kidnap/rape/kill me, so I have a reason to shoot him dead. It’s just not how our system works.
“We don’t know why Trayvon didn’t go home”
***But he did according to DeeDee! So you must be rejection DeeDee’s sworn statement to the prosecutor (see my posts above on this issue).
Who cares….he can go to the moon if he wants too, he had no reason to be home.
Wasn’t he supposed to be running in fear from the crazy white guy madman who was hunting him? Wasn’t that the reason he ran towards home, according to DeeDee and everyone who believes her? Or was it?
Peter,
“by his dad’s house” is not synonymous with “at his dad’s house.” The Prosecutor’s assertion is that TM attempted to go home, meaning they found no evidence to the contrary. The word “by” is a relevant phrase especially in the vocabulary of a teenager. “By’ could have meant within visual distance of his destination.
You left out the word “right.” She said: “He say he RIGHT BY by his father’s house.”
“right by” is close enough. How many feet do you estimate that is?
Moreover, the distance Martin ran, with the T as a starting point (or even 80 feet to the west on the east-west path) to the ‘house’ would only take 15 or so seconds running and DeeDee also said he was out of breath when he stopped and the reason he didn’t run any more from there was because “He say he right by his father’s house.”
If he was “right by” why not “walk in” to his father’s house?
Or it could have met someplace in the community where he lived.
Which mean that, as soon as Trayvon entered the Retreat, he was “by his dad’s house,” but he wasn’t IN his dad’s house.
I would imagine that “by his dad’s house” could have mean anything after he turned into the path between the two rows of townhouse.
By the way, I listened again to that comment made by Brandy saying: “he was sitting on the porch,” that some of you (Peter, principaly) tried to turn into an evidence (like the short vs pants theory! LOL!) that Trayvon made it to his dad’s house.
What she met was very clear: WHEN Tracy Martin and Brandy left for dinner, Trayvon was sitting on the porch.”
Can you get over that one at least, now Peter?
sadanie, I already went through a dispute like this with HP. Don’t say I said something when I didn’t. You said:
“I listened again to that comment made by Brandy saying: “he was sitting on the porch,” that some of you (Peter, principaly) tried to turn into an evidence (like the short vs pants theory! LOL!) that Trayvon made it to his dad’s house.”
I never cited to Brandy. So why say I did so? Please show me where I said so.
And, I am still waiting to see the pants vs shorts issue resolved (easy to do when we find out exactly what he was wearing without the current conflict) it may not be important EXCEPT if he was wearing shorts. Why don’t you want to find out to close a loose end?
Most importantly, we will have to find out what Chad and DeeDee say on the matter of Trayvon going into the house after he reached it running. Funny that the prosecutor did not ask DeeDee that after she swore that after running so hard, Trayvon said he wasn’t going to run any more because he was already “right by his father’s house.” Did he go in? Don’t you want to know?
Sadanie,
He was going to run from the back.
He put his hoodie up.
He ran from the back.
He was breathing hard.
He lost him.
He was by his Dad’s place.
Who cares….he had every right to be anywhere he wanted to be.
@ PeterO
Here’s what DeeDee said:
“He said he lost the guy. He said HE RAN FROM THE BACK. He started walking BACK AGAIN, and I told him ‘keep running’. He said he not going to run because he said he was RIGHT BY HIS FATHER’S HOUSE. So, IN A COUPLE OF MINUTES, he said the man following him again – behind him.”
************************
So she said he was right by his father’s house, and thought he’d lost the guy. He wasn’t going to run, because he thought he’d lost the guy and because he was right by his father’s house. That being the case, maybe he didn’t feel like going inside. No one said he HAD to. Then,……….***IN A COUPLE OF MINUTES***, he saw Zimmerman again. During those couple of minutes (or however long it was), he could have wandered from his father’s house to a point 30 or 40 feet south of the T, just to be walking around. He thought he’d lost the guy.
I think the most telling part of “DeeDee”s testimony was that she said that Martin was “by his Da[d]’s House” and BDLR interrupts and says “when you say he was by his ass, he meant that the man [Zimmerman] was right behind him [Martin].”
“DeeDee” proved that she actually knew how to pronounce “No”, and went back to he “ran from the back”, “he lost him”, and “he was by his Dad’s house”.
The part that is not believable is “suddenly he was behind him, and I knew he wasn’t going to run because he was tired, and the old man (you could tell because he was wheezing) ran him down.”
In light of the walk through, the phrase “he ran from the back,” assuming that was not made up by DeeDee, would mean the North/South path because Martin had reached the T intersecting paths then doubled back to circle Zimmerman’s car then again went to the T and ran — which would mean the north/south path is the “back” [of the rows of houses].
Who cares? Trayvon could have walked back and forth 100 times. He had a right to walk, run, jump, skip anywhere he wanted too. George Zimmerman has no authority to tell or make anyone go home, and he sure as hell doesn’t have the authority to chase them there either.
So true Jodi Ann!
My own purpose for giving the actual details of what DeeDee said was to show that there’s no evidence to call DeeDee a liar.
Martin’s scenarios make perfect sense given those actual details of DeeDee’s account.
@ Hapufern:
Hapufern, you say: “Well MM, I’m not a forensic expert, but I think a lot depends on where the gun was on Zimmerman’s body. Susan brought up the possibility that it was underneath Zimmerman’s backside. That would certainly make it difficult for Trayvon to get the gun, if he even could see it.
Zimmerman told the detective that Trayvon could not possibly see his gun when Zimmerman reached for his cell phone, because no one had ever been able so far to see that he had a gun. He said his shirt rode up during the fight which is why he thought Trayvon had seen the gun then.
I agree with Susan, and in fact (I believe I mentionned that yesterday), if you look closely at Zimmerman’s body language when he is demonstrating how he pulled his gun and shot Trayvon, he first shows how his shirt lifted up on his right side (which would already have been hard for Trayvon to notice if he had really been trying to keep Zimmerman pinned down, hitting him, and smothering him all at once, as well as straddling him right at the waist level. . .), but then he shows how Trayvon tried to grab the gun by reaching ACROSS his body. and he make the gesture to pull his gun from THE BACK OF HIS HIP UNDER HIS PANTS.
So, not only was the gun concealed by the shirt and jacket. .. it was also concealed by the pants, AND it was at least partially squeezed between the ground and Zimmerman’s hip. So I do NOT believe that this is the moment when Trayvon saw the gun! In fact, I do not believe that Zimmerman could have reached to the back of his hip if Trayvon had been straddling him at waist level.
I wish there had been a REAL reenactment of the full (alleged) positions of both Zimmerman and Trayvon, and I believe it would have demonstrated that it was physically impossible for Trayvon to see the gun (if it was still in its holster at that time) or for Zimmerman to fire a perfect, direct, straight shot front to back, with no angled trajectory (neither right to left, or from down to up in Trayvon’s chest, as described by the Medical Examiner report) if the two men were struggling (thus . . .moving!).
Susan, is it possible for prosecution to request a reenactment for the jury, using Zimmerman’s words, but having two cops or something demonstrate the reported physical placement of the two men?
Zimmerman was not showing Martin reaching across his body. He was showing himself reaching across his own body to stop Martin’s arm.
Nope! In the interview with Serino, Zimmerman is asked which hand he used to restrain Trayvon’s wrist. . .and he said the right hand. . .and OBVOUSLY Zimmerman could not have grabbed his own gun with his left hand and pull the trigger with his left hand!
And, in the walk through tape, Zimmerman explained that he saw Trayvon’s hand go across his body. . . .
Sadanie,
“And, in the walk through tape, Zimmerman explained that he saw Trayvon’s hand go across his body. . . .”
That is Zimmerman grabbing Martin’s left arm with his left arm.
@ Unitron:
Yes, Unitron, the lack of surveillance videos for that night also really bothers me. In fact, as I was listening to the interview by Serino (don’t remember which part), I really became suspicious (maybe I am getting paranoid too. . .it might be catching!) when Zimmerman, at the request of Serino, gave him the name of the company that manages the cameras, and the name of the video specialist. Zimmerman was able to give his name immediately. . .almost as if he was someone he knew well, and even mentioned that he couldn’t remember his phone number right then. . .
And, his name was either Ken Taylor or Kent Taylor. . .(I wasn’t sure I heard correctly), from Leelan Management, in Orlando. (I am unsure of the spelling of “Leelan”)
This reminded me of the “Ken” who was mentioned so often in the phone calls from jail, and that no one could identify, but that was such a big help to the Zimmermans.
I guess (and, yes, I must be paranoid at this point) if maybe one of those favor might have been to “loose” the videos?
Okay, I checked that company on the web. The exact name is Lelan Management Company, and it has between 50 and 99 employees. There is a Kenneth Taylor working there.
Kent Taylor is listed on the RVC newsletters for important contacts. Its in the discovery dump near the end.
Thanks for the info, Loree. Wonder if those videos have ever been found?
I bet they won’t!
Lol. It would be in his best interest to not tamper with evidence. I don’t think anyone in their right mind will go to jail for GZ.
Except Shellie Zimmerman, you mean?
Yes. Shellie will go down for him. They are like minded people.
Kent Taylor
w/Leland Management @407-781-1181 or ktaylor@lelandmangement.com
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Good catch on the video guy. I caught that also. Hopefully his name will show up in his cell phone records.
Peter O you’re a piece of work. . .and it is not good work!
I for one am getting awfully tired of your spinning of EVERYTHING!
In one paragraph you say that I exagerate because you had NEVER said Dee lied “completely,” And two paragraphs later, in the same post, you say: Once her phone records are release, we will see that she lied and wasn’t on the phone during all the crucial moments!
You’re such a jerk!
And about the pool video. . .NOW that I call you on it, you say that “I immediately corrected that MINOR mistake”. . .when in fact, you ONLY corrected that mistake when several of us asked the exact link to verify what you were saying, and you KNEW that all of us would know you lied!
In addition, NOW you call it a “minor” mistake, with no bearing on anything. . .but then, you were spinning it for all that it was worth, in terms of attacking Trayvon!
I repeat, you’re a jerk.
You must be part of that famous family of liars called Zimmermans!
In the future, when you say I said something, find the quote and put it in quote marks into you comment … and respond as you see fit.
Then you can never be accused of misstating, misquoting, misrepresenting or another of the unpardonable ‘mis’es that you have done in the past.
Hm, Peter, I seem to remember that you continued to accuse me of “misstating” you even after I cut and pasted all of your statements.
It seems to work better to just debate the issues per your suggestion. I know I must have misunderstood some of your posts; and actually, I’m still finding a few of them somewhat difficult to decipher.
But that’s OK.
sadanie, since you INSIST ON NOT READING AND MISREPRESENTING THE ARGUMENT I made in my original post (and yes, minor) correction, insist on arguing by flinging insults, and because it is an important point that disproves the prosecutor’s theory that Martin was going directly home, I will repeat the argument, that is the same with or without the optical illusion on the hard to see pool video (which BTW Susan also was fooled by for a while):
1. Martin left the 7/11 at about 6:30 and almost 40 minutes later he was at 1440 RVC. The distance involved (about .8 mile) should have taken only 15-20 minutes to walk. So where did Martin go for the extra 20-25 minutes?
2. There were two pieces of evidence that he did NOT head straight home — heading straight home is the theory the prosecutor considers so important to his case. One was the pool video and the second was DeeDee’s testimony, accepted by many (including Susan), that Martin was just hanging out at the “mail shed” before walking home at about the time of the dispatcher call. Arguably the “mail shed” argument is WORSE for the prosecution than the pool tape because 1440 RVC is less westward (away from home) from the pool than the mail shed.
3. When someone “called me out” (a ludicrous statement to use) on providing the link, I found it, posted it and looked closely at the video to find a best time to use and realized it was an optical illusion. But my argument that Martin did not head straight home did not need the Pool tape because I had the better proof from DeeDee’s statement that Martin was at the mail shed until about 7:09, which proves Martin went West not East (to home) because he ended up at 1440 RVC, which is even further west of the mail shed than it is of the pool. Removing the pool video didn’t change the conclusion that Martin was NOT going straight home.
You seem incapable of understanding (or deliberately misunderstand) that the purpose of the Pool video was only one way of proving that Martin headed West, not East (so he was not going directly home) and that DeeDee’s statement about Martin being at the “mail shed” also proves Martin headed West, after he left the shed, to end up at 1440 RVC.
PeterO, someone said Trayvon went to Walmart.
HP, that must have been sadanie! She’s fun to argue with!
Florida allows depositions in criminal cases. So both DeeDee and Chad and likely Tracy and Brandy will be deposed before trial.
Wow Sadanie. Good detective work!
Yes, it’s interesting that Zimmerman knew the video camera was broken. Or, from a different perspective, was the camera really broken?
I tend to think it was, since who wants to involve themselves unnecessarily in hiding such evidence? But it’s definitely interesting that Zimmerman knew the cameras were broken. Wow.
As for the gun, there’s still the question in my mind if a struggle for the gun might have commenced earlier, even when Zimmerman and Trayvon first faced off. Did Zimmerman REALLY reach for his cell phone, or did he reach for his gun?
Is this why Trayvon punched him?
What if Trayvon was screaming while holding Zimmerman down so that Zimmerman couldn’t get the gun, but Zimmerman finally got it?
Hapufern, you are copying the theory I put on Susan’s blog and other places, a while ago, that I would use if Martin was on trial for killing Zimmerman. How many times do I have to explain to you, and others here, that with Zimmerman on trial, the prosecution has to disprove all theories of Zimmerman’s innocence? Nobody on this or any other blog, or in the MSM, has come close to that.
Well Ricky, I certainly didn’t intend to copy you. Were you talking about the gun theory? If so, maybe you copied ME! 🙂
Also, I don’t think the prosecution needs to disprove all theories of Zimmerman’s innocence in regards to all events leading up to the shot that killed Trayvon. They just need to disprove the claim of self-defense.